Law School Discussion Forums
https://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/
https://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=312151
From what I can tell, as a junior, becoming a midlevel and then a senior are surefire ways to becoming busier, by a lot. It's because you can run stuff on your own or with minimum oversight, so you become so much more valuable. So you'll have to lead more on matters, lead juniors, etc. There's always no "hiding" on a matter, as you're crucial in pushing things forward. If you drop the ball, you're the one who has to pay the price by pulling allnighters or getting an upset partner in your inbox. It's one of the reasons I'm dipping when I hit that point in my career. I can be a junior forever (sure, it's rote and unstimulating work, but it takes zero brainpower and you have zero responsibility), but the pressure and workload increases as your seniority increases.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Mar 14, 2022 4:33 pmSo, I’m more or less transitioning from Jr. Assoc to more of a midlevel, and I’ve been insanely busy for like the last 9 months. Is it normal to see a major, major uptick in work at this stage, or is it just a function of firms being busy? Basically I’m just trying to gauge expectations going forward.
This is also very true, however. Plenty of times where I was a junior and the midlevel above me was drowning in work whilst I was counting down the clock to go home. Learning how to delegate is of prime importance.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Mar 14, 2022 4:42 pmI have seen midlevels struggle with this transition because they are not good at delegating down work. If you try to do all of the work that a junior could do, plus all of the work that a midlevel needs to do, you are going to have too much work.
I'm sure this varies by group a lot, but on my teams, senior associates run the cases at a high level while midlevels have primary responsibility for certain aspects that they've carved out. While the senior sometimes assigns work to a junior (especially if they aren't busy), the midlevel also should be passing along tasks to juniors. Some midlevels don't realize that they are now at the level that they should delegate to someone else, because juniors don't do that.
At least at my firm probably the 3-5 year period could comfortably be considered “midlevel.” After that you’re a senior associate and then partner or senior counsel, etc.
I think of years 1-3 as junior, 4-6 as midlevel, 7+ as senior. But obviously there's a big difference between a 3rd year and a 1st year. 3rd years could probably be considered midlevels too.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Mar 14, 2022 6:54 pmAt least at my firm probably the 3-5 year period could comfortably be considered “midlevel.” After that you’re a senior associate and then partner or senior counsel, etc.
I'm assuming you're gunning to become partner, but on the off-chance you're not: just breathe. It's okay to not be perfect at your job. Even if you deliver subpar work, you still at least have one or two more laterals in you and continue to make bank for at least three more years and net yourself a nice government/in-house job. Don't work yourself to death for something that isn't going to net you anything aside from even more work and a slim chance at a partnership.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Mar 14, 2022 4:50 pmOP here. I definitely don’t know how to delegate—that’s a helpful observation that I’m supposed to now be giving others work. One problem I see is we just don’t have that many juniors. Often I’m staffed on complex matters and it’s just be and a partner (I’m at an AmLaw100, btw, not a small shop).
I think what kills me isn’t so much the workload, it’s the fact that my work product is suffering since I just don’t have enough time to polish things the way I did as a junior. I built up a good rep in my first few years, and now I feel like I’m undoing that out of sheer business.
For M&A, the difference is this: a third year may or may not have drafted major transaction documents, but a fourth year must have drafted major transaction documents. From fifth year until you make partner, the tasks you get to handle are pretty much alway the same, and expectations are similar. But a fifth year is still mostly learning new things and is not fully comfortable with most tasks he/she handles. I would say given the high volume of deals these days, a 6th year can be considered a senior associate that's comfortable with most of his drafting work. In fact, these days even 8th years make non-equity partner or counsel.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:37 pmI think of years 1-3 as junior, 4-6 as midlevel, 7+ as senior. But obviously there's a big difference between a 3rd year and a 1st year. 3rd years could probably be considered midlevels too.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Mar 14, 2022 6:54 pmAt least at my firm probably the 3-5 year period could comfortably be considered “midlevel.” After that you’re a senior associate and then partner or senior counsel, etc.
Lol. OP here. Been around TLS for, idk, six years or so. Glad to see most threads still devolve into semi-relevant nitpicking. Not being sarcastic, I’m genuinely amused.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 6:34 amFor M&A, the difference is this: a third year may or may not have drafted major transaction documents, but a fourth year must have drafted major transaction documents. From fifth year until you make partner, the tasks you get to handle are pretty much alway the same, and expectations are similar. But a fifth year is still mostly learning new things and is not fully comfortable with most tasks he/she handles. I would say given the high volume of deals these days, a 6th year can be considered a senior associate that's comfortable with most of his drafting work. In fact, these days even 8th years make non-equity partner or counsel.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:37 pmI think of years 1-3 as junior, 4-6 as midlevel, 7+ as senior. But obviously there's a big difference between a 3rd year and a 1st year. 3rd years could probably be considered midlevels too.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Mar 14, 2022 6:54 pmAt least at my firm probably the 3-5 year period could comfortably be considered “midlevel.” After that you’re a senior associate and then partner or senior counsel, etc.
Since 7th years at Kirkland are nominally “partners,” a (real) partner here told me that years 1-2 are juniors, 3-4 are midlevel, and 5-6 are senior associates. I don’t think there’s much of an argument that a fifth year is a senior associate, but it goes to show that the nomenclature is kind of worthless when firms mess with the idea of when “partner” level starts. The 1-3, 4-6, 7+ breakdown works under the still dominant biglaw format of partnership consideration beginning at year 10.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 6:34 amFor M&A, the difference is this: a third year may or may not have drafted major transaction documents, but a fourth year must have drafted major transaction documents. From fifth year until you make partner, the tasks you get to handle are pretty much alway the same, and expectations are similar. But a fifth year is still mostly learning new things and is not fully comfortable with most tasks he/she handles. I would say given the high volume of deals these days, a 6th year can be considered a senior associate that's comfortable with most of his drafting work. In fact, these days even 8th years make non-equity partner or counsel.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:37 pmI think of years 1-3 as junior, 4-6 as midlevel, 7+ as senior. But obviously there's a big difference between a 3rd year and a 1st year. 3rd years could probably be considered midlevels too.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Mar 14, 2022 6:54 pmAt least at my firm probably the 3-5 year period could comfortably be considered “midlevel.” After that you’re a senior associate and then partner or senior counsel, etc.
Delegate more. I know it can be difficult to let go of work but you have to. Worry a bit less about making sure everything is perfect (don't just totally re-do every task you have a junior do). Also if you find a junior you like try to ask for them on your deals going forward (helps if they like you...do your best to protect them from BS above you, and don't give them stuff on Friday afternoon if you can help it, try to teach them what you know, maybe take them out for lunch/drinks). Also if you find a good senior (who does their fair share of work or more, manages the deal well, etc.)...try to make sure they like you and want you on their deals. Work really hard on the first deal you have with them and that first impression will go a long way (on the flip side...consider slacking off a bit if you find yourself on a deal with a senior you don't like).Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Mar 14, 2022 4:33 pmSo, I’m more or less transitioning from Jr. Assoc to more of a midlevel, and I’ve been insanely busy for like the last 9 months. Is it normal to see a major, major uptick in work at this stage, or is it just a function of firms being busy? Basically I’m just trying to gauge expectations going forward.
As a CapM 6th year - it is absolutely possible to hide as a midlevel, depending on practice area and staffing. I've done it on deals when I was swamped, had already hit hours, or was about to leave the firm. Delegate as much as possible down and don't jump on things sent to the whole team if you can help it (helps to have a solid 2nd+ year on the deal). I also have definitely been on deals with seniors who were hiding (essentially just had me run the deal for them).Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Mar 14, 2022 4:44 pmFrom what I can tell, as a junior, becoming a midlevel and then a senior are surefire ways to becoming busier, by a lot. It's because you can run stuff on your own or with minimum oversight, so you become so much more valuable. So you'll have to lead more on matters, lead juniors, etc. There's always no "hiding" on a matter, as you're crucial in pushing things forward. If you drop the ball, you're the one who has to pay the price by pulling allnighters or getting an upset partner in your inbox. It's one of the reasons I'm dipping when I hit that point in my career. I can be a junior forever (sure, it's rote and unstimulating work, but it takes zero brainpower and you have zero responsibility), but the pressure and workload increases as your seniority increases.
Anyways, that's my take. Again, I'm a junior, so not positive on this.
OP here, thanks for the feedback, I genuinely appreciate it. On a separate note, I’m lit not corp—not sure why everyone assumed the opposite?Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 3:11 pmDelegate more. I know it can be difficult to let go of work but you have to. Worry a bit less about making sure everything is perfect (don't just totally re-do every task you have a junior do). Also if you find a junior you like try to ask for them on your deals going forward (helps if they like you...do your best to protect them from BS above you, and don't give them stuff on Friday afternoon if you can help it, try to teach them what you know, maybe take them out for lunch/drinks). Also if you find a good senior (who does their fair share of work or more, manages the deal well, etc.)...try to make sure they like you and want you on their deals. Work really hard on the first deal you have with them and that first impression will go a long way (on the flip side...consider slacking off a bit if you find yourself on a deal with a senior you don't like).Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Mar 14, 2022 4:33 pmSo, I’m more or less transitioning from Jr. Assoc to more of a midlevel, and I’ve been insanely busy for like the last 9 months. Is it normal to see a major, major uptick in work at this stage, or is it just a function of firms being busy? Basically I’m just trying to gauge expectations going forward.
As a CapM 6th year - it is absolutely possible to hide as a midlevel, depending on practice area and staffing. I've done it on deals when I was swamped, had already hit hours, or was about to leave the firm. Delegate as much as possible down and don't jump on things sent to the whole team if you can help it (helps to have a solid 2nd+ year on the deal). I also have definitely been on deals with seniors who were hiding (essentially just had me run the deal for them).Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Mar 14, 2022 4:44 pmFrom what I can tell, as a junior, becoming a midlevel and then a senior are surefire ways to becoming busier, by a lot. It's because you can run stuff on your own or with minimum oversight, so you become so much more valuable. So you'll have to lead more on matters, lead juniors, etc. There's always no "hiding" on a matter, as you're crucial in pushing things forward. If you drop the ball, you're the one who has to pay the price by pulling allnighters or getting an upset partner in your inbox. It's one of the reasons I'm dipping when I hit that point in my career. I can be a junior forever (sure, it's rote and unstimulating work, but it takes zero brainpower and you have zero responsibility), but the pressure and workload increases as your seniority increases.
Anyways, that's my take. Again, I'm a junior, so not positive on this.
Also I will say - for the most part I greatly prefer being a midlevel to being a junior. Not being at the bottom of the totem pole is soooo nice. Lets you dodge the tasks you really don't want to do and gives you significantly more control over your workflow, at least in my experience.
Everyone in corp on this site assumes everyone else on this site is in corpAnonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:55 amOP here, thanks for the feedback, I genuinely appreciate it. On a separate note, I’m lit not corp—not sure why everyone assumed the opposite?Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 3:11 pmDelegate more. I know it can be difficult to let go of work but you have to. Worry a bit less about making sure everything is perfect (don't just totally re-do every task you have a junior do). Also if you find a junior you like try to ask for them on your deals going forward (helps if they like you...do your best to protect them from BS above you, and don't give them stuff on Friday afternoon if you can help it, try to teach them what you know, maybe take them out for lunch/drinks). Also if you find a good senior (who does their fair share of work or more, manages the deal well, etc.)...try to make sure they like you and want you on their deals. Work really hard on the first deal you have with them and that first impression will go a long way (on the flip side...consider slacking off a bit if you find yourself on a deal with a senior you don't like).Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Mar 14, 2022 4:33 pmSo, I’m more or less transitioning from Jr. Assoc to more of a midlevel, and I’ve been insanely busy for like the last 9 months. Is it normal to see a major, major uptick in work at this stage, or is it just a function of firms being busy? Basically I’m just trying to gauge expectations going forward.
As a CapM 6th year - it is absolutely possible to hide as a midlevel, depending on practice area and staffing. I've done it on deals when I was swamped, had already hit hours, or was about to leave the firm. Delegate as much as possible down and don't jump on things sent to the whole team if you can help it (helps to have a solid 2nd+ year on the deal). I also have definitely been on deals with seniors who were hiding (essentially just had me run the deal for them).Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Mar 14, 2022 4:44 pmFrom what I can tell, as a junior, becoming a midlevel and then a senior are surefire ways to becoming busier, by a lot. It's because you can run stuff on your own or with minimum oversight, so you become so much more valuable. So you'll have to lead more on matters, lead juniors, etc. There's always no "hiding" on a matter, as you're crucial in pushing things forward. If you drop the ball, you're the one who has to pay the price by pulling allnighters or getting an upset partner in your inbox. It's one of the reasons I'm dipping when I hit that point in my career. I can be a junior forever (sure, it's rote and unstimulating work, but it takes zero brainpower and you have zero responsibility), but the pressure and workload increases as your seniority increases.
Anyways, that's my take. Again, I'm a junior, so not positive on this.
Also I will say - for the most part I greatly prefer being a midlevel to being a junior. Not being at the bottom of the totem pole is soooo nice. Lets you dodge the tasks you really don't want to do and gives you significantly more control over your workflow, at least in my experience.
That’s good to hear. I was worried I dropped too many “bro” references into my post or something.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:14 amEveryone in corp on this site assumes everyone else on this site is in corpAnonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:55 amOP here, thanks for the feedback, I genuinely appreciate it. On a separate note, I’m lit not corp—not sure why everyone assumed the opposite?Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 3:11 pmDelegate more. I know it can be difficult to let go of work but you have to. Worry a bit less about making sure everything is perfect (don't just totally re-do every task you have a junior do). Also if you find a junior you like try to ask for them on your deals going forward (helps if they like you...do your best to protect them from BS above you, and don't give them stuff on Friday afternoon if you can help it, try to teach them what you know, maybe take them out for lunch/drinks). Also if you find a good senior (who does their fair share of work or more, manages the deal well, etc.)...try to make sure they like you and want you on their deals. Work really hard on the first deal you have with them and that first impression will go a long way (on the flip side...consider slacking off a bit if you find yourself on a deal with a senior you don't like).Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Mar 14, 2022 4:33 pmSo, I’m more or less transitioning from Jr. Assoc to more of a midlevel, and I’ve been insanely busy for like the last 9 months. Is it normal to see a major, major uptick in work at this stage, or is it just a function of firms being busy? Basically I’m just trying to gauge expectations going forward.
As a CapM 6th year - it is absolutely possible to hide as a midlevel, depending on practice area and staffing. I've done it on deals when I was swamped, had already hit hours, or was about to leave the firm. Delegate as much as possible down and don't jump on things sent to the whole team if you can help it (helps to have a solid 2nd+ year on the deal). I also have definitely been on deals with seniors who were hiding (essentially just had me run the deal for them).Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Mar 14, 2022 4:44 pmFrom what I can tell, as a junior, becoming a midlevel and then a senior are surefire ways to becoming busier, by a lot. It's because you can run stuff on your own or with minimum oversight, so you become so much more valuable. So you'll have to lead more on matters, lead juniors, etc. There's always no "hiding" on a matter, as you're crucial in pushing things forward. If you drop the ball, you're the one who has to pay the price by pulling allnighters or getting an upset partner in your inbox. It's one of the reasons I'm dipping when I hit that point in my career. I can be a junior forever (sure, it's rote and unstimulating work, but it takes zero brainpower and you have zero responsibility), but the pressure and workload increases as your seniority increases.
Anyways, that's my take. Again, I'm a junior, so not positive on this.
Also I will say - for the most part I greatly prefer being a midlevel to being a junior. Not being at the bottom of the totem pole is soooo nice. Lets you dodge the tasks you really don't want to do and gives you significantly more control over your workflow, at least in my experience.