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Is it difficult to change law firms once you're counsel at one?
Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 11:48 pm
by Anonymous User
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Re: Is it difficult to change law firms once you're counsel at one?
Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2022 10:12 am
by Anonymous User
Not in this market. I've seen lots of movement at the counsel and service partner levels. IMO counsels have it better than 10th year associates since firms will wonder why they haven't been promoted (even though it can be outside of their control).
That said hiring obviously works a lot differently at the counsel level. It's not like being a midlevel where you can line up 10 interviews immediately if you want to (in some practices). Most firms don't advertise counsel roles and you'll likely need to work through a good recruiter.
Re: Is it difficult to change law firms once you're counsel at one?
Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2022 5:43 pm
by Anonymous User
Probably harder than being an associate, but not by much given the market. I moved as a counsel last year to a service partner role at another firm.
Re: Is it difficult to change law firms once you're counsel at one?
Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2022 9:55 am
by Anonymous User
Difficult? Maybe not in the sense that you're thinking. From what I've seen, very easy to get a counsel position at another firm.
The question is whether when you change firms whether you'll go from counsel to partner. The second question is whether your comp will be appreciably higher at the type of firm that is lateraling counsel into a partner. For example, if you're at a v5 but won't make partner there, does it make more sense to career counsel at v5 or be an insta-partner at a v50 or something? Which makes more money? Is there that lucrative partner possibility at the v5 being given up?
Re: Is it difficult to change law firms once you're counsel at one?
Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2022 10:55 am
by Moneytrees
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Mar 11, 2022 9:55 am
Difficult? Maybe not in the sense that you're thinking. From what I've seen, very easy to get a counsel position at another firm.
The question is whether when you change firms whether you'll go from counsel to partner. The second question is whether your comp will be appreciably higher at the type of firm that is lateraling counsel into a partner. For example, if you're at a v5 but won't make partner there, does it make more sense to career counsel at v5 or be an insta-partner at a v50 or something? Which makes more money? Is there that lucrative partner possibility at the v5 being given up?
Not sure why someone who wouldn't make partner at a V5 would be deemed to be "insta partner" material at a V50.
Re: Is it difficult to change law firms once you're counsel at one?
Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 5:01 pm
by Anonymous User
Moneytrees wrote: ↑Fri Mar 11, 2022 10:55 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Mar 11, 2022 9:55 am
Difficult? Maybe not in the sense that you're thinking. From what I've seen, very easy to get a counsel position at another firm.
The question is whether when you change firms whether you'll go from counsel to partner. The second question is whether your comp will be appreciably higher at the type of firm that is lateraling counsel into a partner. For example, if you're at a v5 but won't make partner there, does it make more sense to career counsel at v5 or be an insta-partner at a v50 or something? Which makes more money? Is there that lucrative partner possibility at the v5 being given up?
Not sure why someone who wouldn't make partner at a V5 would be deemed to be "insta partner" material at a V50.
I can only speak for my experience but I was at a v15 where several of the new partners in my group were v5 senior associates (who presumably weren't going to make partner) that lateraled over as counsel for a year or two then were made partner.
My understanding is that there are many "lower ranked" firms that the business model relies on "higher ranked" associates to trickle down to become partner
Re: Is it difficult to change law firms once you're counsel at one?
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2022 7:22 am
by BiglawAssociateDC
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Mar 12, 2022 5:01 pm
Moneytrees wrote: ↑Fri Mar 11, 2022 10:55 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Mar 11, 2022 9:55 am
Difficult? Maybe not in the sense that you're thinking. From what I've seen, very easy to get a counsel position at another firm.
The question is whether when you change firms whether you'll go from counsel to partner. The second question is whether your comp will be appreciably higher at the type of firm that is lateraling counsel into a partner. For example, if you're at a v5 but won't make partner there, does it make more sense to career counsel at v5 or be an insta-partner at a v50 or something? Which makes more money? Is there that lucrative partner possibility at the v5 being given up?
Not sure why someone who wouldn't make partner at a V5 would be deemed to be "insta partner" material at a V50.
I can only speak for my experience but I was at a v15 where several of the new partners in my group were v5 senior associates (who presumably weren't going to make partner) that lateraled over as counsel for a year or two then were made partner.
My understanding is that there are many "lower ranked" firms that the business model relies on "higher ranked" associates to trickle down to become partner
This is not true at all, from what I've seen. Making partner is a case-by-case analysis. No one gives 2 shits about the firm you came from. They care about whether you can sustain a profitable practice for the firm. To the extent people from "v5" firms are more like to make partner, it's pure correlation rather than causation. I assume people who can get associate jobs at "v5" firms are generally smart and hard working, so it's perhaps unsurprising that some of them eventually make partner somewhere.
Re: Is it difficult to change law firms once you're counsel at one?
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2022 9:41 pm
by Anonymous User
I'm at a v50 and a disproportionately high number of partners started out at v10s. One thing I've noticed in particular is KE "partners" lateraling into real partnership positions. You can deny that it's happening until you're blue in the face, but yeah it's a thing. There's also homegrown partners of course.
Re: Is it difficult to change law firms once you're counsel at one?
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2022 11:04 pm
by BiglawAssociateDC
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 9:41 pm
I'm at a v50 and a disproportionately high number of partners started out at v10s. One thing I've noticed in particular is KE "partners" lateraling into real partnership positions. You can deny that it's happening until you're blue in the face, but yeah it's a thing. There's also homegrown partners of course.
Obviously it happens. No one could disagree with that. I'm disagreeing with the premise that any law firm's business model is somehow contingent on associates or income partners joining from other, higher ranked Vault firms. There is a need for attorneys who will make the firm profitable. A huge source of those attorneys is other law firms, particularly higher "ranked" law firms. But it's pure correlation. If they all came from shitlaw or government or Mars, my firm wouldn't care as long as they can bring in business and do good work.
Re: Is it difficult to change law firms once you're counsel at one?
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2022 11:23 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 9:41 pm
I'm at a v50 and a disproportionately high number of partners started out at v10s. One thing I've noticed in particular is KE "partners" lateraling into real partnership positions. You can deny that it's happening until you're blue in the face, but yeah it's a thing. There's also homegrown partners of course.
I mean, is this a surprise? Your DPW/CSM associates are going to be overall more intelligent and more driven than their counterparts at v30 firms, and it makes a lot of sense that if they can't quite pull off v5 partnership they would comfortably glide into v30 partnership. The real question is whether that is actually much of an accomplishment for them, given that they are narrowly losing out on $2 million+ guaranteed for life in exchange for a much shakier ride at a v30, where your book is going to play much more of a role in your long term comp, and many of these folks are not the most personable.
Re: Is it difficult to change law firms once you're counsel at one?
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2022 11:30 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 11:23 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 9:41 pm
I'm at a v50 and a disproportionately high number of partners started out at v10s. One thing I've noticed in particular is KE "partners" lateraling into real partnership positions. You can deny that it's happening until you're blue in the face, but yeah it's a thing. There's also homegrown partners of course.
I mean, is this a surprise? Your DPW/CSM associates are going to be overall more intelligent and more driven than their counterparts at v30 firms, and it makes a lot of sense that if they can't quite pull off v5 partnership they would comfortably glide into v30 partnership. The real question is whether that is actually much of an accomplishment for them, given that they are narrowly losing out on $2 million+ guaranteed for life in exchange for a much shakier ride at a v30, where your book is going to play much more of a role in your long term comp, and many of these folks are not the most personable.
Idk seems like making 600-800k is a good outcome, especially when the alternative is 250 inhouse. "not the most personable" is a really weird swipe? W/e
In any case, my main takeaway from the situation is that it's just really hard to make partner at a lower ranked firm. You're competing with people from outside the firm as well.
Re: Is it difficult to change law firms once you're counsel at one?
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2022 11:36 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 11:30 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 11:23 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 9:41 pm
I'm at a v50 and a disproportionately high number of partners started out at v10s. One thing I've noticed in particular is KE "partners" lateraling into real partnership positions. You can deny that it's happening until you're blue in the face, but yeah it's a thing. There's also homegrown partners of course.
I mean, is this a surprise? Your DPW/CSM associates are going to be overall more intelligent and more driven than their counterparts at v30 firms, and it makes a lot of sense that if they can't quite pull off v5 partnership they would comfortably glide into v30 partnership. The real question is whether that is actually much of an accomplishment for them, given that they are narrowly losing out on $2 million+ guaranteed for life in exchange for a much shakier ride at a v30, where your book is going to play much more of a role in your long term comp, and many of these folks are not the most personable.
Idk seems like making 600-800k is a good outcome, especially when the alternative is 250 inhouse. "not the most personable" is a really weird swipe? W/e
In any case, my main takeaway from the situation is that it's just really hard to make partner at a lower ranked firm. You're competing with people from outside the firm as well.
Is 600-800k with a miserable lifestyle really a good outcome for someone who was near the top of their class at HLS and up for partner at a place with 1st year equity partner comp of $2 million+? Seems like a pretty shabby outcome given that the lifestyle is pretty much just as bad.
Disagree on it being hard to make partner at these random v30 firms. The guys who glide through from v5s def would make partner if they started at the v30, and people at the v30 who are competent should comfortable make partner as well.
'
The problem though with these v30 is that the ROI is trash unless you are a rainmaker. And at least for corporate in house at a senior level can be 450k+ starting, often a better overall deal than partner at a random v30.
Re: Is it difficult to change law firms once you're counsel at one?
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2022 11:59 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 11:36 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 11:30 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 11:23 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 9:41 pm
I'm at a v50 and a disproportionately high number of partners started out at v10s. One thing I've noticed in particular is KE "partners" lateraling into real partnership positions. You can deny that it's happening until you're blue in the face, but yeah it's a thing. There's also homegrown partners of course.
I mean, is this a surprise? Your DPW/CSM associates are going to be overall more intelligent and more driven than their counterparts at v30 firms, and it makes a lot of sense that if they can't quite pull off v5 partnership they would comfortably glide into v30 partnership. The real question is whether that is actually much of an accomplishment for them, given that they are narrowly losing out on $2 million+ guaranteed for life in exchange for a much shakier ride at a v30, where your book is going to play much more of a role in your long term comp, and many of these folks are not the most personable.
Idk seems like making 600-800k is a good outcome, especially when the alternative is 250 inhouse. "not the most personable" is a really weird swipe? W/e
In any case, my main takeaway from the situation is that it's just really hard to make partner at a lower ranked firm. You're competing with people from outside the firm as well.
Is 600-800k with a miserable lifestyle really a good outcome for someone who was near the top of their class at HLS and up for partner at a place with 1st year equity partner comp of $2 million+? Seems like a pretty shabby outcome given that the lifestyle is pretty much just as bad.
Disagree on it being hard to make partner at these random v30 firms. The guys who glide through from v5s def would make partner if they started at the v30, and people at the v30 who are competent should comfortable make partner as well.
'
The problem though with these v30 is that the ROI is trash unless you are a rainmaker. And at least for corporate in house at a senior level can be 450k+ starting, often a better overall deal than partner at a random v30.
I guess the way I see it, "up for partner" is meaningless if you don't make partner. Of course it's better to make partner at the better firm. Also I'm not sure why you think the typical senior associate at a V10 was top of class at HLS. I see mostly ppl with similar credentials to my firm, maybe a little bit more impressive (but 10 years into your career, you should be relying on the decade of experience, not stale credentials).
It's just basic math that it's harder to make partner at a lower ranked firm. Let's make up some numbers:
Firm A: out of a class of 100, 10 will make partner.
Firm B: out of a class of 100, 5 will make partner, and 5 will lateral in from Firm A.
Re: Is it difficult to change law firms once you're counsel at one?
Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2022 12:20 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 11:59 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 11:36 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 11:30 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 11:23 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 9:41 pm
I'm at a v50 and a disproportionately high number of partners started out at v10s. One thing I've noticed in particular is KE "partners" lateraling into real partnership positions. You can deny that it's happening until you're blue in the face, but yeah it's a thing. There's also homegrown partners of course.
I mean, is this a surprise? Your DPW/CSM associates are going to be overall more intelligent and more driven than their counterparts at v30 firms, and it makes a lot of sense that if they can't quite pull off v5 partnership they would comfortably glide into v30 partnership. The real question is whether that is actually much of an accomplishment for them, given that they are narrowly losing out on $2 million+ guaranteed for life in exchange for a much shakier ride at a v30, where your book is going to play much more of a role in your long term comp, and many of these folks are not the most personable.
Idk seems like making 600-800k is a good outcome, especially when the alternative is 250 inhouse. "not the most personable" is a really weird swipe? W/e
In any case, my main takeaway from the situation is that it's just really hard to make partner at a lower ranked firm. You're competing with people from outside the firm as well.
Is 600-800k with a miserable lifestyle really a good outcome for someone who was near the top of their class at HLS and up for partner at a place with 1st year equity partner comp of $2 million+? Seems like a pretty shabby outcome given that the lifestyle is pretty much just as bad.
Disagree on it being hard to make partner at these random v30 firms. The guys who glide through from v5s def would make partner if they started at the v30, and people at the v30 who are competent should comfortable make partner as well.
'
The problem though with these v30 is that the ROI is trash unless you are a rainmaker. And at least for corporate in house at a senior level can be 450k+ starting, often a better overall deal than partner at a random v30.
I guess the way I see it, "up for partner" is meaningless if you don't make partner. Of course it's better to make partner at the better firm. Also I'm not sure why you think the typical senior associate at a V10 was top of class at HLS. I see mostly ppl with similar credentials to my firm, maybe a little bit more impressive (but 10 years into your career, you should be relying on the decade of experience, not stale credentials).
It's just basic math that it's harder to make partner at a lower ranked firm. Let's make up some numbers:
Firm A: out of a class of 100, 10 will make partner.
Firm B: out of a class of 100, 5 will make partner, and 5 will lateral in from Firm A.
Go look through the DPW roster and compare it to your v30 - the difference in credentials is going to be enormous. And don't kid yourself, credentials are enormously important at top firms (again, look through the DPW partner credentials and just see how covered in ivy the place is).
Your math is strange through. Is it harder to be top 5% at Fordham than top 20% at Harvard? Mathematically, sure, but in reality anyone top 20% at Harvard is tearing though Fordham like a knife through hot butter.
Similarly, would think much easier to make partner at a v30, since your competition is just not going to be as strong.
Re: Is it difficult to change law firms once you're counsel at one?
Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2022 6:30 pm
by Monochromatic Oeuvre
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 11:59 pm
It's just basic math that it's harder to make partner at a lower ranked firm. Let's make up some numbers:
Firm A: out of a class of 100, 10 will make partner.
Firm B: out of a class of 100, 5 will make partner, and 5 will lateral in from Firm A.
It's not an apples-to-apples comparison. The average V20 is levered significantly more than the average firm doing slip and falls in Podunk. Pure math makes things more difficult even if the standards for work product weren't significantly higher.