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Know too PI guys can make bank just wanted some figures on some top family attorneys.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 03, 2022 9:57 pm

Know too PI guys can make bank just wanted some figures on some top family attorneys.

How much is a lot? Eventually making low/mid six figures is realistic enough if you can build a practice, get lots of work, maybe take on a few associates/paralegals to maximize your throughput.

A problem with family law is that it's hard to scale beyond that size (whereas PI is a volume practice where one can aspire to adverts on billboards and double-digit firm size). So you're never going to break out from getting paid for work you're actually able to do in a workweek. Even if you're a rockstar who can bill above-market rates, those rates are still hourly; the math just isn't there to gross seven figures, let alone "make" that much as an individual.

The Lsat Airbender wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 04, 2022 11:48 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 03, 2022 9:57 pm

Know too PI guys can make bank just wanted some figures on some top family attorneys.

How much is a lot? Eventually making low/mid six figures is realistic enough if you can build a practice, get lots of work, maybe take on a few associates/paralegals to maximize your throughput.

A problem with family law is that it's hard to scale beyond that size (whereas PI is a volume practice where one can aspire to adverts on billboards and double-digit firm size). So you're never going to break out from getting paid for work you're actually able to do in a workweek. Even if you're a rockstar who can bill above-market rates, those rates are still hourly; the math just isn't there to gross seven figures, let alone "make" that much as an individual.

The exception to this is HNW divorces.

You can make a lot... of people unhappy!

The Lsat Airbender wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 04, 2022 11:48 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 03, 2022 9:57 pm

Know too PI guys can make bank just wanted some figures on some top family attorneys.

How much is a lot? Eventually making low/mid six figures is realistic enough if you can build a practice, get lots of work, maybe take on a few associates/paralegals to maximize your throughput.

A problem with family law is that it's hard to scale beyond that size (whereas PI is a volume practice where one can aspire to adverts on billboards and double-digit firm size). So you're never going to break out from getting paid for work you're actually able to do in a workweek. Even if you're a rockstar who can bill above-market rates, those rates are still hourly; the math just isn't there to gross seven figures, let alone "make" that much as an individual.

Math seems easy enough, though? Let's say you have 4 associates you pay $150k each (call it $200k with healthcare, FICO, etc..) who bill 1500 hours a year at $400 an hour, and 75% is collected. And then also you, superstar founding partner, bill 1500 at $600 with same recovery. I'll even add 2 paralegals and a secretary as expenses ($150k total) and assume you don't collect any of their billables. That's $2.5 gross, $1.5 million after payroll. Is that an unreasonable model for a successful practice?

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 04, 2022 6:02 pm

The Lsat Airbender wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 04, 2022 11:48 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 03, 2022 9:57 pm

Know too PI guys can make bank just wanted some figures on some top family attorneys.

How much is a lot? Eventually making low/mid six figures is realistic enough if you can build a practice, get lots of work, maybe take on a few associates/paralegals to maximize your throughput.

A problem with family law is that it's hard to scale beyond that size (whereas PI is a volume practice where one can aspire to adverts on billboards and double-digit firm size). So you're never going to break out from getting paid for work you're actually able to do in a workweek. Even if you're a rockstar who can bill above-market rates, those rates are still hourly; the math just isn't there to gross seven figures, let alone "make" that much as an individual.

Math seems easy enough, though? Let's say you have 4 associates you pay $150k each (call it $200k with healthcare, FICO, etc..) who bill 1500 hours a year at $400 an hour, and 75% is collected. And then also you, superstar founding partner, bill 1500 at $600 with same recovery. I'll even add 2 paralegals and a secretary as expenses ($150k total) and assume you don't collect any of their billables. That's $2.5 gross, $1.5 million after payroll. Is that an unreasonable model for a successful practice?

That's conceivable, but good luck generating 7500 hours/year of business willing to pay what are basically biglaw rates. You'd have to really make a name for yourself in the HNW-divorce space as Sackboy suggests above—which is easier said than done and will make your income dependent on landing huge cases (i.e., rather irregular, which is a problem with all that fixed overhead).

The Lsat Airbender wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 04, 2022 6:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 04, 2022 6:02 pm

The Lsat Airbender wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 04, 2022 11:48 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 03, 2022 9:57 pm

Know too PI guys can make bank just wanted some figures on some top family attorneys.

How much is a lot? Eventually making low/mid six figures is realistic enough if you can build a practice, get lots of work, maybe take on a few associates/paralegals to maximize your throughput.

A problem with family law is that it's hard to scale beyond that size (whereas PI is a volume practice where one can aspire to adverts on billboards and double-digit firm size). So you're never going to break out from getting paid for work you're actually able to do in a workweek. Even if you're a rockstar who can bill above-market rates, those rates are still hourly; the math just isn't there to gross seven figures, let alone "make" that much as an individual.

Math seems easy enough, though? Let's say you have 4 associates you pay $150k each (call it $200k with healthcare, FICO, etc..) who bill 1500 hours a year at $400 an hour, and 75% is collected. And then also you, superstar founding partner, bill 1500 at $600 with same recovery. I'll even add 2 paralegals and a secretary as expenses ($150k total) and assume you don't collect any of their billables. That's $2.5 gross, $1.5 million after payroll. Is that an unreasonable model for a successful practice?

That's conceivable, but good luck generating 7500 hours/year of business willing to pay what are basically biglaw rates. You'd have to really make a name for yourself in the HNW-divorce space as Sackboy suggests above—which is easier said than done and will make your income dependent on landing huge cases (i.e., rather irregular, which is a problem with all that fixed overhead).

$400 an hour is biglaw rates? I'm a biglaw associate and my rate is like $900

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 04, 2022 6:37 pm

$400 an hour is biglaw rates? I'm a biglaw associate and my rate is like $900

Yes, $400/hr. qualifies as pretty good midlaw/cost-sensitive biglaw rates for associates. You think shitlaw or small law is charging $400/hr for associates? That would put a small law/shitlaw firm at $680,000 in revenue for an associate who bills 1,700 hours (ignoring collections, because I'm lazy). Seyfarth Shaw is a pretty good midlaw/cost-sensitive biglaw firm has a revenue per lawyer of $807,000, which of course includes all of the equity/non-equity partners (like 65% of the firm) who charge the highest rates at the firm skewing that number upwards. Do you think shitlaw/small law or even the typical midlaw is achieving Seyfarth Shaw (#63 on AmLaw 200) rates? I feel like some common sense should get you to "No" pretty quickly.

To answer OP's question directly about top divorce attorneys, maybe the best known is Laura Wasser in LA (inspiration for Laura Dern's character in Marriage Story) and as of 2016 she was charging $850/hr and generally representing only people worth $10MM or more. https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2016 ... ce-lawyer/ But she has really carved out a niche of "celebrity/rich person divorce" so good luck if you want to compete there.

I'll say, as an associate at a midsized firm (50-100 attorneys- which is one of the biggest shops in town) in a smaller market (think KC/NOLA/Tucson), my rate is 215. I know the 2 biggest firms are billing out first years around 250-275 or so.
Family law can make money, but it will be in the 6 figures, and more likely than not, around 100-200 depending on where you are and how successfully you can bill/collect.

I am a solo doing divorce and family law. I charge $150/hour. Last year I made $375k plus probably another $10k in various non-cash gifts (90% of people pay upfront), so I don't have any issues collecting (so far). I worked almost 2700 hours.

omar1 wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 05, 2022 10:56 am

I am a solo doing divorce and family law. I charge $150/hour. Last year I made $375k plus probably another $10k in various non-cash gifts (90% of people pay upfront), so I don't have any issues collecting (so far). I worked almost 2700 hours.

It sounded great until the end.

omar1 wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 05, 2022 10:56 am

I am a solo doing divorce and family law. I charge $150/hour. Last year I made $375k plus probably another $10k in various non-cash gifts (90% of people pay upfront), so I don't have any issues collecting (so far). I worked almost 2700 hours.

I’m not a solo and know nothing about it, so props to you. But if I got 2700 hours of work at $150/hr, I think I would raise my rate. Have you considered that?

I'm also curious about the 2700 hrs poster. If I were in this position, I'd just work 1800 for 250k? (math probably off bc of overhead but you get the idea). Are you just a workaholic?

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 06, 2022 1:47 pm

I'm also curious about the 2700 hrs poster. If I were in this position, I'd just work 1800 for 250k? (math probably off bc of overhead but you get the idea). Are you just a workaholic?

To be fair, if OP raised rates by 60%, OP might lose 80% of his or her work.

Sackboy wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 06, 2022 6:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 06, 2022 1:47 pm

I'm also curious about the 2700 hrs poster. If I were in this position, I'd just work 1800 for 250k? (math probably off bc of overhead but you get the idea). Are you just a workaholic?

To be fair, if OP raised rates by 60%, OP might lose 80% of his or her work.

Still, that's $130k for billing 540 hours a year. So long as it's not a HCOL area, where can I sign up?

Sackboy wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 06, 2022 6:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 06, 2022 1:47 pm

I'm also curious about the 2700 hrs poster. If I were in this position, I'd just work 1800 for 250k? (math probably off bc of overhead but you get the idea). Are you just a workaholic?

To be fair, if OP raised rates by 60%, OP might lose 80% of his or her work.

I think you're responding to a different comment, I was just saying that 375k/2700 ≈ 250k/1800, at same rates and assuming overhead is proportional.

Re raising rates, sure 60% raise might lose a lot of business but what about 20%?

Sackboy wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 06, 2022 6:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 06, 2022 1:47 pm

I'm also curious about the 2700 hrs poster. If I were in this position, I'd just work 1800 for 250k? (math probably off bc of overhead but you get the idea). Are you just a workaholic?

To be fair, if OP raised rates by 60%, OP might lose 80% of his or her work.

Bingo. I already went up from $120 to $150 at the end of 2020. I do very very little advertising. I get clients by the word of mouth and referrals from other lawyers/organizations. I get many clients because of my rates. I'm afraid increasing my rates would mean losing too much business.

I take 5-6 weeks of vacation every year. I am fully in control of my calendar, so vacation is truly vacation. The rest of the year, I work about 60 hours a week. I probably two Saturdays a month. So it's not as bad as 2700 makes it sound. Another positive thing with a high number of clients is that I do not need to suck money out of them and instead try to resolve their cases without unnecessarily prolonging them. I always have something to do.

*Accidental anon above-I'm the solo fam/divorce from a few posts back

Like almost every area of law, you can do well if you’re the firm owner. Profit should be around 33% after paying everyone, including yourself. I know people who clear 1 mil in revenue. That gets you to like 400-500k per year.

It’s not as lucrative as other areas of law and certainly take a personality type to be successful.

I like my niche as a plaintiffs employment lawyer better. Not that hard to get clients in most markets and I have multiple friends that clear 1 mil in revenue as well.

PI is the most lucrative but also the most competitive. And you usually have to pay referral fees of 1/3 on almost all cases and/or shell our major money in advertising and case costs.