You're theoretically correct, but it's going to be difficult to come back from a 4. You might "make it," but you won't "make it." You'll have a sense of where you're headed after your 5th year review.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Sep 30, 2022 3:35 pmIf you have a 3 at the end of your 5th year, but are up for NSP at the end of your 6th year, it's the rating at the end of your 6th year that matters here, right? Not the rating at end of 5th year, because at that point you still have a whole additional year (that is, your 6th year) which will be your last year of a rating before you become an NSP. So I'm not sure why your 5th year's rating matters much.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Sep 30, 2022 2:58 pmYes. You're up for NSP at the end of your 6th year (Kirkland "years" for review purposes end in the summer). If they promote you to NSP that year, you'll receive a 2 or 1 rating. You can have a 3 your 5th year and still make NSP your 6th year. You find out about your review and promotion in September.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Sep 30, 2022 2:51 pmSo based on the last two posts, I think as a K&E lateral mid-lvl associate, you are first up for NSP at the end of your 6th year, not at the end of your 5th year. So you need to have gotten a 2 or 1 at the end of your 6th year, right, and it's ok to have gotten a 3 after your 5th/going into 6th year?
Saying you "find out in Sept of 6th year" is a little confusing to me as a lateral because September can be the end or the beginning of a given year, lol.
For example, if you get a 4 in your 5th year (let's say RL stuff is busy, or your burned out, or whatever) but then you really pick it up the following year, that's what i'd think matters: It's the rating at the end of the 6th year, right before/right as you become an NSP, that matters. Or have I missed something?
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Re: Kirkland Megathread
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Re: Kirkland Megathread
A couple comments back to this:Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Sep 30, 2022 3:35 pmIf you have a 3 at the end of your 5th year, but are up for NSP at the end of your 6th year, it's the rating at the end of your 6th year that matters here, right? Not the rating at end of 5th year, because at that point you still have a whole additional year (that is, your 6th year) which will be your last year of a rating before you become an NSP. So I'm not sure why your 5th year's rating matters much.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Sep 30, 2022 2:58 pmYes. You're up for NSP at the end of your 6th year (Kirkland "years" for review purposes end in the summer). If they promote you to NSP that year, you'll receive a 2 or 1 rating. You can have a 3 your 5th year and still make NSP your 6th year. You find out about your review and promotion in September.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Sep 30, 2022 2:51 pmSo based on the last two posts, I think as a K&E lateral mid-lvl associate, you are first up for NSP at the end of your 6th year, not at the end of your 5th year. So you need to have gotten a 2 or 1 at the end of your 6th year, right, and it's ok to have gotten a 3 after your 5th/going into 6th year?
Saying you "find out in Sept of 6th year" is a little confusing to me as a lateral because September can be the end or the beginning of a given year, lol.
For example, if you get a 4 in your 5th year (let's say RL stuff is busy, or your burned out, or whatever) but then you really pick it up the following year, that's what i'd think matters: It's the rating at the end of the 6th year, right before/right as you become an NSP, that matters. Or have I missed something?
1) Agree with the post above mine. If you get a 4 in your 5th year, you're not making NSP. 4s and 5s are reserved for bad performers and it's very rare for someone to get a 4 and survive at the firm long term; a 5 means effecively "pack up your bags now." I have the sense that a 3/2 or 3/1 NSP 5th/6th year is fairly common; I wonder if there's been more than a handful of 4/2 or 4/1 NSP transitions ever; it'd have to be really weird circumstances.
2) You're kind of switching the logic around here with your questions. At the end of your 6th year, the committee evaluates your history, reputation, body of work, feedback from reviewers, and if they decide it's appropriate for you to become an NSP, then they'll stamp your file with a 2 or 1. It's not like there's some mathematical formula by which the ratings are derived which the committee inputs, watches as a computer churns the number out, and then is like "ah, a 1, he becomes an NSP" lol
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Re: Kirkland Megathread
Right. When an individual partner reviews an associate, they don't give them a ranking. So it's not like there's some complex averaging system. The reviews are all open response style feedback. The committee then looks at all your reviews and assigns you a ranking based on the feedback. It's all very squishy.
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Re: Kirkland Megathread
You’re right, but the 5th year review does have signaling value because you’re less likely to jump from 3 to 1 over a single year, and god forbid from 4 to 1.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Sep 30, 2022 3:35 pmIf you have a 3 at the end of your 5th year, but are up for NSP at the end of your 6th year, it's the rating at the end of your 6th year that matters here, right? Not the rating at end of 5th year, because at that point you still have a whole additional year (that is, your 6th year) which will be your last year of a rating before you become an NSP. So I'm not sure why your 5th year's rating matters much.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Sep 30, 2022 2:58 pmYes. You're up for NSP at the end of your 6th year (Kirkland "years" for review purposes end in the summer). If they promote you to NSP that year, you'll receive a 2 or 1 rating. You can have a 3 your 5th year and still make NSP your 6th year. You find out about your review and promotion in September.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Sep 30, 2022 2:51 pmSo based on the last two posts, I think as a K&E lateral mid-lvl associate, you are first up for NSP at the end of your 6th year, not at the end of your 5th year. So you need to have gotten a 2 or 1 at the end of your 6th year, right, and it's ok to have gotten a 3 after your 5th/going into 6th year?
Saying you "find out in Sept of 6th year" is a little confusing to me as a lateral because September can be the end or the beginning of a given year, lol.
For example, if you get a 4 in your 5th year (let's say RL stuff is busy, or your burned out, or whatever) but then you really pick it up the following year, that's what i'd think matters: It's the rating at the end of the 6th year, right before/right as you become an NSP, that matters. Or have I missed something?
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Re: Kirkland Megathread
5 doesn't theoretically or kind've mean pack your bags. That's literally what it means. Like the powerpoint that they show associates about reviews says that a 5 means you are terminated for cause, immediately.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:03 pmA couple comments back to this:Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Sep 30, 2022 3:35 pmIf you have a 3 at the end of your 5th year, but are up for NSP at the end of your 6th year, it's the rating at the end of your 6th year that matters here, right? Not the rating at end of 5th year, because at that point you still have a whole additional year (that is, your 6th year) which will be your last year of a rating before you become an NSP. So I'm not sure why your 5th year's rating matters much.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Sep 30, 2022 2:58 pmYes. You're up for NSP at the end of your 6th year (Kirkland "years" for review purposes end in the summer). If they promote you to NSP that year, you'll receive a 2 or 1 rating. You can have a 3 your 5th year and still make NSP your 6th year. You find out about your review and promotion in September.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Sep 30, 2022 2:51 pmSo based on the last two posts, I think as a K&E lateral mid-lvl associate, you are first up for NSP at the end of your 6th year, not at the end of your 5th year. So you need to have gotten a 2 or 1 at the end of your 6th year, right, and it's ok to have gotten a 3 after your 5th/going into 6th year?
Saying you "find out in Sept of 6th year" is a little confusing to me as a lateral because September can be the end or the beginning of a given year, lol.
For example, if you get a 4 in your 5th year (let's say RL stuff is busy, or your burned out, or whatever) but then you really pick it up the following year, that's what i'd think matters: It's the rating at the end of the 6th year, right before/right as you become an NSP, that matters. Or have I missed something?
1) Agree with the post above mine. If you get a 4 in your 5th year, you're not making NSP. 4s and 5s are reserved for bad performers and it's very rare for someone to get a 4 and survive at the firm long term; a 5 means effecively "pack up your bags now." I have the sense that a 3/2 or 3/1 NSP 5th/6th year is fairly common; I wonder if there's been more than a handful of 4/2 or 4/1 NSP transitions ever; it'd have to be really weird circumstances.
2) You're kind of switching the logic around here with your questions. At the end of your 6th year, the committee evaluates your history, reputation, body of work, feedback from reviewers, and if they decide it's appropriate for you to become an NSP, then they'll stamp your file with a 2 or 1. It's not like there's some mathematical formula by which the ratings are derived which the committee inputs, watches as a computer churns the number out, and then is like "ah, a 1, he becomes an NSP" lol
A 4 is also pretty explicitly noted as "you aren't fired yet, but should start seeking other opportunities now."
Again these aren't informal meanings. The partner that walked through the review slides with associates said almost exactly what I've articulated above, in the meeting.
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Re: Kirkland Megathread
If the above poster is right that 4 means you need to plan to leave soon-ish, that leaves a logical gap between 4 and 3. A 3 is "on track", so if 4 is "you should plan to leave soon", what's the rating for someone who is around the level of "you're not on track for your class year due to deficiencies x, y, and z, but if you work hard and improve those, you can be back on track"? Surely there's that space for that kind of improvement?
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Re: Kirkland Megathread
There is no 3.5 rating, sorry. Also you are overthinking how detailed the review process is. All juniors receive a 3 rating as far as I know unless they are spectacularly terrible. Someone with the level you mentioned above receives a 3 rating until the powers that be decide they aren't hacking it and then they get it a 4.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:07 pmIf the above poster is right that 4 means you need to plan to leave soon-ish, that leaves a logical gap between 4 and 3. A 3 is "on track", so if 4 is "you should plan to leave soon", what's the rating for someone who is around the level of "you're not on track for your class year due to deficiencies x, y, and z, but if you work hard and improve those, you can be back on track"? Surely there's that space for that kind of improvement?
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Re: Kirkland Megathread
Do people who get 2 at the end of the 5th year generally make NSP? Have people seen cases where they don’t?
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Re: Kirkland Megathread
I know a 4th year lateral who made NSP a couple of days ago as a newly minted 6th year.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Sep 30, 2022 2:51 pmSo based on the last two posts, I think as a K&E lateral mid-lvl associate, you are first up for NSP at the end of your 6th year, not at the end of your 5th year. So you need to have gotten a 2 or 1 at the end of your 6th year, right, and it's ok to have gotten a 3 after your 5th/going into 6th year?
Saying you "find out in Sept of 6th year" is a little confusing to me as a lateral because September can be the end or the beginning of a given year, lol.
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Re: Kirkland Megathread
Generally, yes, but it may limit your future prospects. The firm isn't going to push out a competent senior/NSP at that point.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:28 amDo people who get 2 at the end of the 5th year generally make NSP? Have people seen cases where they don’t?
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Re: Kirkland Megathread
Do people ever lateral right into NSP? Like a counsel at Skadden (8th year-ish, they sort of use counsel sort of like NEP at K&E) or a senior associate at DPW? Or is there like a holding period? Or do they just not take laterals that senior?
No real reason for asking, just pure curiosity.
No real reason for asking, just pure curiosity.
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Re: Kirkland Megathread
People lateral into NSP all of the time.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:09 pmDo people ever lateral right into NSP? Like a counsel at Skadden (8th year-ish, they sort of use counsel sort of like NEP at K&E) or a senior associate at DPW? Or is there like a holding period? Or do they just not take laterals that senior?
No real reason for asking, just pure curiosity.
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Re: Kirkland Megathread
Indeed, even almost-guaranteed-to-become SPs are known to lateral over as NSPs while they do a year or two trial run before getting shares.Sackboy wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:24 pmPeople lateral into NSP all of the time.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:09 pmDo people ever lateral right into NSP? Like a counsel at Skadden (8th year-ish, they sort of use counsel sort of like NEP at K&E) or a senior associate at DPW? Or is there like a holding period? Or do they just not take laterals that senior?
No real reason for asking, just pure curiosity.
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Re: Kirkland Megathread
Do laterals usually get 3s in their first review or is a 1 (or at least a 2) possible?
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Re: Kirkland Megathread
Depends on how long you have been there since lateralling. I have seen seniors who lateralled with significant hours for review get 2s.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Oct 08, 2022 4:34 pmDo laterals usually get 3s in their first review or is a 1 (or at least a 2) possible?
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Re: Kirkland Megathread
Possible to get a 2Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Oct 08, 2022 4:34 pmDo laterals usually get 3s in their first review or is a 1 (or at least a 2) possible?
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Re: Kirkland Megathread
Thank you. So a 1 isn’t possible until your second year as a lateral?Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Oct 10, 2022 11:08 amPossible to get a 2Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Oct 08, 2022 4:34 pmDo laterals usually get 3s in their first review or is a 1 (or at least a 2) possible?
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Re: Kirkland Megathread
I'll let you all in on an open secret. The review process is mostly for show - we got it from the consulting world where they try to quantify performance in an objective manner. Your actual review is based on the opinions of just a couple people - the one or two share partners you work for and the SP heading the associate review committee. They will discuss the number you will receive and whether you get broken out or not depends on overall firm politics for breaking associates out at a certain class level (essentially nobody can get a 2 before year 4).
There are "3.5s" - that is a 3 with a mid-year review. That's us telling you to fix things within the next few months or you will be out by the end of next year. If you have a 4, you are a dead man walking and should be interviewing ASAP. I've never seen somebody come back from a 4 - even getting a 4 means our minds are made up about you already.
5 you're already dead.
There are "3.5s" - that is a 3 with a mid-year review. That's us telling you to fix things within the next few months or you will be out by the end of next year. If you have a 4, you are a dead man walking and should be interviewing ASAP. I've never seen somebody come back from a 4 - even getting a 4 means our minds are made up about you already.
5 you're already dead.
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Re: Kirkland Megathread
Just curious - do you get substantive feedback in your reviews as well or is it literally just a number? I get that most qualitative feedback is filtered/generic and just about as useless as numbers, but I hear so much about the K&E review numbers that I'm curious about what the rest of the process looks like.
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Re: Kirkland Megathread
Yes, there is plenty of qualitative feedback. The depth of the discussion depends on the partner running your review - some like to give lots of details, others a 60-second summary. But if you care, you can ask follow up questions and get more substance from them. My review this year was with a partner known to usually have summary 5 minute reviews, but ours ended up going for 45 minutes because I asked questions and we got into a deep discussion about development etc.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Oct 10, 2022 2:38 pmJust curious - do you get substantive feedback in your reviews as well or is it literally just a number? I get that most qualitative feedback is filtered/generic and just about as useless as numbers, but I hear so much about the K&E review numbers that I'm curious about what the rest of the process looks like.
In some offices you can read the actual written feedback from partners if you reach out to HR, while in others they only share it verbally in the review meeting (with the theory that partners are more honest if they know an associate won’t read the exact words attributed to them). Regardless, the feedback is there in the file to be passed onto you in some form.
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Re: Kirkland Megathread
I didn't know this varied by office. In my office, you are able to sit in a room with your review file and read everything that every partner wrote about you. You cannot take the review with you or get your own copy - you're just allowed to read it on site.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Oct 10, 2022 4:50 pmIn some offices you can read the actual written feedback from partners if you reach out to HR, while in others they only share it verbally in the review meeting (with the theory that partners are more honest if they know an associate won’t read the exact words attributed to them). Regardless, the feedback is there in the file to be passed onto you in some form.
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Re: Kirkland Megathread
Lots of anxiety around the market I know, but has there been any word on 3L law clerks joining the firm this year? Would love to have a chance to work some while in school.
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Re: Kirkland Megathread
Did y'all hear about the IP associate in SF that got fired and sued based on sex discrimination? Any truth to that?
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Re: Kirkland Megathread
I just read the complaint, which can be found online (the case is Kovalenko v. Kirkland & Ellis, filed in N.D. Cal.). It's a little confounding in that the associate seems like she was hired with a lot of enthusiasm from the IP partners in her office, did good work, was recognized (in written communications by partners) for doing good work, and then was abruptly fired on the basis that her work was not up to par.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Oct 13, 2022 10:46 amDid y'all hear about the IP associate in SF that got fired and sued based on sex discrimination? Any truth to that?
So there's clearly missing details. But it seems like it's not a crazy complaint overall.
What should really be terrifying to all associates at K&E is the structure of the review/termination process here. You think you're doing fine and then all of a sudden you get a call/meeting and told you're being let go. Yes, the termination package can be generous, but it's hard to consistently perform well when you know there's a chance the partners will decide you're not performing at the level you "should be" and fire you, with no period of opportunity for correction or real advance notice about ways to improve.
They really need to do more than just a one-off annual review. Yes, it takes time for busy partners to do that, and they probably find it annoying, but it's absolutely in everyone's interest to invest in associates by doing quarterly reviews rather than annual.
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Re: Kirkland Megathread
But that is the point..... (i.e., optionality to fire for cause based on goal posts that can move at any time)Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Oct 13, 2022 11:16 amI just read the complaint, which can be found online (the case is Kovalenko v. Kirkland & Ellis, filed in N.D. Cal.). It's a little confounding in that the associate seems like she was hired with a lot of enthusiasm from the IP partners in her office, did good work, was recognized (in written communications by partners) for doing good work, and then was abruptly fired on the basis that her work was not up to par.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Oct 13, 2022 10:46 amDid y'all hear about the IP associate in SF that got fired and sued based on sex discrimination? Any truth to that?
So there's clearly missing details. But it seems like it's not a crazy complaint overall.
What should really be terrifying to all associates at K&E is the structure of the review/termination process here. You think you're doing fine and then all of a sudden you get a call/meeting and told you're being let go. Yes, the termination package can be generous, but it's hard to consistently perform well when you know there's a chance the partners will decide you're not performing at the level you "should be" and fire you, with no period of opportunity for correction or real advance notice about ways to improve.
They really need to do more than just a one-off annual review. Yes, it takes time for busy partners to do that, and they probably find it annoying, but it's absolutely in everyone's interest to invest in associates by doing quarterly reviews rather than annual.
In any case, the review process is such a pain in the ass as it is, quarterly sounds miserable.
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