Kirkland Megathread Forum

[Anonymous User]

Regardless of the merits, K&E obviously knew that this was constructively firing Clement. After all, the exact same thing happened to King & Spalding. Especially since he was guaranteed free rein when Kirkland acquihired Bancroft.

Yeah this mealy mouthed "we didn't fire him" is so cowardly, at least have the courage of your convictions.

Yea Kirkland can be a good landing spot if you're a medianish T14 law student interested in something like corp or restructuring. But if you are an aspiring litigator with grades that place you closer to the top end of your class, go elsewhere. The firm has become a $$$-first firm, which has definitely paid off, but two things can be true at the same time. A place can be both extremely profitable and a bad landing spot a certain class of law firm applicants (and laterals).

It’s just a tough time to be a litigator in Biglaw. It’s falling out of favor generally because it’s not profitable compared to corporate. It used to be unthinkable for a firm to have over half of its attorneys not be litigators, now the exact opposite is true. Kirkland used to be a litigation firm, so did many other firms, but it just doesn’t bring in the money. It really seems like long-term, top flight litigation is moving to specialized boutiques. Just compare the profitability of litigation firms to the big corporate shops. Jenner made less than 500M last year - less than 10% of KEs revenues.* Quinn made a bit over 1/6 of KEs revenues.* Gibson a bit over 1/3. Biglaw business models are evolving and while there will always be a place for prestigious litigation in these places, they haven’t been an “engine of growth” in big firms for years.

This doesn't really address the point. Yes, it takes better grades to be a thriving litigator, because there are fewer spots--no one's really disputing that. The point is that there's not really a reason for high-performing law students with circuit clerkship credentials or better to choose Kirkland now (including DC, especially with them kicking out Clement in a thinly-veiled bid to become a profit-above-all-else Walmart of law firms). For sure, Kirkland isn't a terrible place for people in this category or anything. At the same time, there are many better options, including in biglaw (and not just boutiques). Why would you want to be a litigator in a place where you'll be an afterthought to some corporate mega machine that's overflowing with armies of mediocre T14 students?

Exactly. At most biglaw firms nowadays, corporate generates more revenue than litigation. But accepting that premise, there are plenty of biglaw firms where (1) the corp group and its singular obsession with $$$$ doesn’t swallow up everything else quite in the way Kirkland’s does and (2) litigators are respected (both at the firm leadership level and in terms of firm culture). For example, in DC, I would take Covington or Gibson or Jenner (if you’re a liberal) over Kirk in a heartbeat. The Clement fiasco sent the message loud and clear to the next generation of all star litigators: stay away from Kirkland.

Then there are of obviously the boutiques (Keker, Munger etc) and other lit-only firms like W&C, Quinn, and so on.

I took Kirkland over a Gibson offer, cancelled a Covington callback, and didn't even bother applying to Jenner. I would make the same choice again. Kirkland's DC office is stacked with talent and the idea that a talented associate who actually wants to work on high stakes litigation would somehow be lost in "armies of mediocre 14 grads" here is crazy. I'm sorry to see Clement go but all this 0L prognosticating as if KE is now some lit wasteland is over the top.

Lol agreed. Gibson and Kirkland are peers in DC, and it's really a matter of fit & politics where one decides to go. Covington has the edge in lobbying and regulatory work by a wide margin, but for GCL/appellate work, Kirkland is clearly the better choice. Jenner DC is more prestigious and arguably does better work than Kirkland DC, but the margin isn't so large that if Jenner's liberal and pro bono driven culture doesn't do it for you, taking Kirkland over Jenner in the market is more than justified.

Have to note that "armies of mediocre T14 grads" is a very NY specific thing. Not true in Chicago, not really true in SF, and definitely not true in DC. Texas/SLC/Miami different story altogether.

[Anonymous User]

Does anyone know the typical CB to offer (rejection) timeline at Kirkland NY? Had my CB 7 days ago and have not heard anything since, should I just give up and think of it as a ding?

I got my offer exactly 7 days post CB.

[Anonymous User]

Question: Does Kirkland NY assign summers to specific groups? I'm interested in Rx, met with basically only Rx partners/associates during interviews, and had an Rx partner call to give me an offer, but my offer letter doesn't mention Rx at all. Is there likely going to bee any problem getting Rx work as a summer/getting an offer to return to the group? I imagine they're both very busy but also very in-demand.

[Anonymous User]

Does anyone know the typical CB to offer (rejection) timeline at Kirkland NY? Had my CB 7 days ago and have not heard anything since, should I just give up and think of it as a ding?

I got my offer exactly 7 days post CB.

A few years ago I got a same day offer, but they said they don't do that often.

[Anonymous User]

Does anyone know the typical CB to offer (rejection) timeline at Kirkland NY? Had my CB 7 days ago and have not heard anything since, should I just give up and think of it as a ding?

I got my offer exactly 7 days post CB.

A few years ago I got a same day offer, but they said they don't do that often.

I went CB-offer in just over 24 hours this week.

[Anonymous User]

Question: Does Kirkland NY assign summers to specific groups? I'm interested in Rx, met with basically only Rx partners/associates during interviews, and had an Rx partner call to give me an offer, but my offer letter doesn't mention Rx at all. Is there likely going to bee any problem getting Rx work as a summer/getting an offer to return to the group? I imagine they're both very busy but also very in-demand.

They do. However with the open-assignment system, even if for example you were assigned Corp-Gen, you could still choose to do nothing but RX work all summer.

[Anonymous User]

K&E partner here. Share partner, fwiw.

We didn't fire Clement. We told Clement that he should not take on any more 2A representations going forward. I'm not aware of any particular client(s) demanding that the firm step away from these, but there are many of us here who believe the tragedy in Uvalde is a tipping point and we cannot in good faith as a firm continue to advocate for clients that contribute to this shit always happening in our country.

Clement decided (as is his right) that he didn't want the firm telling him which clients, no matter how unpopular they or their goals might be, he could represent. He is a great lawyer and we aren't happy to see him go. But telling him that he couldn't do one specific type of representation is not "constructive firing", as much as K&E haters like "Kirkland Signature" would have you believe.

Leadership in this firm still leans right. But this "Wal-mart of law firms" with no principles other than just making money has a collective belief that kids should not get gunned down in schools. There are many on the right who believe sensible gun control is the right thing to do, and as a firm we have decided we are not going to represent the 2A zealots who fight tooth and nail against any and all forms of it.

Regardless of the merits, K&E obviously knew that this was constructively firing Clement. After all, the exact same thing happened to King & Spalding. Especially since he was guaranteed free rein when Kirkland acquihired Bancroft.

Yeah this mealy mouthed "we didn't fire him" is so cowardly, at least have the courage of your convictions.

Yea Kirkland can be a good landing spot if you're a medianish T14 law student interested in something like corp or restructuring. But if you are an aspiring litigator with grades that place you closer to the top end of your class, go elsewhere. The firm has become a $$$-first firm, which has definitely paid off, but two things can be true at the same time. A place can be both extremely profitable and a bad landing spot a certain class of law firm applicants (and laterals).

It’s just a tough time to be a litigator in Biglaw. It’s falling out of favor generally because it’s not profitable compared to corporate. It used to be unthinkable for a firm to have over half of its attorneys not be litigators, now the exact opposite is true. Kirkland used to be a litigation firm, so did many other firms, but it just doesn’t bring in the money. It really seems like long-term, top flight litigation is moving to specialized boutiques. Just compare the profitability of litigation firms to the big corporate shops. Jenner made less than 500M last year - less than 10% of KEs revenues.* Quinn made a bit over 1/6 of KEs revenues.* Gibson a bit over 1/3. Biglaw business models are evolving and while there will always be a place for prestigious litigation in these places, they haven’t been an “engine of growth” in big firms for years.

This doesn't really address the point. Yes, it takes better grades to be a thriving litigator, because there are fewer spots--no one's really disputing that. The point is that there's not really a reason for high-performing law students with circuit clerkship credentials or better to choose Kirkland now (including DC, especially with them kicking out Clement in a thinly-veiled bid to become a profit-above-all-else Walmart of law firms). For sure, Kirkland isn't a terrible place for people in this category or anything. At the same time, there are many better options, including in biglaw (and not just boutiques). Why would you want to be a litigator in a place where you'll be an afterthought to some corporate mega machine that's overflowing with armies of mediocre T14 students?

Can't believe I'm dignifying this idiotic post with a response, but this reads like a 2L fantasy novel by someone super excited he accepted a summer offer at Paul Weiss over Kirkland. Kirkland was just named AmLaw's Litigation Department of the Year and it's been in BTI's Fearsome Foursome for a decade. The firm routinely handles some of the most prestigious and largest litigation matters in the country. The department (all 650 attorneys) is a major source of the firm's reputation, capability, and profitability, especially during less stable periods like the first couple quarters of COVID and then again in 2022. It's true that the trend of the firm has been more toward transactional in the past ten years in relative terms (like most firms in the V25), but the litigation and the transactional work go hand in hand (the cross-platform capability is a huge selling point for clients) and litigation is in the firm's DNA and always will be; there isn't a litigator here who if you asked them would claim they are an "afterthought" (what garbage). Finally, what happened with Clement has been brewing for years as part of some Game of Thrones power politics crap that has nothing to do with profitability or litigation vs. transactional or anything else other than big egos jockeying for influence.

[Anonymous User]

K&E partner here. Share partner, fwiw.

We didn't fire Clement. We told Clement that he should not take on any more 2A representations going forward. I'm not aware of any particular client(s) demanding that the firm step away from these, but there are many of us here who believe the tragedy in Uvalde is a tipping point and we cannot in good faith as a firm continue to advocate for clients that contribute to this shit always happening in our country.

Clement decided (as is his right) that he didn't want the firm telling him which clients, no matter how unpopular they or their goals might be, he could represent. He is a great lawyer and we aren't happy to see him go. But telling him that he couldn't do one specific type of representation is not "constructive firing", as much as K&E haters like "Kirkland Signature" would have you believe.

Leadership in this firm still leans right. But this "Wal-mart of law firms" with no principles other than just making money has a collective belief that kids should not get gunned down in schools. There are many on the right who believe sensible gun control is the right thing to do, and as a firm we have decided we are not going to represent the 2A zealots who fight tooth and nail against any and all forms of it.

Regardless of the merits, K&E obviously knew that this was constructively firing Clement. After all, the exact same thing happened to King & Spalding. Especially since he was guaranteed free rein when Kirkland acquihired Bancroft.

Yeah this mealy mouthed "we didn't fire him" is so cowardly, at least have the courage of your convictions.

Yea Kirkland can be a good landing spot if you're a medianish T14 law student interested in something like corp or restructuring. But if you are an aspiring litigator with grades that place you closer to the top end of your class, go elsewhere. The firm has become a $$$-first firm, which has definitely paid off, but two things can be true at the same time. A place can be both extremely profitable and a bad landing spot a certain class of law firm applicants (and laterals).

It’s just a tough time to be a litigator in Biglaw. It’s falling out of favor generally because it’s not profitable compared to corporate. It used to be unthinkable for a firm to have over half of its attorneys not be litigators, now the exact opposite is true. Kirkland used to be a litigation firm, so did many other firms, but it just doesn’t bring in the money. It really seems like long-term, top flight litigation is moving to specialized boutiques. Just compare the profitability of litigation firms to the big corporate shops. Jenner made less than 500M last year - less than 10% of KEs revenues.* Quinn made a bit over 1/6 of KEs revenues.* Gibson a bit over 1/3. Biglaw business models are evolving and while there will always be a place for prestigious litigation in these places, they haven’t been an “engine of growth” in big firms for years.

This doesn't really address the point. Yes, it takes better grades to be a thriving litigator, because there are fewer spots--no one's really disputing that. The point is that there's not really a reason for high-performing law students with circuit clerkship credentials or better to choose Kirkland now (including DC, especially with them kicking out Clement in a thinly-veiled bid to become a profit-above-all-else Walmart of law firms). For sure, Kirkland isn't a terrible place for people in this category or anything. At the same time, there are many better options, including in biglaw (and not just boutiques). Why would you want to be a litigator in a place where you'll be an afterthought to some corporate mega machine that's overflowing with armies of mediocre T14 students?

Can't believe I'm dignifying this idiotic post with a response, but this reads like a 2L fantasy novel by someone super excited he accepted a summer offer at Paul Weiss over Kirkland. Kirkland was just named AmLaw's Litigation Department of the Year and it's been in BTI's Fearsome Foursome for a decade. The firm routinely handles some of the most prestigious and largest litigation matters in the country. The department (all 650 attorneys) is a major source of the firm's reputation, capability, and profitability, especially during less stable periods like the first couple quarters of COVID and then again in 2022. It's true that the trend of the firm has been more toward transactional in the past ten years in relative terms (like most firms in the V25), but the litigation and the transactional work go hand in hand (the cross-platform capability is a huge selling point for clients) and litigation is in the firm's DNA and always will be; there isn't a litigator here who if you asked them would claim they are an "afterthought" (what garbage). Finally, what happened with Clement has been brewing for years as part of some Game of Thrones power politics crap that has nothing to do with profitability or litigation vs. transactional or anything else other than big egos jockeying for influence.

While Kirkland has a large and successful litigation practice, it's just true that it is not seen as particularly desirable for COA-level litigation candidates, which is all the previous poster said. Though it is for candidates targeting markets where Kirkland is a dominant lit player (Chicago, SLC). A huge body count is, if anything, a downside for many of those students, who often want boutiques or biglaw offices with boutique-like experiences, with low leverage and high selectivity.

[Anonymous User]

Can't believe I'm dignifying this idiotic post with a response, but this reads like a 2L fantasy novel by someone super excited he accepted a summer offer at Paul Weiss over Kirkland. Kirkland was just named AmLaw's Litigation Department of the Year and it's been in BTI's Fearsome Foursome for a decade. The firm routinely handles some of the most prestigious and largest litigation matters in the country. The department (all 650 attorneys) is a major source of the firm's reputation, capability, and profitability, especially during less stable periods like the first couple quarters of COVID and then again in 2022. It's true that the trend of the firm has been more toward transactional in the past ten years in relative terms (like most firms in the V25), but the litigation and the transactional work go hand in hand (the cross-platform capability is a huge selling point for clients) and litigation is in the firm's DNA and always will be; there isn't a litigator here who if you asked them would claim they are an "afterthought" (what garbage). Finally, what happened with Clement has been brewing for years as part of some Game of Thrones power politics crap that has nothing to do with profitability or litigation vs. transactional or anything else other than big egos jockeying for influence.

Kirkland lit is fine. there are obviously better places to litigate, and there are obviously worse places to litigate. no need to get defensive. bolded is just...blatantly false and/or cringeworthy.

[Anonymous User]

Question: Does Kirkland NY assign summers to specific groups? I'm interested in Rx, met with basically only Rx partners/associates during interviews, and had an Rx partner call to give me an offer, but my offer letter doesn't mention Rx at all. Is there likely going to bee any problem getting Rx work as a summer/getting an offer to return to the group? I imagine they're both very busy but also very in-demand.

They do. However with the open-assignment system, even if for example you were assigned Corp-Gen, you could still choose to do nothing but RX work all summer.

How do you know what group you're assigned to? My offer letter literally says nothing re: group status. Do we get assigned later?

[Anonymous User]

Can't believe I'm dignifying this idiotic post with a response, but this reads like a 2L fantasy novel by someone super excited he accepted a summer offer at Paul Weiss over Kirkland. Kirkland was just named AmLaw's Litigation Department of the Year and it's been in BTI's Fearsome Foursome for a decade. The firm routinely handles some of the most prestigious and largest litigation matters in the country. The department (all 650 attorneys) is a major source of the firm's reputation, capability, and profitability, especially during less stable periods like the first couple quarters of COVID and then again in 2022. It's true that the trend of the firm has been more toward transactional in the past ten years in relative terms (like most firms in the V25), but the litigation and the transactional work go hand in hand (the cross-platform capability is a huge selling point for clients) and litigation is in the firm's DNA and always will be; there isn't a litigator here who if you asked them would claim they are an "afterthought" (what garbage). Finally, what happened with Clement has been brewing for years as part of some Game of Thrones power politics crap that has nothing to do with profitability or litigation vs. transactional or anything else other than big egos jockeying for influence.

Kirkland lit is fine. there are obviously better places to litigate, and there are obviously worse places to litigate. no need to get defensive. bolded is just...blatantly false and/or cringeworthy.

No one is being defensive just clearing up bullshit from someone with an obvious axe to grind (but who lacks actual knowledge)—“the Walmart of law.” Also nothing you’ve bolded is false. Not going to get into a pedants debate about whether you can find an attorney here or there who would disagree about the “afterthought” comment. Not sure why you’d argue the firm’s reputation isn’t based on lit just as much as corp; ten years ago, before any of this transactional wave (back when Kirkland’s biggest claim to fame in transactional spaces was just its mid market dominance), the firm was already V10. And the trans and lit groups are constantly cross selling.

[Anonymous User]

Question: Does Kirkland NY assign summers to specific groups? I'm interested in Rx, met with basically only Rx partners/associates during interviews, and had an Rx partner call to give me an offer, but my offer letter doesn't mention Rx at all. Is there likely going to bee any problem getting Rx work as a summer/getting an offer to return to the group? I imagine they're both very busy but also very in-demand.

They do. However with the open-assignment system, even if for example you were assigned Corp-Gen, you could still choose to do nothing but RX work all summer.

How do you know what group you're assigned to? My offer letter literally says nothing re: group status. Do we get assigned later?

I only selected Corp-Gen as my preferred area so i sort of figured that would be my group for the summer but i don't think i "officially" found out until my first day, although im sure if it is something you genuinely are concerned about you can ask recruiting.

[Anonymous User]

Question: Does Kirkland NY assign summers to specific groups? I'm interested in Rx, met with basically only Rx partners/associates during interviews, and had an Rx partner call to give me an offer, but my offer letter doesn't mention Rx at all. Is there likely going to bee any problem getting Rx work as a summer/getting an offer to return to the group? I imagine they're both very busy but also very in-demand.

They do. However with the open-assignment system, even if for example you were assigned Corp-Gen, you could still choose to do nothing but RX work all summer.

How do you know what group you're assigned to? My offer letter literally says nothing re: group status. Do we get assigned later?

The hiring partner told me on the phone, but my letter is similarly nondescript.

[Anonymous User]

Can't believe I'm dignifying this idiotic post with a response, but this reads like a 2L fantasy novel by someone super excited he accepted a summer offer at Paul Weiss over Kirkland. Kirkland was just named AmLaw's Litigation Department of the Year and it's been in BTI's Fearsome Foursome for a decade. The firm routinely handles some of the most prestigious and largest litigation matters in the country. The department (all 650 attorneys) is a major source of the firm's reputation, capability, and profitability, especially during less stable periods like the first couple quarters of COVID and then again in 2022. It's true that the trend of the firm has been more toward transactional in the past ten years in relative terms (like most firms in the V25), but the litigation and the transactional work go hand in hand (the cross-platform capability is a huge selling point for clients) and litigation is in the firm's DNA and always will be; there isn't a litigator here who if you asked them would claim they are an "afterthought" (what garbage). Finally, what happened with Clement has been brewing for years as part of some Game of Thrones power politics crap that has nothing to do with profitability or litigation vs. transactional or anything else other than big egos jockeying for influence.

Kirkland lit is fine. there are obviously better places to litigate, and there are obviously worse places to litigate. no need to get defensive. bolded is just...blatantly false and/or cringeworthy.

No one is being defensive just clearing up bullshit from someone with an obvious axe to grind (but who lacks actual knowledge)—“the Walmart of law.” Also nothing you’ve bolded is false. Not going to get into a pedants debate about whether you can find an attorney here or there who would disagree about the “afterthought” comment. Not sure why you’d argue the firm’s reputation isn’t based on lit just as much as corp; ten years ago, before any of this transactional wave (back when Kirkland’s biggest claim to fame in transactional spaces was just its mid market dominance), the firm was already V10. And the trans and lit groups are constantly cross selling.

I'm a Kirkland associate and agree that the bolded was cringe. BTI's Fearsome Four? Cross-platform capability? Almost shocked this cheerleader didn't include our Wins of the Week or Litigator of the Month awards.

Definitely true that at least some litigators feel that their (our) department is an afterthought to corporate. It's just how power and money work in 2022, would be naive to believe otherwise. And nothing this cheerleader is criticizing "reads like a 2L fantasy novel", that's a tired insult on these boards. We're all working attorneys who practice in the real world. Clement's departure has ramifications in the high-level lit and appellate markets. No point being defensive (or naive) about it.

[Anonymous User]

Can't believe I'm dignifying this idiotic post with a response, but this reads like a 2L fantasy novel by someone super excited he accepted a summer offer at Paul Weiss over Kirkland. Kirkland was just named AmLaw's Litigation Department of the Year and it's been in BTI's Fearsome Foursome for a decade. The firm routinely handles some of the most prestigious and largest litigation matters in the country. The department (all 650 attorneys) is a major source of the firm's reputation, capability, and profitability, especially during less stable periods like the first couple quarters of COVID and then again in 2022. It's true that the trend of the firm has been more toward transactional in the past ten years in relative terms (like most firms in the V25), but the litigation and the transactional work go hand in hand (the cross-platform capability is a huge selling point for clients) and litigation is in the firm's DNA and always will be; there isn't a litigator here who if you asked them would claim they are an "afterthought" (what garbage). Finally, what happened with Clement has been brewing for years as part of some Game of Thrones power politics crap that has nothing to do with profitability or litigation vs. transactional or anything else other than big egos jockeying for influence.

Kirkland lit is fine. there are obviously better places to litigate, and there are obviously worse places to litigate. no need to get defensive. bolded is just...blatantly false and/or cringeworthy.

No one is being defensive just clearing up bullshit from someone with an obvious axe to grind (but who lacks actual knowledge)—“the Walmart of law.” Also nothing you’ve bolded is false. Not going to get into a pedants debate about whether you can find an attorney here or there who would disagree about the “afterthought” comment. Not sure why you’d argue the firm’s reputation isn’t based on lit just as much as corp; ten years ago, before any of this transactional wave (back when Kirkland’s biggest claim to fame in transactional spaces was just its mid market dominance), the firm was already V10. And the trans and lit groups are constantly cross selling.

I'm a Kirkland associate and agree that the bolded was cringe. BTI's Fearsome Four? Cross-platform capability? Almost shocked this cheerleader didn't include our Wins of the Week or Litigator of the Month awards.

Definitely true that at least some litigators feel that their (our) department is an afterthought to corporate. It's just how power and money work in 2022, would be naive to believe otherwise. And nothing this cheerleader is criticizing "reads like a 2L fantasy novel", that's a tired insult on these boards. We're all working attorneys who practice in the real world. Clement's departure has ramifications in the high-level lit and appellate markets. No point being defensive (or naive) about it.

Being a part of BTI's Fearsome Foursome isn't some easy marketing exercise it carries a significant amount of weight with clients. Claiming that Kirkland is becoming the "Walmart of Law Firms" isn't the "real world" it's exactly the cruft you'd find from a know-nothing 2L; Kirkland isn't DLA Piper San Diego and it was a stupid point. And the point about the firm being loaded up with crappy law students and lateral hires is, ironically, a criticism of the corporate practice if anything not litigation: all the talk in the past twenty-four months about Kirkland driving its reputation down because of bad recruits is being driven by corporate while litigation has maintained the same standards that it had pre-COVID. I'll qualify this by admitting that my perspective is Chicago-centric where Kirkland is the obvious top litigation firm here other than if you want boutique in which case you go Bartlit; maybe colleagues in NY, where the corp. work has grown so immensely and the lit. reputation wasn't as strong to begin with feel differently. But the point stands that the original post was full of nonsense.

[hkvkhgvhjkv6]

New first-year here,

What are some of the lesser known perks at KE? I've heard of hotel discounts and maybe special banking relationships / benefits?

[Anonymous User]

no one gives a fuck about the 'BTI Fearsome Foursome'

[Anonymous User]

What's the office/seating situation like for juniors in NY? Heard it was 2 to an interior office, all glass walls? Also how are office amenities in NY?

[Anonymous User]

Question: Does Kirkland NY assign summers to specific groups? I'm interested in Rx, met with basically only Rx partners/associates during interviews, and had an Rx partner call to give me an offer, but my offer letter doesn't mention Rx at all. Is there likely going to bee any problem getting Rx work as a summer/getting an offer to return to the group? I imagine they're both very busy but also very in-demand.

They do. However with the open-assignment system, even if for example you were assigned Corp-Gen, you could still choose to do nothing but RX work all summer.

How do you know what group you're assigned to? My offer letter literally says nothing re: group status. Do we get assigned later?

The hiring partner told me on the phone, but my letter is similarly nondescript.

Just ask recruiting. I had a similar concern in Chi office and asked. The recruiter was happy to elaborate and confirm my primary interest noted in their system.

[Anonymous User]

Yeah if you're good enough to get a COA clerkship, there's no reason Kirkland should be anywhere near the top of your list. Unless you're going to Chicago (or SLC/Miami). This is true regardless of the BTI Fearsome Foursome (lol).

[Anonymous User]

Can't believe I'm dignifying this idiotic post with a response, but this reads like a 2L fantasy novel by someone super excited he accepted a summer offer at Paul Weiss over Kirkland. Kirkland was just named AmLaw's Litigation Department of the Year and it's been in BTI's Fearsome Foursome for a decade. The firm routinely handles some of the most prestigious and largest litigation matters in the country. The department (all 650 attorneys) is a major source of the firm's reputation, capability, and profitability, especially during less stable periods like the first couple quarters of COVID and then again in 2022. It's true that the trend of the firm has been more toward transactional in the past ten years in relative terms (like most firms in the V25), but the litigation and the transactional work go hand in hand (the cross-platform capability is a huge selling point for clients) and litigation is in the firm's DNA and always will be; there isn't a litigator here who if you asked them would claim they are an "afterthought" (what garbage). Finally, what happened with Clement has been brewing for years as part of some Game of Thrones power politics crap that has nothing to do with profitability or litigation vs. transactional or anything else other than big egos jockeying for influence.

Kirkland lit is fine. there are obviously better places to litigate, and there are obviously worse places to litigate. no need to get defensive. bolded is just...blatantly false and/or cringeworthy.

No one is being defensive just clearing up bullshit from someone with an obvious axe to grind (but who lacks actual knowledge)—“the Walmart of law.” Also nothing you’ve bolded is false. Not going to get into a pedants debate about whether you can find an attorney here or there who would disagree about the “afterthought” comment. Not sure why you’d argue the firm’s reputation isn’t based on lit just as much as corp; ten years ago, before any of this transactional wave (back when Kirkland’s biggest claim to fame in transactional spaces was just its mid market dominance), the firm was already V10. And the trans and lit groups are constantly cross selling.

I'm a Kirkland associate and agree that the bolded was cringe. BTI's Fearsome Four? Cross-platform capability? Almost shocked this cheerleader didn't include our Wins of the Week or Litigator of the Month awards.

Definitely true that at least some litigators feel that their (our) department is an afterthought to corporate. It's just how power and money work in 2022, would be naive to believe otherwise. And nothing this cheerleader is criticizing "reads like a 2L fantasy novel", that's a tired insult on these boards. We're all working attorneys who practice in the real world. Clement's departure has ramifications in the high-level lit and appellate markets. No point being defensive (or naive) about it.

Being a part of BTI's Fearsome Foursome isn't some easy marketing exercise it carries a significant amount of weight with clients. Claiming that Kirkland is becoming the "Walmart of Law Firms" isn't the "real world" it's exactly the cruft you'd find from a know-nothing 2L; Kirkland isn't DLA Piper San Diego and it was a stupid point. And the point about the firm being loaded up with crappy law students and lateral hires is, ironically, a criticism of the corporate practice if anything not litigation: all the talk in the past twenty-four months about Kirkland driving its reputation down because of bad recruits is being driven by corporate while litigation has maintained the same standards that it had pre-COVID. I'll qualify this by admitting that my perspective is Chicago-centric where Kirkland is the obvious top litigation firm here other than if you want boutique in which case you go Bartlit; maybe colleagues in NY, where the corp. work has grown so immensely and the lit. reputation wasn't as strong to begin with feel differently. But the point stands that the original post was full of nonsense.

Lol at using a list that includes Skadden as a talent pull in the elite lit world. And Jones Day, though at least JD is genuinely elite in some markets.

[Anonymous User]

What's the office/seating situation like for juniors in NY? Heard it was 2 to an interior office, all glass walls? Also how are office amenities in NY?

No it's a fearsome foursome.

[Anonymous User]

Can't believe I'm dignifying this idiotic post with a response, but this reads like a 2L fantasy novel by someone super excited he accepted a summer offer at Paul Weiss over Kirkland. Kirkland was just named AmLaw's Litigation Department of the Year and it's been in BTI's Fearsome Foursome for a decade. The firm routinely handles some of the most prestigious and largest litigation matters in the country. The department (all 650 attorneys) is a major source of the firm's reputation, capability, and profitability, especially during less stable periods like the first couple quarters of COVID and then again in 2022. It's true that the trend of the firm has been more toward transactional in the past ten years in relative terms (like most firms in the V25), but the litigation and the transactional work go hand in hand (the cross-platform capability is a huge selling point for clients) and litigation is in the firm's DNA and always will be; there isn't a litigator here who if you asked them would claim they are an "afterthought" (what garbage). Finally, what happened with Clement has been brewing for years as part of some Game of Thrones power politics crap that has nothing to do with profitability or litigation vs. transactional or anything else other than big egos jockeying for influence.

Kirkland lit is fine. there are obviously better places to litigate, and there are obviously worse places to litigate. no need to get defensive. bolded is just...blatantly false and/or cringeworthy.

No one is being defensive just clearing up bullshit from someone with an obvious axe to grind (but who lacks actual knowledge)—“the Walmart of law.” Also nothing you’ve bolded is false. Not going to get into a pedants debate about whether you can find an attorney here or there who would disagree about the “afterthought” comment. Not sure why you’d argue the firm’s reputation isn’t based on lit just as much as corp; ten years ago, before any of this transactional wave (back when Kirkland’s biggest claim to fame in transactional spaces was just its mid market dominance), the firm was already V10. And the trans and lit groups are constantly cross selling.

I'm a Kirkland associate and agree that the bolded was cringe. BTI's Fearsome Four? Cross-platform capability? Almost shocked this cheerleader didn't include our Wins of the Week or Litigator of the Month awards.

Definitely true that at least some litigators feel that their (our) department is an afterthought to corporate. It's just how power and money work in 2022, would be naive to believe otherwise. And nothing this cheerleader is criticizing "reads like a 2L fantasy novel", that's a tired insult on these boards. We're all working attorneys who practice in the real world. Clement's departure has ramifications in the high-level lit and appellate markets. No point being defensive (or naive) about it.

Being a part of BTI's Fearsome Foursome isn't some easy marketing exercise it carries a significant amount of weight with clients. Claiming that Kirkland is becoming the "Walmart of Law Firms" isn't the "real world" it's exactly the cruft you'd find from a know-nothing 2L; Kirkland isn't DLA Piper San Diego and it was a stupid point. And the point about the firm being loaded up with crappy law students and lateral hires is, ironically, a criticism of the corporate practice if anything not litigation: all the talk in the past twenty-four months about Kirkland driving its reputation down because of bad recruits is being driven by corporate while litigation has maintained the same standards that it had pre-COVID. I'll qualify this by admitting that my perspective is Chicago-centric where Kirkland is the obvious top litigation firm here other than if you want boutique in which case you go Bartlit; maybe colleagues in NY, where the corp. work has grown so immensely and the lit. reputation wasn't as strong to begin with feel differently. But the point stands that the original post was full of nonsense.

Lol at using a list that includes Skadden as a talent pull in the elite lit world. And Jones Day, though at least JD is genuinely elite in some markets.

I feel like there’s a disconnect going on in the comments and people are talking past each other while both sides are making accurate statements.

Places like Kirkland and Skadden (and Latham and Jones Day etc.) are absolutely highly regarded on a national level for huge corporate litigation matters, mass product defense, bet the company contract disputes, etc. Maybe “fearsome foursome” is a bad name but I don’t think, in context, it’s crazy to put e.g., Skadden on that sort of list.

At the same time, Kirkland isn’t Bancroft or Williams & Connolly or Gibson DC or (pick your ultra elite CoA focused high-end lit shop). There are pockets of any V10 that you could argue have that sort of credentialing but as a firm that’s not what Kirkland is about and that’s okay (probably more than okay to the transactional folks since why drag the profit margin down with “appellate” work lol)

Both positions are true and valid and people ITT are talking across each other a bit.

[Anonymous User]

Can't believe I'm dignifying this idiotic post with a response, but this reads like a 2L fantasy novel by someone super excited he accepted a summer offer at Paul Weiss over Kirkland. Kirkland was just named AmLaw's Litigation Department of the Year and it's been in BTI's Fearsome Foursome for a decade. The firm routinely handles some of the most prestigious and largest litigation matters in the country. The department (all 650 attorneys) is a major source of the firm's reputation, capability, and profitability, especially during less stable periods like the first couple quarters of COVID and then again in 2022. It's true that the trend of the firm has been more toward transactional in the past ten years in relative terms (like most firms in the V25), but the litigation and the transactional work go hand in hand (the cross-platform capability is a huge selling point for clients) and litigation is in the firm's DNA and always will be; there isn't a litigator here who if you asked them would claim they are an "afterthought" (what garbage). Finally, what happened with Clement has been brewing for years as part of some Game of Thrones power politics crap that has nothing to do with profitability or litigation vs. transactional or anything else other than big egos jockeying for influence.

Kirkland lit is fine. there are obviously better places to litigate, and there are obviously worse places to litigate. no need to get defensive. bolded is just...blatantly false and/or cringeworthy.

No one is being defensive just clearing up bullshit from someone with an obvious axe to grind (but who lacks actual knowledge)—“the Walmart of law.” Also nothing you’ve bolded is false. Not going to get into a pedants debate about whether you can find an attorney here or there who would disagree about the “afterthought” comment. Not sure why you’d argue the firm’s reputation isn’t based on lit just as much as corp; ten years ago, before any of this transactional wave (back when Kirkland’s biggest claim to fame in transactional spaces was just its mid market dominance), the firm was already V10. And the trans and lit groups are constantly cross selling.

I'm a Kirkland associate and agree that the bolded was cringe. BTI's Fearsome Four? Cross-platform capability? Almost shocked this cheerleader didn't include our Wins of the Week or Litigator of the Month awards.

Definitely true that at least some litigators feel that their (our) department is an afterthought to corporate. It's just how power and money work in 2022, would be naive to believe otherwise. And nothing this cheerleader is criticizing "reads like a 2L fantasy novel", that's a tired insult on these boards. We're all working attorneys who practice in the real world. Clement's departure has ramifications in the high-level lit and appellate markets. No point being defensive (or naive) about it.

Being a part of BTI's Fearsome Foursome isn't some easy marketing exercise it carries a significant amount of weight with clients. Claiming that Kirkland is becoming the "Walmart of Law Firms" isn't the "real world" it's exactly the cruft you'd find from a know-nothing 2L; Kirkland isn't DLA Piper San Diego and it was a stupid point. And the point about the firm being loaded up with crappy law students and lateral hires is, ironically, a criticism of the corporate practice if anything not litigation: all the talk in the past twenty-four months about Kirkland driving its reputation down because of bad recruits is being driven by corporate while litigation has maintained the same standards that it had pre-COVID. I'll qualify this by admitting that my perspective is Chicago-centric where Kirkland is the obvious top litigation firm here other than if you want boutique in which case you go Bartlit; maybe colleagues in NY, where the corp. work has grown so immensely and the lit. reputation wasn't as strong to begin with feel differently. But the point stands that the original post was full of nonsense.

Lol at using a list that includes Skadden as a talent pull in the elite lit world. And Jones Day, though at least JD is genuinely elite in some markets.

I feel like there’s a disconnect going on in the comments and people are talking past each other while both sides are making accurate statements.

Places like Kirkland and Skadden (and Latham and Jones Day etc.) are absolutely highly regarded on a national level for huge corporate litigation matters, mass product defense, bet the company contract disputes, etc. Maybe “fearsome foursome” is a bad name but I don’t think, in context, it’s crazy to put e.g., Skadden on that sort of list.

At the same time, Kirkland isn’t Bancroft or Williams & Connolly or Gibson DC or (pick your ultra elite CoA focused high-end lit shop). There are pockets of any V10 that you could argue have that sort of credentialing but as a firm that’s not what Kirkland is about and that’s okay (probably more than okay to the transactional folks since why drag the profit margin down with “appellate” work lol)

Both positions are true and valid and people ITT are talking across each other a bit.

Yeah. At my school, K&E was an excellent end if you wanted M&A/Rx/general lit in NY. If you wanted appellate or [insert hyper-prestigious subfield everyone wants to impress their classmates], there are [tbh, even pre-C&M, were] better options.

Personally, I blame elite law school culture for over-hyping appellate work.

[Anonymous User]

To whoever took issue with characterizing Kirkland as the Walmart of law firms, it's not necessarily an insult. Walmart is the largest company in the world by revenue, and Kirkland is the most profitable firm in the country. Most of this is driven by Kirkland's juggernaut transactions machine, which has been staggeringly successful in terms of pure dollar signs.

People are just pointing out that a place like that isn't the best landing spot for the ambitious litigator. Outback Steakhouse is orders of magnitude more profitable than a typical Zagat-rated fancy-pants restaurant. But litigators (highly credentialed ones, at least) prefer to work in the latter if they can.

Also, it's not accurate that DLA Piper is the Walmart of law firms. DLA Piper is more like Dollar General.