Kirkland Megathread Forum

[Anonymous User]

Has anyone ever heard of someone declining the "promotion" to NSP and just continuing on as an associate?

No, but everyone wants to once they find out about the taxes.

[Anonymous User]

Has anyone ever heard of someone declining the "promotion" to NSP and just continuing on as an associate?

No, but everyone wants to once they find out about the taxes.

I'm a senior associate at K&E and am genuinely thinking and wondering about this. I'm realistic and know that making it to SP is near-impossible, so why bother with the NSP rigmarole given how much worse it is than being a senior associate? It's a stupid/short-sighted incentive structure that K&E has set up, and it's def worth exploring other options at this point.

[Anonymous User]

Has anyone ever heard of someone declining the "promotion" to NSP and just continuing on as an associate?

No, but everyone wants to once they find out about the taxes.

As far as I understand it, doesn't NSP promotion net lower your taxes if you're in NY/CA? Since you'd now pay the blended rate that includes rates from lower-tax states. I know the healthcare question's a bit different but I always understood NSP status as a good deal tax-wise compared to senior associates at other NY/CA firms

[Anonymous User]

Has anyone ever heard of someone declining the "promotion" to NSP and just continuing on as an associate?

No, but everyone wants to once they find out about the taxes.

I'm a senior associate at K&E and am genuinely thinking and wondering about this. I'm realistic and know that making it to SP is near-impossible, so why bother with the NSP rigmarole given how much worse it is than being a senior associate? It's a stupid/short-sighted incentive structure that K&E has set up, and it's def worth exploring other options at this point.

There's zero chance you're a senior associate at K&E. The tax hit is nominal and you'd make it back and more even getting a normal bonus over NYC market. If you were actually at K&E you'd know this.

[Anonymous User]

I posted my actual numbers from prior tax returns here last year and got flamed so hard by KE stans I ended up deleting them. Basically, sure, you get a net raise from your 6th year, but you end up making less or the same money as a 7th year at a straight market paying firm (even accounting for Kirkland SHATTERS).

Also, 5-6 years being called "senior associates" at KE never fails to crack me up.

As far as I understand it, doesn't NSP promotion net lower your taxes if you're in NY/CA? Since you'd now pay the blended rate that includes rates from lower-tax states. I know the healthcare question's a bit different but I always understood NSP status as a good deal tax-wise compared to senior associates at other NY/CA firms

Not even close. The blended rates you get from other states is de minimis, and you have to pay all sorts of taxes/expenses that you don't as a W2 employee.

[Anonymous User]

I posted my actual numbers from prior tax returns here last year and got flamed so hard by KE stans I ended up deleting them. Basically, sure, you get a net raise from your 6th year, but you end up making less or the same money as a 7th year at a straight market paying firm (even accounting for Kirkland SHATTERS).

Also, 5-6 years being called "senior associates" at KE never fails to crack me up.

As far as I understand it, doesn't NSP promotion net lower your taxes if you're in NY/CA? Since you'd now pay the blended rate that includes rates from lower-tax states. I know the healthcare question's a bit different but I always understood NSP status as a good deal tax-wise compared to senior associates at other NY/CA firms

Not even close. The blended rates you get from other states is de minimis, and you have to pay all sorts of taxes/expenses that you don't as a W2 employee.

What on earth are you talking about re the blended rates from other states being de minimis? That's just flat-out not true. It's going to be a person-by-person on whether the allocations from Texas, Illinois, Florida, etc. are enough to make up for some of the other ways we get hit, but saying it's de minimis is just wrong, especially with the PTET election.

That's separate from the health insurance issue, which is a real and significant additional cost (though some people overlook that it's deductible, along with the deduction for the employer-side 401(k) contribution etc). Tax return prep costs, obviously, if you were previously doing your own. Employer-side FICA etc., definitely. I ran the numbers when I made NSP too, and while it was a hit, it's not the massive calamity some people make it out to be, especially if you are in NY or CA.

For people in Texas, Florida, Utah and Illinois to a somewhat lesser degree, it's obviously a lot worse (though even for those people, PTET has taken some of the sting out of it).

[Anonymous User]

Has anyone ever heard of someone declining the "promotion" to NSP and just continuing on as an associate?

No, but everyone wants to once they find out about the taxes.

I'm a senior associate at K&E and am genuinely thinking and wondering about this. I'm realistic and know that making it to SP is near-impossible, so why bother with the NSP rigmarole given how much worse it is than being a senior associate? It's a stupid/short-sighted incentive structure that K&E has set up, and it's def worth exploring other options at this point.

There's zero chance you're a senior associate at K&E. The tax hit is nominal and you'd make it back and more even getting a normal bonus over NYC market. If you were actually at K&E you'd know this.

Its clear you are not an NSP (I am). The NSP pay cut is more than $50k for first year NSP (non-resident state income tax, non-subsidized health insurance, having to pay both sides of social security, etc.). They also make you hold fairly high levels of umbrella insurance, life insurance, etc., which while good to have, the "rate" they withhold is much higher than what I was paying prior to making NSP. The bonuses are above market slightly, but you will absolutely make less than someone your year at a market paying firm that is still an "associate".

[Anonymous User]

Has anyone ever heard of someone declining the "promotion" to NSP and just continuing on as an associate?

No, but everyone wants to once they find out about the taxes.

I'm a senior associate at K&E and am genuinely thinking and wondering about this. I'm realistic and know that making it to SP is near-impossible, so why bother with the NSP rigmarole given how much worse it is than being a senior associate? It's a stupid/short-sighted incentive structure that K&E has set up, and it's def worth exploring other options at this point.

There's zero chance you're a senior associate at K&E. The tax hit is nominal and you'd make it back and more even getting a normal bonus over NYC market. If you were actually at K&E you'd know this.

Its clear you are not an NSP (I am). The NSP pay cut is more than $50k for first year NSP (non-resident state income tax, non-subsidized health insurance, having to pay both sides of social security, etc.). They also make you hold fairly high levels of umbrella insurance, life insurance, etc., which while good to have, the "rate" they withhold is much higher than what I was paying prior to making NSP. The bonuses are above market slightly, but you will absolutely make less than someone your year at a market paying firm that is still an "associate".

By this, do you mean that you made, as a first year NSP, $50k less than you made as a 6th year associate at Kirkland, or $50k less than your peers made as 7th year associates elsewhere, or something else?

[Anonymous User]

I made more than $50k less than I would have made from the firm I lateraled over from (market paying) as a "7th year" lawyer.

[Anonymous User]

Hey can anyone at KE (especially Chi) share what the current in office requirements and expectations are? Formally and informally.

[Anonymous User]

Hey can anyone at KE (especially Chi) share what the current in office requirements and expectations are? Formally and informally.

Informally -- in-office required T/W/Th

Formally -- I've heard no one enforces that but can't confirm

[Anonymous User]

3L here. Just want to say Kirkland's "gifts" for incoming associates are terrible. If anyone here has influence on the committee that makes these decisions, we need better swag!

On a different topic, how long until Kirkland shifts to the Sidley model of linking bonuses with office attendance?

[Anonymous User]

3L here. Just want to say Kirkland's "gifts" for incoming associates are terrible. If anyone here has influence on the committee that makes these decisions, we need better swag!

On a different topic, how long until Kirkland shifts to the Sidley model of linking bonuses with office attendance?

I don't know how that works when we have unlimited PTO. To my understanding, Sidley still has a set PTO amount, so I'm not sure how you are able to mandate attendance with an unlimited PTO policy.

[Anonymous User]

3L here. Just want to say Kirkland's "gifts" for incoming associates are terrible. If anyone here has influence on the committee that makes these decisions, we need better swag!

Incoming summer here—agreed. K&E’s been noticeably cheaper/slower than some other firms with gifts this year. Hopefully they heat up their game this summer.

[Anonymous User]

3L here. Just want to say Kirkland's "gifts" for incoming associates are terrible. If anyone here has influence on the committee that makes these decisions, we need better swag!

Incoming summer here—agreed. K&E’s been noticeably cheaper/slower than some other firms with gifts this year. Hopefully they heat up their game this summer.

What are the gifts for summers this year? In my year it was a pair of two cookies and a galaxy yeti mug. For incoming associate gifts, we got to choose from a branded water bottle that basically holds 8oz of water and what looked like a clunky branded bag that holds dog treats! We probably sound pretty ungrateful but it is what it is. Saw incoming Sidley summers sporting branded laptop cover bags that looked pretty sweet.

[Anonymous User]

3L here. Just want to say Kirkland's "gifts" for incoming associates are terrible. If anyone here has influence on the committee that makes these decisions, we need better swag!

Incoming summer here—agreed. K&E’s been noticeably cheaper/slower than some other firms with gifts this year. Hopefully they heat up their game this summer.

What are the gifts for summers this year? In my year it was a pair of two cookies and a galaxy yeti mug. For incoming associate gifts, we got to choose from a branded water bottle that basically holds 8oz of water and what looked like a clunky branded bag that holds dog treats! We probably sound pretty ungrateful but it is what it is. Saw incoming Sidley summers sporting branded laptop cover bags that looked pretty sweet.

Okay it’s slightly better than that. Choice of branded ocean 500ml water bottle, branded off-brand yeti cooler bag, or something else that I don’t remember. I ended up taking the water bottle—seemed like the thing I would use the most lol.

[Anonymous User]

3L here. Just want to say Kirkland's "gifts" for incoming associates are terrible. If anyone here has influence on the committee that makes these decisions, we need better swag!

Incoming summer here—agreed. K&E’s been noticeably cheaper/slower than some other firms with gifts this year. Hopefully they heat up their game this summer.

What are the gifts for summers this year? In my year it was a pair of two cookies and a galaxy yeti mug. For incoming associate gifts, we got to choose from a branded water bottle that basically holds 8oz of water and what looked like a clunky branded bag that holds dog treats! We probably sound pretty ungrateful but it is what it is. Saw incoming Sidley summers sporting branded laptop cover bags that looked pretty sweet.

Okay it’s slightly better than that. Choice of branded ocean 500ml water bottle, branded off-brand yeti cooler bag, or something else that I don’t remember. I ended up taking the water bottle—seemed like the thing I would use the most lol.

Another incoming summer. I also went with the water bottle. The third option was a Kirkland branded raycon speaker

[Anonymous User]

3L here. Just want to say Kirkland's "gifts" for incoming associates are terrible. If anyone here has influence on the committee that makes these decisions, we need better swag!

On a different topic, how long until Kirkland shifts to the Sidley model of linking bonuses with office attendance?

I don't know how that works when we have unlimited PTO. To my understanding, Sidley still has a set PTO amount, so I'm not sure how you are able to mandate attendance with an unlimited PTO policy.

Sidley has "unlimited" PTO and has for as long as I've been there (6+ years).

[Anonymous User]

When you become an NSP, does the firm force you to use their specific accounting firm? Or can you choose to keep working with a long-standing accountant relationship?

[Anonymous User]

When you become an NSP, does the firm force you to use their specific accounting firm? Or can you choose to keep working with a long-standing accountant relationship?

You can use a different accountant if the firm approves it.

[VEEP]

As a specialist who sometimes helps Rx out, that practice group does seem to have it rough. It's like a terrible combination of lit and transactional

Seems I've made a mistake choosing the RX group.

Now accepting positives about the Chicago RX group to make myself feel better.

PM me.

I didn't make the post you replied to here but am also on track to join Kirkland's RX group this fall and feel concerned having gone through the last 10-20 pages of this megathread. Do you mind PMing with me? If you don't, could you please send me a PM? I created this account today and I don't see the option to PM you at this time. Thanks so much!

[Anonymous User]

Can someone in restructuring at KE breakdown how much of the practice is litigation vs. corporate? how much research and writing is involved? and what is the standard for quality/bluebooking? In general, what are the the pros and cons of being in this practice group?

[Anonymous User]

Can someone in restructuring at KE breakdown how much of the practice is litigation vs. corporate? how much research and writing is involved? and what is the standard for quality/bluebooking? In general, what are the the pros and cons of being in this practice group?

I'd say it leans more litigation when you are junior and increasingly becomes more transactional as you become senior.

As a first year, much of your time will be researching, very little of it as you get more senior, but you have to review and direct research.

A lot of writing at all stages, mostly emails, but also motions, replies, and deal docs.

Very basic bluebooking only.

Biggest pro is it is genuinely interesting work. It's kind of the wild west of the law and you are constantly dealing with new and interesting things. Cons are it probably has the worst work/life balance and the exit options are generally awful.

[Anonymous User]

Can someone in restructuring at KE breakdown how much of the practice is litigation vs. corporate? how much research and writing is involved? and what is the standard for quality/bluebooking? In general, what are the the pros and cons of being in this practice group?

I'd say it leans more litigation when you are junior and increasingly becomes more transactional as you become senior.

As a first year, much of your time will be researching, very little of it as you get more senior, but you have to review and direct research.

A lot of writing at all stages, mostly emails, but also motions, replies, and deal docs.

Very basic bluebooking only.

Biggest pro is it is genuinely interesting work. It's kind of the wild west of the law and you are constantly dealing with new and interesting things. Cons are it probably has the worst work/life balance and the exit options are generally awful.

Thanks. Worried because I'm really not interested in legal writing and in research. May I ask, is the research writing formal? Does the quality of writing matter a lot? And is that the only thing I would as a junior?

Wondering if it is not too late to choose corporate. Restructuring seemed more interesting to me but I don't think I can handle around the clock legal research and writing. I've always heard it was a mix of transactional and litigation and just assumed that would mean there would be more involved as a junior than researching.

[Anonymous User]

Can someone in restructuring at KE breakdown how much of the practice is litigation vs. corporate? how much research and writing is involved? and what is the standard for quality/bluebooking? In general, what are the the pros and cons of being in this practice group?

I'd say it leans more litigation when you are junior and increasingly becomes more transactional as you become senior.

As a first year, much of your time will be researching, very little of it as you get more senior, but you have to review and direct research.

A lot of writing at all stages, mostly emails, but also motions, replies, and deal docs.

Very basic bluebooking only.

Biggest pro is it is genuinely interesting work. It's kind of the wild west of the law and you are constantly dealing with new and interesting things. Cons are it probably has the worst work/life balance and the exit options are generally awful.

Thanks. Worried because I'm really not interested in legal writing and in research. May I ask, is the research writing formal? Does the quality of writing matter a lot? And is that the only thing I would as a junior?

Wondering if it is not too late to choose corporate. Restructuring seemed more interesting to me but I don't think I can handle around the clock legal research and writing. I've always heard it was a mix of transactional and litigation and just assumed that would mean there would be more involved as a junior than researching.

I'm in RX. Your first two years in both RX and corporate will be foundational. In RX, you're learning first-day prep/motions, doing legal research (but not nearly to the extent you are in lit), drafting ppt decks for board meetings, drafting other briefs, and otherwise managing logistics. You also have some client contact at a low level. As you move up into years 3-4, you start to gain more exposure to DIPs and plan/DS discussions, which are both more corp-like (you also start to get court time). As a 5-6 year and above, you start to get more into a leadership role, and NSP beyond you're in the weeds on deal negotiations and case strategy and otherwise leading the day-to-day. The formal research precipitously declines as you move up, but having that foundation and knowledge of the Code is extremely helpful as you move up and start documenting deals.

And writing quality always matters.