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How much does it play a role in the treatment individuals receive? (anecdotes welcome)

why did this rancid shitpost have to be anonymous?

Probably way less than the generalized insecurity this post demonstrates

The Lsat Airbender wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:18 pm

why did this rancid shitpost have to be anonymous?

Genuinely don't understand why you're so outraged. You have the option of not reading or engaging with the thread.

ligma wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:19 pm

Probably way less than the generalized insecurity this post demonstrates

Am I supposed to be ashamed of being insecure about my physical appearance and having anxiety about my insecurities within a particular setting? I really don't understand the targeted comments here but okay.

95% of big law lawyers are between a 4 and a 6 out of 10. You see very few truly ugly people and very few actually attractive people

Obviously a lot, since all the top rainmakers are 10s. You'll sometimes see 8s or 9s that have phenomenal voices--they're the ones who keep their Zoom screens off and do everything on the phone.

This is only true in the V10, of course. Below that, you do start to see some 9s, but they also get less in profits.

For associates, the basic rule is you have to bill an extra 100 hours for every point below a 10 you are. The 2700-hour years you've heard about are usually from 3s and 4s just trying to hit their hour minimum.

Obviously there's an expectation to be well groomed etc, and there's always going to be implicit bias in favor of the attractive. But biglaw is not a place filled with models. There's a lot more Louis Litts than Harvey Spectors. Don't worry about it.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:27 pm

Obviously there's an expectation to be well groomed etc, and there's always going to be implicit bias in favor of the attractive. But biglaw is not a place filled with models. There's a lot more Louis Litts than Harvey Spectors. Don't worry about it.

I don't expect it to be a place where people are full of models or where they look like Harvey Spector. As a law student I've done a lot of networking and it feels like an overwhelming number of attorneys, based on their firm pictures, are pretty attractive. Far more so than me anyway.

This was probably a stupid post to make on my part based on the comments it is generating but thanks for your reassurance and feedback.

The people at my firm (Ropes) are better looking than your average American, but probably average looking for professionals in a big city. I would say that, as a firm, we have no policy or practice of discrimination based on attractiveness.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:23 pm

The Lsat Airbender wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:18 pm

why did this rancid shitpost have to be anonymous?

Genuinely don't understand why you're so outraged. You have the option of not reading or engaging with the thread.

ligma wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:19 pm

Probably way less than the generalized insecurity this post demonstrates

Am I supposed to be ashamed of being insecure about my physical appearance and having anxiety about my insecurities within a particular setting? I really don't understand the targeted comments here but okay.

OP I think it matters very little. If you are competent and hardworking partners will appreciate that regardless of what you look like. In fact, looks can cut both ways. If you look like a jock/supermodel people might (unfairly) presume you are dumb. If you look like a nerd people might assume you are smart. Either way, if you work with someone on a couple of assignments their preconceptions about you will disappear quickly. I know plenty of conventionally attractive people who sucked at BL and plenty of conventionally unattractive people who dominated. I wouldn't give this any more thought.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:27 pm

Obviously there's an expectation to be well groomed etc, and there's always going to be implicit bias in favor of the attractive. But biglaw is not a place filled with models. There's a lot more Louis Litts than Harvey Spectors. Don't worry about it.

I don't expect it to be a place where people are full of models or where they look like Harvey Spector. As a law student I've done a lot of networking and it feels like an overwhelming number of attorneys, based on their firm pictures, are pretty attractive. Far more so than me anyway.

This was probably a stupid post to make on my part based on the comments it is generating but thanks for your reassurance and feedback.

Also, a note on this: no one looks like their firm photos lol.

I remain convinced that 20% of the reason I lasted so long in biglaw is because I'm a tall, reasonably attractive, white male.

RunnerRunner wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:23 pm

The Lsat Airbender wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:18 pm

why did this rancid shitpost have to be anonymous?

Genuinely don't understand why you're so outraged. You have the option of not reading or engaging with the thread.

ligma wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:19 pm

Probably way less than the generalized insecurity this post demonstrates

Am I supposed to be ashamed of being insecure about my physical appearance and having anxiety about my insecurities within a particular setting? I really don't understand the targeted comments here but okay.

OP I think it matters very little. If you are competent and hardworking partners will appreciate that regardless of what you look like. In fact, looks can cut both ways. If you look like a jock/supermodel people might (unfairly) presume you are dumb. If you look like a nerd people might assume you are smart. Either way, if you work with someone on a couple of assignments their preconceptions about you will disappear quickly. I know plenty of conventionally attractive people who sucked at BL and plenty of conventionally unattractive people who dominated. I wouldn't give this any more thought.

Thanks! This is helpful and I can see I'm very clearly overthinking here.

RunnerRunner wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:27 pm

Obviously there's an expectation to be well groomed etc, and there's always going to be implicit bias in favor of the attractive. But biglaw is not a place filled with models. There's a lot more Louis Litts than Harvey Spectors. Don't worry about it.

I don't expect it to be a place where people are full of models or where they look like Harvey Spector. As a law student I've done a lot of networking and it feels like an overwhelming number of attorneys, based on their firm pictures, are pretty attractive. Far more so than me anyway.

This was probably a stupid post to make on my part based on the comments it is generating but thanks for your reassurance and feedback.

Also, a note on this: no one looks like their firm photos lol.

You beat me to it haha, but yeah good photographers + father time + covid beards & weight gains...

Also OP this was NOT a stupid question. Just this place is populated with sociopaths. You have to learn how to ignore them and focus on the good information between the assholes.

It matters probably about the same amount that it matters in any other profession that doesn’t require some kind of physical attractiveness or charisma (model/actor/broadcaster) or physical fitness (pro athlete/military) and requires a lot of education and some degree of intelligence. Physical attractiveness can definitely influence how people react to you, but it doesn’t determine your future, any more in biglaw than in life.

(Oh about photos - yeah they’re totally not representative. The other thing is that a lot of people in law firms are upper middle class with enough money to eat well and get exercise and get decent clothes/haircuts etc, which gives them a leg up as a group. Like when I first went to my undergrad, which was kind of fancy, and thought everyone was so. attractive. and golden! - well, yeah, they were all rich.)

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:27 pm

Obviously there's an expectation to be well groomed etc, and there's always going to be implicit bias in favor of the attractive. But biglaw is not a place filled with models. There's a lot more Louis Litts than Harvey Spectors. Don't worry about it.

I don't expect it to be a place where people are full of models or where they look like Harvey Spector. As a law student I've done a lot of networking and it feels like an overwhelming number of attorneys, based on their firm pictures, are pretty attractive. Far more so than me anyway.

This was probably a stupid post to make on my part based on the comments it is generating but thanks for your reassurance and feedback.

Those pictures are heavily staged and edited. Moreover, partners' photos are often over a decade old. The genre is closer to portraiture than photography and its main purpose is marketing.

I think in the pre-"me-too" era, ATL and other quality media outlets like the New York Post used to rate firms on this basis:
https://nypost.com/2013/11/19/new-yorks-sexiest-firms/
https://abovethelaw.com/2013/11/bow-bef ... glaw-firm/

Maybe a different take on the question, but, anecdotally, a female fellow SA who was attractive and tended to dress somewhat provocatively during some of the social events hosted in-person had a lot of negative comments said about her.

Probably the product of gender stereotypes and females being judged more than males based on appearance.

But even as a guy who is bulky— I do Olympic weightlifting as a hobby so I’m not lean— I’ve had a couple male partners make comments to me about losing a few pounds.

Prudent_Jurist wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:19 pm

Maybe a different take on the question, but, anecdotally, a female fellow SA who was attractive and tended to dress somewhat provocatively during some of the social events hosted in-person had a lot of negative comments said about her.

Probably the product of gender stereotypes and females being judged more than males based on appearance.

But even as a guy who is bulky— I do Olympic weightlifting as a hobby so I’m not lean— I’ve had a couple male partners make comments to me about losing a few pounds.

And I’m sure the people who made these comments were all themselves specimens of physical perfection!

But I agree that very attractive women (and probably men, though I think to a lesser extent) do face their own struggles professionally, as much as they may seem to be in an enviable position.

Like everything else in life, it helps to be attractive. But also like everything else in life, most people are average. Even if you consider yourself to be unattractive, as long as you look put together, you will be fine.

Prudent_Jurist wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:19 pm

Maybe a different take on the question, but, anecdotally, a female fellow SA who was attractive and tended to dress somewhat provocatively during some of the social events hosted in-person had a lot of negative comments said about her.

Probably the product of gender stereotypes and females being judged more than males based on appearance.

But even as a guy who is bulky— I do Olympic weightlifting as a hobby so I’m not lean— I’ve had a couple male partners make comments to me about losing a few pounds.

This surprises me (I'm a guy who could lose a few pounds and never got a comment like this) and I suspect that it was in jest, pretending that your muscle is fat.

Being an attractive female associate can definitely hurt. Speaking as a former BigLaw associate turned BigLaw legal recruiter, I frequently see female partners/seniors make attractive female associates' lives so miserable that they leave their firms (or the profession entirely)

Prudent_Jurist wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:19 pm

Maybe a different take on the question, but, anecdotally, a female fellow SA who was attractive and tended to dress somewhat provocatively during some of the social events hosted in-person had a lot of negative comments said about her.

Probably the product of gender stereotypes and females being judged more than males based on appearance.

But even as a guy who is bulky— I do Olympic weightlifting as a hobby so I’m not lean— I’ve had a couple male partners make comments to me about losing a few pounds.

In my firm you would be a god. We have a saying: "Always bet on bloat." Bloatlords = best rainmakers.

I think it can be a plus if you're a litigator - juries like charisma and part of charisma (for better or for worse) is looking the part.

That said, for every perfect 10 courtroom maestro, there's another disheveled, sickly looking attorney doing just as well. It's all about what brand you want to bring to the table.