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Class issues (low-income household) + firm life insecurities
Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:15 pm
by Anonymous User
I don't come from money. My mom works at a diner and my dad is a janitor. Simply put, I'm worried about how I'll fit in at my firm and how to connect with people that I don't have much in common with.
I am a reserved person and don't bring much attention to myself but I am worried most other people will be far more polished in their knowledge and presentation than I am. I worry about things like how to conventionally pronounce certain words and matters of general etiquette. For example I have never dined at a nice restaurant or stayed at a hotel. I find that there are certain things that seem to be common knowledge to my peers that I have absolutely no experience with. What can I do to bridge this gap?
Re: Class issues (low-income household) + firm life insecurities
Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:19 pm
by Anonymous User
To your question about "how to conventionally pronounce certain words," I use YouTube and search for "[word] pronunciation."
To your bigger picture question, focus on getting and then meeting your hours in years 1-3. Other things will become important as a midlevel/senior, but in order to get there, do excellent work, meet your hours, and you'll set yourself up nicely.
Re: Class issues (low-income household) + firm life insecurities
Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:27 pm
by Anonymous User
Nobody cares, half my office is from poor backgrounds.
Re: Class issues (low-income household) + firm life insecurities
Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:34 pm
by Lacepiece23
Congrats on breaking into the upper middle class. Don’t worry. You’ll learn how to act rich and only talk about money after less than a year of being in biglaw.
That’s all you peers will talk about and you will pick it up. One of the many bad side effects of big law.
Re: Class issues (low-income household) + firm life insecurities
Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:43 pm
by Anonymous User
Lacepiece23 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:34 pm
Congrats on breaking into the upper middle class. Don’t worry. You’ll learn how to act rich and only talk about money after less than a year of being in biglaw.
That’s all you peers will talk about and you will pick it up. One of the many bad side effects of big law.
Thanks for the welcome lol. This sounds miserable though. Do you think this experience is specific to your firm or is it pretty universal in big law?
Re: Class issues (low-income household) + firm life insecurities
Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:53 pm
by Anonymous User
Agree with others. lots of people don't come from money. Lots of people at your law school came from money, and lots didn't. Lots of your clients will have come from money, and lots won;t. Won't be much different than that. Bizarrely, a huge chunk of the people I worked with grew up on farms in the midwest. I literally couldn't tell the difference (besides some of their strongly held views about the quality or lack thereof of meat products).
Re: Class issues (low-income household) + firm life insecurities
Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 10:20 pm
by malibustacy
No one with real money or wealth becomes a lawyer these days.
Hence why firms wining and dining summers impresses them.
The worst thing you can do is to express such insecurities, or say outloud awkward things like what you've written in your post. Don't overcompensate for anything, undercompensate for anything - rich or poor everyone just eats, breathes and poos just the same in the end. There is no "gap" to really bridge.
Re: Class issues (low-income household) + firm life insecurities
Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 11:00 pm
by Anonymous User
My parents family is poor too. Janitors too actually so I know how that is. Just don't talk about it. It won't get you any points. Also, make sure to put your happiness first, not your family's.
Re: Class issues (low-income household) + firm life insecurities
Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 11:12 pm
by Lacepiece23
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:43 pm
Lacepiece23 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:34 pm
Congrats on breaking into the upper middle class. Don’t worry. You’ll learn how to act rich and only talk about money after less than a year of being in biglaw.
That’s all you peers will talk about and you will pick it up. One of the many bad side effects of big law.
Thanks for the welcome lol. This sounds miserable though. Do you think this experience is specific to your firm or is it pretty universal in big law?
Yeah, it’s pretty universal when this is your life. You’ll talk a lot about things like investment options, comp structures, partner pay, etc.
I didn’t really have very many conversations about what people spent money on. Just moreso how to obtain more of it.
But, seriously, congrats on breaking an economic ceiling. You should feel extremely proud.
Re: Class issues (low-income household) + firm life insecurities
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:34 am
by Anonymous User
I'm going to offer a different take from most of the other responses. Also grew up poor--both parents were restaurant workers etc etc.
I've leaned into it a bit because I can't escape it. I have an unusual life story compared to a lot of people I work with and I can spin that into some interesting conversation, including hamming it up a bit when useful.
At least for me, coming from this background has given me a pretty intense mix of "imposter syndrome" (when I'm having a day with enough clarity to recognize it for that, rather than actually believing it); chip on my shoulder from feeling like I constantly need to fight to prove that I belong in my [law school/firm/etc.]; comparative frugality (everyone is always one step away from the street, even if that's nonsensical because I have a few million in the bank); and disbelief/gratitude for being in the position that I am in (which makes dealing with the biglaw grind easier than it seems to be for many other people, because I feel like I know what it is to work harder than I feel like I work now for a heck of a lot less money). It's not the healthiest way to live from a psychological perspective, but it has led to my being reasonably successful in the context of biglaw.
That said, as I've gotten more senior, I've felt the direct downsides more. I don't have the network that people that grew up in different circumstances have--no meaningful connections from prior to law school and, even in law school, I didn't have the wherewithal to do the kind of things that lead to a strong network a decade down the road. I am not good at a lot of the typical client wooing stuff. I can't golf, play tennis, play squash, ski, boat, etc... just never had an opportunity to learn/do any of those things when I was younger and trying to pick it up now would just be disingenuous--and I don't have the time anyway. I've had to spend a lot of time and brainpower acclimating to the world I find myself in. It's something of a liability with respect to continuing to climb the ladder. If you really think you may have a hard time with this kind of stuff, you might consider thinking about whether you would enjoy being in one of the specialist practices that don't have quite the client development expectations associated with them.
I don't say any of that to discourage you though. Quite the opposite. A lot of folks shrug it off, not everyone can, I found it useful to know that and know it was still very possible to be very successful in this field even if you feel like a huge outsider. It's a heck of a lot easier if you can just roll with it like the others in the thread have said, but if you can't, just be aware that it's still very possible to thrive in this gig.
Re: Class issues (low-income household) + firm life insecurities
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:52 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:34 am
I'm going to offer a different take from most of the other responses. Also grew up poor--both parents were restaurant workers etc etc.
I've leaned into it a bit because I can't escape it. I have an unusual life story compared to a lot of people I work with and I can spin that into some interesting conversation, including hamming it up a bit when useful.
At least for me, coming from this background has given me a pretty intense mix of "imposter syndrome" (when I'm having a day with enough clarity to recognize it for that, rather than actually believing it); chip on my shoulder from feeling like I constantly need to fight to prove that I belong in my [law school/firm/etc.]; comparative frugality (everyone is always one step away from the street, even if that's nonsensical because I have a few million in the bank); and disbelief/gratitude for being in the position that I am in (which makes dealing with the biglaw grind easier than it seems to be for many other people, because I feel like I know what it is to work harder than I feel like I work now for a heck of a lot less money). It's not the healthiest way to live from a psychological perspective, but it has led to my being reasonably successful in the context of biglaw.
That said, as I've gotten more senior, I've felt the direct downsides more. I don't have the network that people that grew up in different circumstances have--no meaningful connections from prior to law school and, even in law school, I didn't have the wherewithal to do the kind of things that lead to a strong network a decade down the road. I am not good at a lot of the typical client wooing stuff. I can't golf, play tennis, play squash, ski, boat, etc... just never had an opportunity to learn/do any of those things when I was younger and trying to pick it up now would just be disingenuous--and I don't have the time anyway. I've had to spend a lot of time and brainpower acclimating to the world I find myself in. It's something of a liability with respect to continuing to climb the ladder. If you really think you may have a hard time with this kind of stuff, you might consider thinking about whether you would enjoy being in one of the specialist practices that don't have quite the client development expectations associated with them.
I don't say any of that to discourage you though. Quite the opposite. A lot of folks shrug it off, not everyone can, I found it useful to know that and know it was still very possible to be very successful in this field even if you feel like a huge outsider. It's a heck of a lot easier if you can just roll with it like the others in the thread have said, but if you can't, just be aware that it's still very possible to thrive in this gig.
This is so incredibly helpful and it was comforting to read. If you don't mind, I'll follow up on this after I've had some time to digest your insight. Hopefully you'll be alerted to my follow up thoughts and questions. Thanks!
Re: Class issues (low-income household) + firm life insecurities
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 8:34 am
by Anonymous User
While I understand the "no one cares" faction on here, I think it does matter, and there are things you can do.
First, every time you notice not "getting" something, make a mental note of it, and look it up later. For me, that happened a lot with travel locations, certain TV shows, brands, kinds of foods (different fish, different steaks), etc. In the moment, try to glean with context and naturally move the conversation along or sort of nod. Then, later, look it up. When I was doing summer events, somebody referred to getting "Pappy" after winning a big case. Pretty easy to know you're supposed to think that's fun, then look it up later (learn why people like it, that there's a state-by-state quota, that a bunch was stolen, etc.). You'll pick up everything pretty quickly, and this is a useful life skill anyway.
Second, if you're going to go do something you haven't done before, research it beforehand. This is super lame, for people who are used to experiences like this (they saw their parents do it), and you can just wing it, but if you were the type of person who enjoyed winging it you wouldn't have posted here. I don't like looking clueless, so I research things. For example, look up a bunch of hotel websites. Read reviews. Look up what hotels people think are good and which groups of hotels are commonly owned (i.e., same rewards programs). Look up the general prices and the reimbursement policy of your firm (you want to be below the max, but not by much). For actual "how does this work" stuff, look up "how to book a hotel" and "how to check into a hotel." For example, you should know the difference between the concierge and the front desk; you should know what valet parking is and how to deal with it; you should know what early check-out is; you should know that most hotels tack on more than the bill amount in anticipation of incidentals (they remove the charge later). You *will* regret it if you just wander into a random hotel you picked and ask the doorman how everything works while your co-workers are there. Will it be fine? Sure. But why go through that? Same process for other new experiences (nice restaurants: look up the menus, reviews, styles, be aware there will be specials, etc.). There are also videos explaining stuff.
Third: never lie about your life. People will absolutely be fine with the fact that you grew up poor. They won't want to hear *that* much about it, but you can absolutely bring it up if it's appropriate. The point of learning things is so that you can choose when it comes up, rather than having it raised in an awkward way through a misstep. Everyone loves a guy who made it from nothing, as long as he fits in *now*.
Re: Class issues (low-income household) + firm life insecurities
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 9:40 am
by nealric
malibustacy wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 10:20 pm
No one with real money or wealth becomes a lawyer these days.
Hence why firms wining and dining summers impresses them.
The worst thing you can do is to express such insecurities, or say outloud awkward things like what you've written in your post. Don't overcompensate for anything, undercompensate for anything - rich or poor everyone just eats, breathes and poos just the same in the end. There is no "gap" to really bridge.
Yes, but I do think that people from blue collar backgrounds are the exception. The median associate is probably from a middle to upper middle class family. Not old money wealth, but certainly comfortable.
For what it's worth, I did sometimes see the few associates from blue collar backgrounds experience some cultural issues (mostly in terms of dress), but absolutely nothing that would be a deal breaker.
Re: Class issues (low-income household) + firm life insecurities
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:31 am
by Anonymous User
Biglaw backgrounds will come from all walks of life. Poor, rich, middle class you name it.
I have worked with partners whose parents are worth $50 million plus and are just waiting for that inheritance, I have worked with partners who completely support their parents financially because they grew up in rural Alabama.
I think law firms probably have less classist shit overall than if you worked at some investment bank or the like where everyone was making 5x as much money.
Re: Class issues (low-income household) + firm life insecurities
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:37 pm
by Anonymous User
I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing, but BigLaw can be incredibly impersonal. I worked with one associate for well over two years before I learned she's a single mom from an inner city who had to join the military to pay for undergrad. She didn't "come off" any differently from any other competent young associate. I did have mad respect for her though. I would be ripping my hair out and complaining non-stop if I were a single parent in BigLaw (not to mention all the single parents who don't make six figures).
The partner I do almost all my work for is from rural Ohio and first in his family to go to college, and he (mostly jokingly) gives me shit all the time for being from a wealthy part of America. I do notice a difference between the partner and me though when it comes to work. He hustles nonstop and really seems to believe he needs to get rich and be frugal in order to provide for his kids. I on the other hand (first-generation; family is well-off but not "do whatever you want" rich) don't care so much about making partner or any amount of money past the already upper-middle-class associate scale. Maybe my kids won't be rich, but they'll be fine.
Re: Class issues (low-income household) + firm life insecurities
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 6:55 pm
by Anonymous User
nealric wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 9:40 am
malibustacy wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 10:20 pm
No one with real money or wealth becomes a lawyer these days.
Hence why firms wining and dining summers impresses them.
The worst thing you can do is to express such insecurities, or say outloud awkward things like what you've written in your post. Don't overcompensate for anything, undercompensate for anything - rich or poor everyone just eats, breathes and poos just the same in the end. There is no "gap" to really bridge.
Yes, but I do think that people from blue collar backgrounds are the exception. The median associate is probably from a middle to upper middle class family. Not old money wealth, but certainly comfortable.
For what it's worth, I did sometimes see the few associates from blue collar backgrounds experience some cultural issues (mostly in terms of dress), but absolutely nothing that would be a deal breaker.
Curious how can one tell the difference in terms of dressing sense. Serious question, grew up outside the country.
Re: Class issues (low-income household) + firm life insecurities
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 7:35 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 6:55 pm
Curious how can one tell the difference in terms of dressing sense. Serious question, grew up outside the country.
I can’t answer for nealric but there are certain “errors” that are usually giveaways: (e.g., for men) square-toe dress shoes, wearing black suits at inappropriate times, a tie that’s wrong for the occasion (a bright paisley for a formal event), and ill-fitting clothing in general.
Re: Class issues (low-income household) + firm life insecurities
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 7:51 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 7:35 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 6:55 pm
Curious how can one tell the difference in terms of dressing sense. Serious question, grew up outside the country.
Wow, thanks. I am already nervous lol. Have no clue about these "errors." I am sure I've made many more over the course of the last several years. Guessing biglaw demands better fashion.
I can’t answer for nealric but there are certain “errors” that are usually giveaways: (e.g., for men) square-toe dress shoes, wearing black suits at inappropriate times, a tie that’s wrong for the occasion (a bright paisley for a formal event), and ill-fitting clothing in general.
Re: Class issues (low-income household) + firm life insecurities
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 7:57 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 7:35 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 6:55 pm
Curious how can one tell the difference in terms of dressing sense. Serious question, grew up outside the country.
I can’t answer for nealric but there are certain “errors” that are usually giveaways: (e.g., for men) square-toe dress shoes, wearing black suits at inappropriate times, a tie that’s wrong for the occasion (a bright paisley for a formal event), and ill-fitting clothing in general.
There's also cheap, odd colored shirts (red, black), not matching shoes to belt, and the always terrible belt and suspenders.
Edit: But at the end of the day none of this matters. This is law, not fashion or the 10 o'clock news. You don't have to look good, you just need to do a good job.
Re: Class issues (low-income household) + firm life insecurities
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 8:19 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 7:57 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 7:35 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 6:55 pm
Curious how can one tell the difference in terms of dressing sense. Serious question, grew up outside the country.
I can’t answer for nealric but there are certain “errors” that are usually giveaways: (e.g., for men) square-toe dress shoes, wearing black suits at inappropriate times, a tie that’s wrong for the occasion (a bright paisley for a formal event), and ill-fitting clothing in general.
There's also cheap, odd colored shirts (red, black), not matching shoes to belt, and the always terrible belt and suspenders.
I don’t disagree with this. I also just don’t care. I’d also point out that tons of upper class lawyers are also terrible dressers. Lawyers in general are terrible dressers. I mostly just care if you make my life easier or harder based on your work. What clothes you wear don’t make my life harder or better.
Re: Class issues (low-income household) + firm life insecurities
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 8:46 pm
by Anonymous User
OP unless you're wearing polyester or dress like your only frame of reference for dress clothes is your great aunt's funeral, just chill. Look around you and try to wear approximately what others do, it's not a big deal.
Re: Class issues (low-income household) + firm life insecurities
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 9:43 pm
by Anonymous User
(And especially if you’re a woman, polyester is frequently totally fine.)
Re: Class issues (low-income household) + firm life insecurities
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:30 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 7:57 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 7:35 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 6:55 pm
Curious how can one tell the difference in terms of dressing sense. Serious question, grew up outside the country.
I can’t answer for nealric but there are certain “errors” that are usually giveaways: (e.g., for men) square-toe dress shoes, wearing black suits at inappropriate times, a tie that’s wrong for the occasion (a bright paisley for a formal event), and ill-fitting clothing in general.
There's also cheap, odd colored shirts (red, black), not matching shoes to belt, and the always terrible belt and suspenders.
The one cool thing about BigLaw is that if your good at your job and bill 2400+ hours a year, you don't need to trouble yourself with the concerns you have in your original post. Your bosses and your clients won't have a care in the world about these dress "errors". You can wear $120 mens wearhouse suits for all of your time in big law, with cheap non-fitted dress shirts from Marshalls and $45 clearance dress shoes and still become a well-respected senior associate on partner track. They also don't care if you dined at Per Se or Cracker Barrel the night before, as long as you responded to their email at 11:00 PM. All hypothetically speaking, of course...
Re: Class issues (low-income household) + firm life insecurities
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:36 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:30 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 7:57 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 7:35 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 6:55 pm
Curious how can one tell the difference in terms of dressing sense. Serious question, grew up outside the country.
I can’t answer for nealric but there are certain “errors” that are usually giveaways: (e.g., for men) square-toe dress shoes, wearing black suits at inappropriate times, a tie that’s wrong for the occasion (a bright paisley for a formal event), and ill-fitting clothing in general.
There's also cheap, odd colored shirts (red, black), not matching shoes to belt, and the always terrible belt and suspenders.
The one cool thing about BigLaw is that if your good at your job and bill 2400+ hours a year, you don't need to trouble yourself with the concerns you have in your original post. Your bosses and your clients won't have a care in the world about these dress "errors". You can wear $120 mens wearhouse suits for all of your time in big law, with cheap non-fitted dress shirts from Marshalls and $45 clearance dress shoes and still become a well-respected senior associate on partner track. They also don't care if you dined at Per Se or Cracker Barrel the night before, as long as you responded to their email at 11:00 PM. All hypothetically speaking, of course...
I don't think this is right, actually. Performing like this *might* get you all the way to non-equity partner at a firm that has enough rainmakers that they're ok paying you a lot just for the work. But for that little extra, you do need to dress, look, and act the part. Or else you'll most likely be relegated to a second-tier status as a back office guy, no matter how senior you are or how long you last. You're at that point expected to generate work, not just do it well. And that's a whole different ball game, where legal skills and work ethic are neither necessary nor sufficient.
Re: Class issues (low-income household) + firm life insecurities
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:59 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:36 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:30 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 7:57 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 7:35 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 6:55 pm
Curious how can one tell the difference in terms of dressing sense. Serious question, grew up outside the country.
I can’t answer for nealric but there are certain “errors” that are usually giveaways: (e.g., for men) square-toe dress shoes, wearing black suits at inappropriate times, a tie that’s wrong for the occasion (a bright paisley for a formal event), and ill-fitting clothing in general.
There's also cheap, odd colored shirts (red, black), not matching shoes to belt, and the always terrible belt and suspenders.
The one cool thing about BigLaw is that if your good at your job and bill 2400+ hours a year, you don't need to trouble yourself with the concerns you have in your original post. Your bosses and your clients won't have a care in the world about these dress "errors". You can wear $120 mens wearhouse suits for all of your time in big law, with cheap non-fitted dress shirts from Marshalls and $45 clearance dress shoes and still become a well-respected senior associate on partner track. They also don't care if you dined at Per Se or Cracker Barrel the night before, as long as you responded to their email at 11:00 PM. All hypothetically speaking, of course...
I don't think this is right, actually. Performing like this *might* get you all the way to non-equity partner at a firm that has enough rainmakers that they're ok paying you a lot just for the work. But for that little extra, you do need to dress, look, and act the part. Or else you'll most likely be relegated to a second-tier status as a back office guy, no matter how senior you are or how long you last. You're at that point expected to generate work, not just do it well. And that's a whole different ball game, where legal skills and work ethic are neither necessary nor sufficient.
Quoted anon. I see your point. It is hard to tell how much any of this matters at this point because we haven't been to the office or worn dress clothes in 2 years. Even still, being relegated to a non-equity, service partner role on a long term basis and making close to a mill a year because you can't be bothered to "look, dress and act the part" - maybe that isn't such a bad outcome? For me and as someone from a background similar to OP, I'd rather end up there 1000x versus learning to be someone I'm not. I frankly couldn't give two shits about how much another associate's dress shoes cost. But I sure as hell care if they drop the ball on sending me good work product and I have to fix it at 2am.