Unicorn Work Life Balance Jobs Forum

[Anonymous User]

Probably not going to happen below 125k.

That being said, things are what you make of them. Make it a 9 to 5 job and let the chips fall where they may. I know this sounds ridiculous but things are only as stressful and demanding as you make them. Of course, this has its limits. You will always have deadlines which you need to meet, but if you can manage your calendar and delegate, you can get some semblance of work life balance.

If none of that works, bail and work for the da gubment.

125k? Wtf?

I'm about to lateral and retool to M&A from Finance. But, I tested the in-house market as a finance associate and everywhere I interviewed had total comp between 200-250k for 9-7 workload.

Part of the reason that I'm laterally is that I just don't like finance work and don't want to end up at a bank/fund. Is in house comp for m&a significantly lower or something?

What year were you? How hard was it to retool to M&A, did you lose any class years?

Also what does a 9-7 workload actually look like, does anyone know? Unplugged after 7 and on weekends? Is it like a typical white collar job where a good chunk of your time is coffee breaks and surfing?

OP here who is moving from finance to m&a. I'm a 4th year and taking 1 year class cut. I haven't started yet, so not sure how hard the transition will be. However, it was probably a bit easier for me to get the job given that I did a good amount of junior level m&a (diligence etc.)

Obviously never took the 9-7 in house, but my understanding was that it would be on average 9-7. There would be maybe a couple of times a year that would end up being a late night trying to push a deal to close and practically no weekend work.

[Anonymous User]

I’m 9:00-5:00 most days at about 285k all in comp. I’ll respond to emails on my phone at night usually, but no more than 5-10 minutes a night. Sometimes I’ll do an hour or two of work at night or on the weekend. I don’t think my life would be meaningfully better if it was a true 9:00-5:00 with no emails after hours and literally no extra work, so maybe just shoot for close to 9:00-5:00.

[Anonymous User]

Yeah, AUSA or Main Justice jobs aren't really cushy 9-5 jobs. Like, they're much better than biglaw (lots of autonomy, vacations are respected, etc.), but if you want guaranteed 9-5, anything that involves trial can't guarantee that consistently. If you can get into city or county government in a nice place to live, maybe? I know someone who did this in Seattle and it was great. There are also very un-prestigious government jobs that don't let you work more than 40 hours a week, like some VA and SS jobs, but they are very un-prestigious because they're low-level, repetitive, tedious work (usually capped at pretty low pay).

Mmm I would mostly disagree. Spouse and I are both litigators in two different respectable agencies (think DOJ/SEC/FTC/CFPB) and outside of the rare case that goes to trial (happened once in six years) these jobs really do not require more than 30 hrs a week in the vast majority of weeks, people don't email you after 5 pm, and your six weeks of paid time off a year are respected by everyone. Just be sure to get a gig with GS15 promotion potential and stick to the civil enforcement side, since criminal cases go to trial all the time.

[Anonymous User]

OP here who is moving from finance to m&a. I'm a 4th year and taking 1 year class cut. I haven't started yet, so not sure how hard the transition will be. However, it was probably a bit easier for me to get the job given that I did a good amount of junior level m&a (diligence etc.)

Wish there was a way to PM anon to anon, but a few follow ups.
1. How hard was it to lateral to M&A? Would it have been possible within the firm?
2. What kind of diligence? Specifically M&A diligence or is diligence fungible?
3. Did being from finance make it harder to get in house? Or restrict you to banks etc?

[Anonymous User]

Second year in a V10 M&A practice here. I feel like I've aged more than a decade in the last year just from the stress and lack of sleep. I've begun the lateral process to be able to get a bit of a breather but am very demoralized at the idea of just starting over and needing to grind for awhile longer at a new firm all for the hope of some ramp down/time off/ ramp up time. I've taken several weeks of vacation but have never been able to fully unplug on them and usually just come back dreading the work even more.

All of that to say, I've become increasingly desperate for the unicorn 9-5, work life balance job. I've been applying to lots of in-house roles and haven't had too much traction given I'm still very junior, but have had a handful of interviews and have gotten the clear impression in every one that the lawyers there are still dealing with very high workloads and long hours.

So, I came to crowdsource - where I should be looking for ideal work-life balance jobs? I'm well aware this will come at a salary trade-off, which I'm comfortable with to a certain extent (I still have six figures of student loans so I wouldn't be comfortable going below 125k or so in salary).

Had a pretty similar experience at a V10 focusing on IP support for M&A. Burned out pretty immediately and started managing workload while collecting my paycheck until I got a "talk". Lateraled to another V10 doing the same thing, finished paying off my loans, and then started interviewing for in-house at the end of my 3rd year.
It can take a lot of applications and interviews, but was lucky enough to find a product counsel role in the fintech space with really good work-life balance and total comp ~$250 k. After a couple years, pay bumps, equity, and better understanding of benefit maximization have pushed that over $300 k.
My boss and clients are located in other offices, so there was never a facetime requirement and I haven't been to the office for 2 years. I expect we'll move to a hybrid model post covid ( ). I occasionally jump on calls outside of hours due to timezone differences, but never any heavy lifting outside of 9-5 M-F (including half day fridays in the summer!). I work out, handle chores, go to appointments, prep dinner during working hours, so it's not even a real 9-5 grind.
Main point is that it's definitely possible, but there are also a lot of in-house jobs that are only just a little better than biglaw.

[Anonymous User]

Yeah, AUSA or Main Justice jobs aren't really cushy 9-5 jobs. Like, they're much better than biglaw (lots of autonomy, vacations are respected, etc.), but if you want guaranteed 9-5, anything that involves trial can't guarantee that consistently. If you can get into city or county government in a nice place to live, maybe? I know someone who did this in Seattle and it was great. There are also very un-prestigious government jobs that don't let you work more than 40 hours a week, like some VA and SS jobs, but they are very un-prestigious because they're low-level, repetitive, tedious work (usually capped at pretty low pay).

Mmm I would mostly disagree. Spouse and I are both litigators in two different respectable agencies (think DOJ/SEC/FTC/CFPB) and outside of the rare case that goes to trial (happened once in six years) these jobs really do not require more than 30 hrs a week in the vast majority of weeks, people don't email you after 5 pm, and your six weeks of paid time off a year are respected by everyone. Just be sure to get a gig with GS15 promotion potential and stick to the civil enforcement side, since criminal cases go to trial all the time.

Fair enough, I probably know too many people on the criminal side of things and should have been clearer, but that's what I was trying to get at when I said "anything that involves trial." I agree wrt to people respecting your time (emails/calls after hours are almost never out of the blue, only when needed for things like trials or emergencies, and vacation is respected). I wish I didn't have more than 30 hrs a week of work, but again, still much better than biglaw.

[Anonymous User]

Would like to know people's thoughts about this for litigators. The usual answer is government; however, I have friends who went into (fairly prestigious-for-a-4th-year fedgov) gov jobs and they still work more than I want to. Definitely less than biglaw, though. Is there anything close to 9:00 to 5:00 for a litigator outside of working for, like, a county government in the middle of nowhere?

It does seem specialization is the key in litigation. I have several friends in litigation/white collar who have even one iota of privacy experience, and they're getting snapped up pretty quickly by FAANGM. Even insurance litigation gets you an in with in-house jobs.

On the other hand, every non-specialized "pure" litigation and white collar midlevel I know has a very difficult if not impossible getting anything but a government job.

This is interesting to me -- I am a mid-level at a white collar boutique and always thought my only exits were government, since that is what everyone seems to do. From what you've seen, would being at a boutique (and so possibly having more varied/hands-on experience compensate for the lack of privacy work? Or would you be treated just like a big law white collar person?

[Anonymous User]

Would like to know people's thoughts about this for litigators. The usual answer is government; however, I have friends who went into (fairly prestigious-for-a-4th-year fedgov) gov jobs and they still work more than I want to. Definitely less than biglaw, though. Is there anything close to 9:00 to 5:00 for a litigator outside of working for, like, a county government in the middle of nowhere?

It does seem specialization is the key in litigation. I have several friends in litigation/white collar who have even one iota of privacy experience, and they're getting snapped up pretty quickly by FAANGM. Even insurance litigation gets you an in with in-house jobs.

On the other hand, every non-specialized "pure" litigation and white collar midlevel I know has a very difficult if not impossible getting anything but a government job.

This is interesting to me -- I am a mid-level at a white collar boutique and always thought my only exits were government, since that is what everyone seems to do. From what you've seen, would being at a boutique (and so possibly having more varied/hands-on experience compensate for the lack of privacy work? Or would you be treated just like a big law white collar person?

Same anon as above. No clue - I don't know anyone who does WC at a boutique or who has come from one into another job. I do have friends in civil lit boutiques, and it seems the benefit of that is that they get real trial experience and are on track to become trial litigators. But if you want to be a trial litigator, you're sure as hell not gonna do that in-house.

I work at a big firm with big civil litigation and white collar groups - each big enough that there are some associates who specialize and some who are generalists. All the specialists ended up getting a specialty through a combination of asking for it and dumb luck, except for those with some non-law background that lends itself to IP or privacy or something, and came to the firm with the promise of that work.

[Anonymous User]

OP here who is moving from finance to m&a. I'm a 4th year and taking 1 year class cut. I haven't started yet, so not sure how hard the transition will be. However, it was probably a bit easier for me to get the job given that I did a good amount of junior level m&a (diligence etc.)

Wish there was a way to PM anon to anon, but a few follow ups.
1. How hard was it to lateral to M&A? Would it have been possible within the firm?
2. What kind of diligence? Specifically M&A diligence or is diligence fungible?
3. Did being from finance make it harder to get in house? Or restrict you to banks etc?

1. Not super hard, but your mileage may vary. I was in m&a for a significant portion of time as a first year (think rotational/free market kind of program). My finance practice also works a lot with m&a (I don't want to go in on specifics on this as it may identify me, but we're heavily involved in assisting our M&A team on their diligence even outside of financing context).

2. I'd argue diligence is fungible - it's just reading contracts and summarizing/identifying issues. The types of contracts you read are different - for example, I never dealt with employee benefits, ERISA and IP. So there'll be a learning curve there for me, and I'll need to play catch-up here. I plan on finding materials on these topics to get a bit of background before starting the new position.

On the flip side, I think most M&A associates struggle with credit, security and hedging documents, that'll come pretty easy to me. Tax and high level structuring is tough for anyone, but coming in as a third year, it's probably not expected that I have a good grasp on that yet.

3. The primary opportunities I was getting was banks/private equity/hedge funds. I also got bites from smaller PE/portfolio companies and bond ratings agency/insurance work. I never tried for big tech, but people in my group have ended up at Amazon/FB/Google. None of those options were particularly appealing to me for an in-house position.

That being said, I was not looking for a 9-5 chill role and would rather take a swiss army knife role at startup/small company and try to carveout a more operational/business + legal role. Those opportunities were not coming my way as a finance associate. However, if your goal is to take any chill in-house role that pays well, there's a lot of opportunity in finance. Personally, I don't think 9-5 exists in any NY job that pays you $200k, but I think 9-7 and 200k+ is realistic for a finance associate based on my experiences. Edit: I'll say this also - no way anyone hires a finance associate below 3rd year as a finance associate. Even 3rd year is a bit early as the sweet spot in finance is years 4-7, but the market was insane last year and people need bodies.

[bruinfan10]

Would like to know people's thoughts about this for litigators. The usual answer is government; however, I have friends who went into (fairly prestigious-for-a-4th-year fedgov) gov jobs and they still work more than I want to. Definitely less than biglaw, though. Is there anything close to 9:00 to 5:00 for a litigator outside of working for, like, a county government in the middle of nowhere?

It does seem specialization is the key in litigation. I have several friends in litigation/white collar who have even one iota of privacy experience, and they're getting snapped up pretty quickly by FAANGM. Even insurance litigation gets you an in with in-house jobs.

On the other hand, every non-specialized "pure" litigation and white collar midlevel I know has a very difficult if not impossible getting anything but a government job.

This is interesting to me -- I am a mid-level at a white collar boutique and always thought my only exits were government, since that is what everyone seems to do. From what you've seen, would being at a boutique (and so possibly having more varied/hands-on experience compensate for the lack of privacy work? Or would you be treated just like a big law white collar person?

No. You will be treated like just another biglaw person (if the recruiter or hiring contact even recognizes your boutique).

[Anonymous User]

I work 9-5 as a government attorney in Boston. The pay is less than 125k, I am pursuing PSLF for my loans and I went to a law school which provides loan repayment assistance for those in public service. We work in a hybrid model where we are in the office twice a week (minimum) (not right now during Omicron). I was able to make this move largely because I saved a good amount during my time in big law, especially with the COVID student loan freezes. I made the jump to government in early 2021.

[Inhousefuture]

Checking in as in-house at a tech start-up, where it's definitely cushy. 9-5 hours, 200k+ pay with equity, basically all remote (I can come in whenever I want but it's not required), and I have great flexibility in my hours (can run errands or take my kids/spouse out during the day and finish work later).

You're still early in your career, it'll be hard to find unicorn jobs until you've got some more experience under your belt. But you don't have to wait, start looking now. You never know what you may find.

How many years of BL did it take for you to get this type of job? How did you find/qualify for this role? Do you have any Business/Operations Tasks?

Thanks

[Lawman1865]

Checking in as in-house at a tech start-up, where it's definitely cushy. 9-5 hours, 200k+ pay with equity, basically all remote (I can come in whenever I want but it's not required), and I have great flexibility in my hours (can run errands or take my kids/spouse out during the day and finish work later).

You're still early in your career, it'll be hard to find unicorn jobs until you've got some more experience under your belt. But you don't have to wait, start looking now. You never know what you may find.

How many years of BL did it take for you to get this type of job? How did you find/qualify for this role? Do you have any Business/Operations Tasks?

Thanks

Building on this point, can those with the 9-5 in house roles in the transactional space (e.g. tech company, F500, etc.) speak to any skills that they would have liked to have picked up or focused on while in biglaw? Are there certain areas that would be helpful to shorten the learning curve? Perhaps an emphasis on certain kinds of contracts? Is there any particularly helpful pro-bono work that is similar to the kind of work you get in-house?

Just a cap markets attorney here trying to set himself up for success, thanks!

[Anonymous User]

Checking in as in-house at a tech start-up, where it's definitely cushy. 9-5 hours, 200k+ pay with equity, basically all remote (I can come in whenever I want but it's not required), and I have great flexibility in my hours (can run errands or take my kids/spouse out during the day and finish work later).

You're still early in your career, it'll be hard to find unicorn jobs until you've got some more experience under your belt. But you don't have to wait, start looking now. You never know what you may find.

How many years of BL did it take for you to get this type of job? How did you find/qualify for this role? Do you have any Business/Operations Tasks?

Thanks

I spent 4 years in BL, then moved to a smaller firm, then in-house at a large company before this. So it was a long journey, I did not land this straight from BL. I found it through a LinkedIn posting and qualified because I had the experience for it (they needed someone very generalist who can handle everything that came their way). I have no official business/ops duties, but I do pitch in whenever necessary because it's a start-up and you have to be flexible and jump on things that need to get done.

Building on this point, can those with the 9-5 in house roles in the transactional space (e.g. tech company, F500, etc.) speak to any skills that they would have liked to have picked up or focused on while in biglaw? Are there certain areas that would be helpful to shorten the learning curve? Perhaps an emphasis on certain kinds of contracts? Is there any particularly helpful pro-bono work that is similar to the kind of work you get in-house?

Just a cap markets attorney here trying to set himself up for success, thanks!

It depends on the industry. I'm in biotech, so there's consulting agreements, sponsored research agreements, materials transfer agreements, license agreements, CRO (contract research organization) agreements, etc.

[Anonymous User]

Hours are often much better in smaller markets. I’m surprised they aren’t more popular, especially in lit, where a lot of people actually want to litigate in firms indefinitely.

[Anonymous User]

If you're in M&A and corporate, these jobs definitely exist. I did 3 years of M&A in big law, got an in-house gig that was mostly chill and usually 9-5. Came with a paycut, but total comp was over $200k. After a few years in-house, I found another gig in-house where I make mid-300s and still almost always 9-5. It might take some time to get, but you'll find these jobs. Just keep gaining experience and probably start applying for in-house gigs and work with a recruiter at the start of your 3rd year. That's when you start being viable to go in-house

Thanks for giving me some hope after a long ass day.

[Anonymous User]

That being said, I was not looking for a 9-5 chill role and would rather take a swiss army knife role at startup/small company and try to carveout a more operational/business + legal role. Those opportunities were not coming my way as a finance associate. However, if your goal is to take any chill in-house role that pays well, there's a lot of opportunity in finance. Personally, I don't think 9-5 exists in any NY job that pays you $200k, but I think 9-7 and 200k+ is realistic for a finance associate based on my experiences. Edit: I'll say this also - no way anyone hires a finance associate below 3rd year as a finance associate. Even 3rd year is a bit early as the sweet spot in finance is years 4-7, but the market was insane last year and people need bodies.

After yet another day sacrificed at the alter of LevFi, I sincerely appreciate these posts. I'm a 3rd year and have labored under the belief that 5th year is when I will become viable for in-house (finance exits being slower to arise), but maybe I can get out in 2023.

I've actually been talking to a recruiter and he thinks the current state of the market makes me a potential candidate for the right situation, but I have to be careful not to jump down to a role that is overly juniorized.

[phan]

Checking in as in-house at a tech start-up, where it's definitely cushy. 9-5 hours, 200k+ pay with equity, basically all remote (I can come in whenever I want but it's not required), and I have great flexibility in my hours (can run errands or take my kids/spouse out during the day and finish work later).

You're still early in your career, it'll be hard to find unicorn jobs until you've got some more experience under your belt. But you don't have to wait, start looking now. You never know what you may find.

How many years did you work until you landed your in-house gig?

[Anonymous User]

Checking in as in-house at a tech start-up, where it's definitely cushy. 9-5 hours, 200k+ pay with equity, basically all remote (I can come in whenever I want but it's not required), and I have great flexibility in my hours (can run errands or take my kids/spouse out during the day and finish work later).

You're still early in your career, it'll be hard to find unicorn jobs until you've got some more experience under your belt. But you don't have to wait, start looking now. You never know what you may find.

How many years did you work until you landed your in-house gig?

11 years. I was in-house for a few years at a large multi-national before landing the start-up job.

[Inhousefuture]

Checking in as in-house at a tech start-up, where it's definitely cushy. 9-5 hours, 200k+ pay with equity, basically all remote (I can come in whenever I want but it's not required), and I have great flexibility in my hours (can run errands or take my kids/spouse out during the day and finish work later).

You're still early in your career, it'll be hard to find unicorn jobs until you've got some more experience under your belt. But you don't have to wait, start looking now. You never know what you may find.

How many years of BL did it take for you to get this type of job? How did you find/qualify for this role? Do you have any Business/Operations Tasks?

Thanks

I spent 4 years in BL, then moved to a smaller firm, then in-house at a large company before this. So it was a long journey, I did not land this straight from BL. I found it through a LinkedIn posting and qualified because I had the experience for it (they needed someone very generalist who can handle everything that came their way). I have no official business/ops duties, but I do pitch in whenever necessary because it's a start-up and you have to be flexible and jump on things that need to get done.

Building on this point, can those with the 9-5 in house roles in the transactional space (e.g. tech company, F500, etc.) speak to any skills that they would have liked to have picked up or focused on while in biglaw? Are there certain areas that would be helpful to shorten the learning curve? Perhaps an emphasis on certain kinds of contracts? Is there any particularly helpful pro-bono work that is similar to the kind of work you get in-house?

Just a cap markets attorney here trying to set himself up for success, thanks!

It depends on the industry. I'm in biotech, so there's consulting agreements, sponsored research agreements, materials transfer agreements, license agreements, CRO (contract research organization) agreements, etc.

How hard was it for you to get your first in-house job at a multinational? Since some start-up lawyers , like you, do pitch in with certain business/operations tasks is working in-house as a startup lawyer a good stepping stone to a business role within the startup world? What are some other trajectories people have taken to become startup lawyers?

Thanks

[Anonymous User]

How hard was it for you to get your first in-house job at a multinational? Since some start-up lawyers , like you, do pitch in with certain business/operations tasks is working in-house as a startup lawyer a good stepping stone to a business role within the startup world? What are some other trajectories people have taken to become startup lawyers?

Thanks

It was pretty hard getting my foot in the door of the in-house world. I probably had about 8-10 applications get to the second-round interview stage or later before I finally got an offer.

Being a start-up lawyer can be a good stepping stone to the business side, but it depends on what you make of it and if the company you are in allows you to step into the business/ops side of things. That's not always the case - they may just want you to be in the lawyer role and have other people dedicated to the other tasks. You have to feel that out before you join a start-up.

There are a number of ways to become a start-up lawyer, but they all require experience because start-ups need someone to hit the ground running without any training. I've seen other people come from law firms both big and small, or other in-house roles. The main thing you need to prove is that you are a self-starter, flexible, and willing to grow and tackle anything that comes your way. Things change quickly at start-ups, so you need to be adaptable and show initiative rather than someone that sits around waiting to be told what to do.

[Anonymous User]

Checking in as another ex-biglaw lawyer in a unicorn work life balance job now.

I did PE M&A for a total of six years at two different firms before finally making the jump in-house last year. I'm now in a corporate generalist position with a large private company. I'm essentially the sole in-house lawyer for a division so the work is really varied (everything from negotiating commercial agreements to managing litigation to dealing with personnel issues). I make mid-300s all in and the job is a true 9-5 (except for the occasional early or late call to accommodate time zones) with respected weekends and holidays.

It took me about a year of looking fairly seriously to find this job. My experience was that finding an in-house job as an M&A lawyer after you hit around year 3-4 is pretty easy, but finding a unicorn job is really tough. There were a number of positions which I either turned down or withdrew from the interview process before finishing because the combo of comp/work life balance/interesting work didn't line up. Comp in particular seems to be all over the map. As a 6th year I had interviews for positions that wanted to pay sub-200k all in (mostly older blue chips that would require a move to a smaller market) and positions that would match biglaw (PE shops) but wanted essentially biglaw hours.

Having been in-house now for about a year I couldn't be happier I made the switch, it's impossible to describe how much better the lifestyle is.

[Anonymous User]

Biglaw can get a lot better as you get more senior, if you're at the right firm/working for the right partners and clients. I worked like crazy as a junior associate, but now I'm a 7th year, have never gotten anything less than a full bonus, and usually work 930-630, plus a few extra hours in the evening maybe once or twice a week and some weekend work once or twice a month. There are busy spurts where this doesn't hold true, but that's probably a total of 6 weeks a year where it's substantially more for a sustained period. So it's not 40 hours a week, but rarely more than 50-55 and for $500k.

[Anonymous User]

Biglaw can get a lot better as you get more senior, if you're at the right firm/working for the right partners and clients. I worked like crazy as a junior associate, but now I'm a 7th year, have never gotten anything less than a full bonus, and usually work 930-630, plus a few extra hours in the evening maybe once or twice a week and some weekend work once or twice a month. There are busy spurts where this doesn't hold true, but that's probably a total of 6 weeks a year where it's substantially more for a sustained period. So it's not 40 hours a week, but rarely more than 50-55 and for $500k.

Your mileage may vary, as they say.

I'm a 6th year and while the work has gotten marginally more interesting as I get more senior, the pressure and the workload have increased a lot every single year (whereas I did not work like crazy as a junior associate), even though the partners are work for are mostly good and the clients are great. I recently realized biglaw is not for me, both in the substance of the work and in the amount of work it takes to make partner, so I'm going in-house next month. It's a substantial pay cut, and I'm sure there will be some work and people I'll miss from the firm, but hoping it's worth it because I prefer a slightly more boring job, being surrounded by fewer lawyers, less contentious litigation, and of course, way better hours and vacation time.

[Anonymous User]

Biglaw can get a lot better as you get more senior, if you're at the right firm/working for the right partners and clients. I worked like crazy as a junior associate, but now I'm a 7th year, have never gotten anything less than a full bonus, and usually work 930-630, plus a few extra hours in the evening maybe once or twice a week and some weekend work once or twice a month. There are busy spurts where this doesn't hold true, but that's probably a total of 6 weeks a year where it's substantially more for a sustained period. So it's not 40 hours a week, but rarely more than 50-55 and for $500k.

I think the thing to think about here is whether you want to have that sort of lifestyle for the rest of your life and, if not, what you're planning to do for your exit. 50-55 hours a week is fine if you have no significant non-work commitments (notably young children), but it gets a lot harder once you have important things that need to get done independent of work.

Once you get too senior, whether deserved or not, in house positions will be harder to come by, as you'll be a lot less competitive than someone at your class level who went in house as a midlevel and has several years of in house experience under their belt. Also, if you're not going for partnership, consider that the partners will start to see you as a threat to their equity pie the more senior you get (and act accordingly).