More of a historical thing because they were a relative newcomer to the space in the 70's and 80's and had to take sell-side representations (which are necessarily one-offs and therefore less appealing to the traditional model). They do plenty of buy-side nowadays. Also, sell-side work dovetails with takeover defense; hostile takeovers are less common nowadays but that's always been a point of pride.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:21 pmThis is off topic but I heard Wachtell focuses on sell side m&a and just wondering why that might be the case. Any thoughts?
Wachtell compensation data points? Forum
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Re: Wachtell compensation data points?
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Re: Wachtell compensation data points?
Also off topic but I’m curious now that the door has opened. We’ve all heard that WLRK traditionally does not bill its clients hourly, and instead takes small % cuts of huge deals — a big reason why it’s more profitable than any other biglaw firm.
But I’m curious about the economics on the litigation side . . . is WLRK charging clients materially higher hourly rates versus a CSM/S&C/PW? To the extent WLRK does any plaintiff-side work (IDK?), do they do contingency fee arrangements?
In the same vein, does WLRK have above-market rates in its restructuring practice? It just seems like so much of the firm’s stellar reputation is grounded in pubco M&A; I wonder how much that parlays into pricing power outside of the firm’s core domain.
But I’m curious about the economics on the litigation side . . . is WLRK charging clients materially higher hourly rates versus a CSM/S&C/PW? To the extent WLRK does any plaintiff-side work (IDK?), do they do contingency fee arrangements?
In the same vein, does WLRK have above-market rates in its restructuring practice? It just seems like so much of the firm’s stellar reputation is grounded in pubco M&A; I wonder how much that parlays into pricing power outside of the firm’s core domain.
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Re: Wachtell compensation data points?
This goes back to the founders of WLRK never wanting one client to be a significant portion of the firm's business and only wanting to take deals that they find interesting. If you focus on sell-side work, you're not going to have to worry about a company becoming too much of your business, and you don't have to handle all of their shitty deals to also keep getting their good ones like buy-side shops have to do to some degree. Not so long ago, white shoe firms were terribly diversified and some clients made up 20-30% of their revenue. It's good to have some whales, but you do not want whales to the extent that if you somehow lost their business it could pose an existential threat to your firm.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:21 pmThis is off topic but I heard Wachtell focuses on sell side m&a and just wondering why that might be the case. Any thoughts?
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Re: Wachtell compensation data points?
Can confirm 3 things:
(1) They hire laterally (I received a recruiting call from them).
(2) Bonuses are still typically 100% of base (they said so in the recruiting call).
(3) Even so, they pay less *per hour* than most big law firms due to the fact most of their associates bill over 4000 hours per year, whereas you can bill half that amount at many Cravath-scale firms (I declined to interview for this reason).
(1) They hire laterally (I received a recruiting call from them).
(2) Bonuses are still typically 100% of base (they said so in the recruiting call).
(3) Even so, they pay less *per hour* than most big law firms due to the fact most of their associates bill over 4000 hours per year, whereas you can bill half that amount at many Cravath-scale firms (I declined to interview for this reason).
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Re: Wachtell compensation data points?
4000 hours seems like an exaggeration. That is an average of 11 hours a day for every day out of the year. Like I get that Wachtell people bill a lot, but PPP is $7.1 million versus $6.4 million at DPW and $6.1 million at Kirkland. The average Kirkland associate is not billing, proportionally, 3400 hours (assuming that Wachtell's billing rates are equal, which they probably are not).Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:53 pmCan confirm 3 things:
(1) They hire laterally (I received a recruiting call from them).
(2) Bonuses are still typically 100% of base (they said so in the recruiting call).
(3) Even so, they pay less *per hour* than most big law firms due to the fact most of their associates bill over 4000 hours per year, whereas you can bill half that amount at many Cravath-scale firms (I declined to interview for this reason).
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Re: Wachtell compensation data points?
I don’t know about 4000, but the three people I know (knew, two since left) at Wachtell never had a year under 2700, and some years considerably higher than that. These were real numbers, not bravado happy hour dick measuring. As anyone who has ever gotten close to those hours in a particularly bad year can appreciate, a 2700 floor is incredibly brutal. Even when you’re making 1.5x as much as your friends from school.
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Re: Wachtell compensation data points?
I encourage you to ignore that anon, who is more than likely the same weird troll from this thread:parkslope wrote: ↑Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:06 pm4000 hours seems like an exaggeration. That is an average of 11 hours a day for every day out of the year. Like I get that Wachtell people bill a lot, but PPP is $7.1 million versus $6.4 million at DPW and $6.1 million at Kirkland. The average Kirkland associate is not billing, proportionally, 3400 hours (assuming that Wachtell's billing rates are equal, which they probably are not).Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:53 pmCan confirm 3 things:
(1) They hire laterally (I received a recruiting call from them).
(2) Bonuses are still typically 100% of base (they said so in the recruiting call).
(3) Even so, they pay less *per hour* than most big law firms due to the fact most of their associates bill over 4000 hours per year, whereas you can bill half that amount at many Cravath-scale firms (I declined to interview for this reason).
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=311427&hilit=4000& ... #p10496639
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Re: Wachtell compensation data points?
The whole per-hour thing is hilarious cope anyway. It would make sense for an hourly factory job with regular shifts but, even if you're billing two thousand hours/year, biglaw is a 24/7 job. I don't mean to downplay the QoL margin between 2200 hours and 2700 hours; it's huge, but it's just that: a QoL difference.ExpOriental wrote: ↑Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:48 pmI encourage you to ignore that anon, who is more than likely the same weird troll from this thread:parkslope wrote: ↑Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:06 pm4000 hours seems like an exaggeration. That is an average of 11 hours a day for every day out of the year. Like I get that Wachtell people bill a lot, but PPP is $7.1 million versus $6.4 million at DPW and $6.1 million at Kirkland. The average Kirkland associate is not billing, proportionally, 3400 hours (assuming that Wachtell's billing rates are equal, which they probably are not).Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:53 pmCan confirm 3 things:
(1) They hire laterally (I received a recruiting call from them).
(2) Bonuses are still typically 100% of base (they said so in the recruiting call).
(3) Even so, they pay less *per hour* than most big law firms due to the fact most of their associates bill over 4000 hours per year, whereas you can bill half that amount at many Cravath-scale firms (I declined to interview for this reason).
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=311427&hilit=4000& ... #p10496639
Separately, lol @ 4,000 hours
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Re: Wachtell compensation data points?
I was contacted by a recruiter who regularly works with WLRK this past summer. S/he told me they were actively looking to hire a lateral for litigation. (The recruiter also mentioned that it's rare that they hire laterals into lit.) The recruiter also confirmed, in writing, that the bonus there is 100% of the annual base. So I think we can put to bed any concern that that number is not accurate, as a floor. We have plenty of independent sources confirming that and I don't know why the firm tells its people not to divulge it (kind of obnoxious of them, IMO).
Anyway, I didn't get the job after applying. I saw from their site that they ended up hiring a woman who graduated from HLS, clerked on CA2, and then worked at DPW before lateraling to them. So yeah the standards are high, lol...
Anyway, I didn't get the job after applying. I saw from their site that they ended up hiring a woman who graduated from HLS, clerked on CA2, and then worked at DPW before lateraling to them. So yeah the standards are high, lol...
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Re: Wachtell compensation data points?
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:57 pmI was contacted by a recruiter who regularly works with WLRK this past summer. S/he told me they were actively looking to hire a lateral for litigation. (The recruiter also mentioned that it's rare that they hire laterals into lit.) The recruiter also confirmed, in writing, that the bonus there is 100% of the annual base. So I think we can put to bed any concern that that number is not accurate, as a floor. We have plenty of independent sources confirming that and I don't know why the firm tells its people not to divulge it (kind of obnoxious of them, IMO).
Anyway, I didn't get the job after applying. I saw from their site that they ended up hiring a woman who graduated from HLS, clerked on CA2, and then worked at DPW before lateraling to them. So yeah the standards are high, lol...
Curious what your credentials vaguely are for them to reach out of the blue. Like V10? V20? Magna from HYS/T6? Also, does anyone know if you can apply directly to the firm for lateral openings? Or do they just ignore unsolicited apps? Thanks!
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Re: Wachtell compensation data points?
I'm the anon above. I was also HLS and working at a litigation boutique. But I hadn't clerked on CA2 like this other person.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:07 pmAnonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:57 pmI was contacted by a recruiter who regularly works with WLRK this past summer. S/he told me they were actively looking to hire a lateral for litigation. (The recruiter also mentioned that it's rare that they hire laterals into lit.) The recruiter also confirmed, in writing, that the bonus there is 100% of the annual base. So I think we can put to bed any concern that that number is not accurate, as a floor. We have plenty of independent sources confirming that and I don't know why the firm tells its people not to divulge it (kind of obnoxious of them, IMO).
Anyway, I didn't get the job after applying. I saw from their site that they ended up hiring a woman who graduated from HLS, clerked on CA2, and then worked at DPW before lateraling to them. So yeah the standards are high, lol...
Curious what your credentials vaguely are for them to reach out of the blue. Like V10? V20? Magna from HYS/T6? Also, does anyone know if you can apply directly to the firm for lateral openings? Or do they just ignore unsolicited apps? Thanks!
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Re: Wachtell compensation data points?
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:09 pmI'm the anon above. I was also HLS and working at a litigation boutique. But I hadn't clerked on CA2 like this other person.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:07 pmAnonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:57 pmI was contacted by a recruiter who regularly works with WLRK this past summer. S/he told me they were actively looking to hire a lateral for litigation. (The recruiter also mentioned that it's rare that they hire laterals into lit.) The recruiter also confirmed, in writing, that the bonus there is 100% of the annual base. So I think we can put to bed any concern that that number is not accurate, as a floor. We have plenty of independent sources confirming that and I don't know why the firm tells its people not to divulge it (kind of obnoxious of them, IMO).
Anyway, I didn't get the job after applying. I saw from their site that they ended up hiring a woman who graduated from HLS, clerked on CA2, and then worked at DPW before lateraling to them. So yeah the standards are high, lol...
Curious what your credentials vaguely are for them to reach out of the blue. Like V10? V20? Magna from HYS/T6? Also, does anyone know if you can apply directly to the firm for lateral openings? Or do they just ignore unsolicited apps? Thanks!
Got it. Thanks for sharing
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Re: Wachtell compensation data points?
There is a strict blanket policy about leaking any kind of nonpublic information. Unironically inspired by a tell-all book someone wrote (Tombstones: A Lawyer's Tales from the Takeover Decades). "Wait, that book was published three decades ago." Yes, and the same people are still in charge.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:57 pmWe have plenty of independent sources confirming that and I don't know why the firm tells its people not to divulge it (kind of obnoxious of them, IMO).
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Re: Wachtell compensation data points?
Echoing above. For most of us, it's not about creating mystery and intrigue around the Firm. We just don't want a post with specific compensation numbers getting aggregated by Above the Law or whatever. That would really piss off the partnership. And as much as I love TLS, I have no interest in being the subject of an Executive Committee witch-hunt to find the "leaker"...
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Re: Wachtell compensation data points?
But *why* would it piss off the partnership? That's what I don't get.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 5:39 pmEchoing above. For most of us, it's not about creating mystery and intrigue around the Firm. We just don't want a post with specific compensation numbers getting aggregated by Above the Law or whatever. That would really piss off the partnership. And as much as I love TLS, I have no interest in being the subject of an Executive Committee witch-hunt to find the "leaker"...
The other poster above said there's a blanket rule prohibiting the disclosure of non-public info. But of course, the whole question is why that specific information is deemed to be non-public, from WLRK's perspective (and given the reality that we all know what it is anyway). It's hard to come up with some reason other than, precisely, creating mystery and intrigue around the firm.
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Re: Wachtell compensation data points?
Adding another data point. HYS, V10 corporate.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:07 pmAnonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:57 pmI was contacted by a recruiter who regularly works with WLRK this past summer. S/he told me they were actively looking to hire a lateral for litigation. (The recruiter also mentioned that it's rare that they hire laterals into lit.) The recruiter also confirmed, in writing, that the bonus there is 100% of the annual base. So I think we can put to bed any concern that that number is not accurate, as a floor. We have plenty of independent sources confirming that and I don't know why the firm tells its people not to divulge it (kind of obnoxious of them, IMO).
Anyway, I didn't get the job after applying. I saw from their site that they ended up hiring a woman who graduated from HLS, clerked on CA2, and then worked at DPW before lateraling to them. So yeah the standards are high, lol...
Curious what your credentials vaguely are for them to reach out of the blue. Like V10? V20? Magna from HYS/T6? Also, does anyone know if you can apply directly to the firm for lateral openings? Or do they just ignore unsolicited apps? Thanks!
I never reached out to anyone, a recruiter working with the firm contacted me.
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Re: Wachtell compensation data points?
The view is it's better if clients don't know how much junior associates make. If some American Lawyer article comes out, competitors start forwarding it around -- "You're paying them all this money so their 28 year olds can buy Rolexes" etc.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 5:50 pmBut *why* would it piss off the partnership? That's what I don't get.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 5:39 pmEchoing above. For most of us, it's not about creating mystery and intrigue around the Firm. We just don't want a post with specific compensation numbers getting aggregated by Above the Law or whatever. That would really piss off the partnership. And as much as I love TLS, I have no interest in being the subject of an Executive Committee witch-hunt to find the "leaker"...
The other poster above said there's a blanket rule prohibiting the disclosure of non-public info. But of course, the whole question is why that specific information is deemed to be non-public, from WLRK's perspective (and given the reality that we all know what it is anyway). It's hard to come up with some reason other than, precisely, creating mystery and intrigue around the firm.
Are there rumors, yeah. But it's not currently top of mind for the people deciding whether to hire us. They're not keeping up with message boards. Preference is it stays there.
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Re: Wachtell compensation data points?
Wachtell considers laterals that apply directly on the website and I know they have hired at least one. The lateral was well credentialed - YLS, V5 biglaw, Fed. clerkship, etc.
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Re: Wachtell compensation data points?
There's a bunch of laterals, if you check the bios of their associates on LinkedIn. Definitely not all from TLSAnonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:13 pmWachtell considers laterals that apply directly on the website and I know they have hired at least one. The lateral was well credentialed - YLS, V5 biglaw, Fed. clerkship, etc.
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Re: Wachtell compensation data points?
Employee compensation is proprietary, competitively-sensitive information for ... basically every employer in every industry? It's the Milbank-scale biglaw shops, with their unique oligopsonistic pricing, that are unusual. WLRK keeps this stuff close to the chest for the same reasons as any off-market firm, whether below-market, above-market or Jones Day weirdnessAnonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 5:50 pmBut *why* would it piss off the partnership? That's what I don't get.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 5:39 pmEchoing above. For most of us, it's not about creating mystery and intrigue around the Firm. We just don't want a post with specific compensation numbers getting aggregated by Above the Law or whatever. That would really piss off the partnership. And as much as I love TLS, I have no interest in being the subject of an Executive Committee witch-hunt to find the "leaker"...
The other poster above said there's a blanket rule prohibiting the disclosure of non-public info. But of course, the whole question is why that specific information is deemed to be non-public, from WLRK's perspective (and given the reality that we all know what it is anyway). It's hard to come up with some reason other than, precisely, creating mystery and intrigue around the firm.
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Re: Wachtell compensation data points?
Yeah, WLRK hires probably 2 laterals a year on average. 95% of them historically come from top law schools. If you didn't go to Yale, Harvard, Columbia, Chicago, NYU then your odds are basically 0. There are some people who get hired from other schools, but not a meaningful number.Moneytrees wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 12:30 amThere's a bunch of laterals, if you check the bios of their associates on LinkedIn. Definitely not all from TLSAnonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:13 pmWachtell considers laterals that apply directly on the website and I know they have hired at least one. The lateral was well credentialed - YLS, V5 biglaw, Fed. clerkship, etc.
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Re: Wachtell compensation data points?
Correct me if I'm wrong - doesn't Wachtell use lockstep? In that respect it's different than Jones Day, where associates could out themselves by revealing their individualized salary. Not to mention, Jones Day associates have shared datapoints on this forum using the anonymous feature. I'm struggling to see the risk.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 2:50 pmEmployee compensation is proprietary, competitively-sensitive information for ... basically every employer in every industry? It's the Milbank-scale biglaw shops, with their unique oligopsonistic pricing, that are unusual. WLRK keeps this stuff close to the chest for the same reasons as any off-market firm, whether below-market, above-market or Jones Day weirdnessAnonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 5:50 pmBut *why* would it piss off the partnership? That's what I don't get.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 5:39 pmEchoing above. For most of us, it's not about creating mystery and intrigue around the Firm. We just don't want a post with specific compensation numbers getting aggregated by Above the Law or whatever. That would really piss off the partnership. And as much as I love TLS, I have no interest in being the subject of an Executive Committee witch-hunt to find the "leaker"...
The other poster above said there's a blanket rule prohibiting the disclosure of non-public info. But of course, the whole question is why that specific information is deemed to be non-public, from WLRK's perspective (and given the reality that we all know what it is anyway). It's hard to come up with some reason other than, precisely, creating mystery and intrigue around the firm.
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Re: Wachtell compensation data points?
Does anyone know how total compensation at the elite lit boutiques would compare to Wachtell, assuming 100% of salary as bonus? Those shops seem even more opaque than Wachtell does at times.
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Re: Wachtell compensation data points?
It's been covered on this site before, but WLRK will outpace the elite lit boutiques over a period of time, starting usually at year 3. So (assuming you have the decision to choose among them and ONLY want to max out your $$ for a short period of time and leave), it's a close call between Susman, Kellogg, and maybe a few others (though the bonus and all-in comp data is more sparse w/r/t firms other than Susman and Kellogg, b/c they have a shorter track record of high bonuses; it's maybe S&G and BSF [though, lol at BSF...]) on the one hand and WLRK on the other.
But if you plan or aim to stay longer than 2 years, WLRK will reliably outpace the rest. Kellogg frontloads with massive starting bonuses (you have to have been a clerk), and Susman's tend to be more variable year to year. BSF's can be comparable, but...it's BSF. WLRK's are rock solid, 100% of base. The catch is that the work's less interesting and less varied, but YMMV.
But if you plan or aim to stay longer than 2 years, WLRK will reliably outpace the rest. Kellogg frontloads with massive starting bonuses (you have to have been a clerk), and Susman's tend to be more variable year to year. BSF's can be comparable, but...it's BSF. WLRK's are rock solid, 100% of base. The catch is that the work's less interesting and less varied, but YMMV.
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Re: Wachtell compensation data points?
This sounds like a Grisham novelAnonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 5:39 pmEchoing above. For most of us, it's not about creating mystery and intrigue around the Firm. We just don't want a post with specific compensation numbers getting aggregated by Above the Law or whatever. That would really piss off the partnership. And as much as I love TLS, I have no interest in being the subject of an Executive Committee witch-hunt to find the "leaker"...
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