Milbank/Davis Polk/Cravath Scale: NYC to 215-415k Forum

[glitched]

My guess is DPW has already decided to up the salary. Now they're debating whether to dangle a spring bonus paid out in March/April to retain some people. The salary bump will probably not be enough to retain people since it pays out so slowly.

[Anonymous User]

As a mid level, I’m making between $540,000 and $600,000…who in PE/banking is laughing at that? Morgan Stanley top bucket for associates was like $500k this year…lower for mid.

[Anonymous User]

My guess is DPW has already decided to up the salary. Now they're debating whether to dangle a spring bonus paid out in March/April to retain some people. The salary bump will probably not be enough to retain people since it pays out so slowly.

DPW announcing a scale match + spring bonus would be glorious. Don't get our hopes up like this.

[Anonymous User]

As a mid level, I’m making between $540,000 and $600,000…who in PE/banking is laughing at that? Morgan Stanley top bucket for associates was like $500k this year…lower for mid.

People at real PE firms that aren't Morgan Stanley? Also the comp. gap grows the more senior you get.

[almostperfectt]

As a mid level, I’m making between $540,000 and $600,000…who in PE/banking is laughing at that? Morgan Stanley top bucket for associates was like $500k this year…lower for mid.

Wait where are you getting these figures for a mid-level? 5th year (solidly mid level) lockstep comp last year all in was about $450,000.

Plus, VP at banking is basically senior associate at biglaw and I think the gap starts to really grow there.

[Anonymous User]

No shit, but comparing MD to equity partner and Directors to junior equity partners/even good NSPs at a v50 is the relevant comparison. Where is the comp difference? Especially considering that the promotion from AS to VP is far from lockstep.

[Anonymous User]

It should also be noted that DPW took its time to announce bonuses after Cravath did. 2 weeks from Nov 22 to DPW announcing on Dec 6.

Delay by design?

This was my same thought; don't get all the "what's going on" posts when we saw exactly this playbook less than two months ago. What's going on is DPW isn't in any rush, just like they weren't in a rush during bonus season. DPW and Milbank have become recognized as the de facto compensation leaders of the industry during COVID and neither of them feel compelled to rush when there's a comp. change happening. It'll happen eventually, either with another scale raise or a solidification on a DPW announcement.

Salary is a different beast though because it is biweekly. I don't know when DPW's next pay period is, but I imagine if they are going to raise, there is more pressure to get it into that pay period or the next versus bonuses, which some firms don't even pay until March.

[Anonymous User]

6th year on current scale lockstep makes $535,000 with special bonuses. Most good firms will add $30,000 on top at least for above market hours of 2300-2400. Generally only top bucket will get VP promotion (25%) and even there you are likely to get between 500 and 600 for the next 2 years.

[Anonymous User]

It should also be noted that DPW took its time to announce bonuses after Cravath did. 2 weeks from Nov 22 to DPW announcing on Dec 6.

Delay by design?

This was my same thought; don't get all the "what's going on" posts when we saw exactly this playbook less than two months ago. What's going on is DPW isn't in any rush, just like they weren't in a rush during bonus season. DPW and Milbank have become recognized as the de facto compensation leaders of the industry during COVID and neither of them feel compelled to rush when there's a comp. change happening. It'll happen eventually, either with another scale raise or a solidification on a DPW announcement.

Salary is a different beast though because it is biweekly. I don't know when DPW's next pay period is, but I imagine if they are going to raise, there is more pressure to get it into that pay period or the next versus bonuses, which some firms don't even pay until March.

DPW pays on the 15th and 30th. So I think tomorrow is the next payday (or Monday).

And to give an idea, DPW paid 2021 bonus out much later than they normally do. Probably because they announced it relatively late.

[Anonymous User]

Is that really life at DLA? in M&A / corporate?

So DLA pays market, your hours are 9-8 M-F? That sounds like an inhouse gig TBH

Working 55 hours a week consistently is not a good thing in the vast majority of industries outside of psycho biglaw. Just wanted to contextualize this.

The vast majority of industries don't give you a top 1% of salary. Those that do require similar hours. Just wanted to contextualize this.

*Let the ok, boomer comments roll in*

Cool. On the other side of the coin, I have friends in PE and banking who laugh their assess off at how hard people in biglaw work for the relative amount of money they're making. So different strokes I guess.

Ask them how much they get paid in base salary vs. bonus. Then ask them when their bonuses actually vest/aren't clawed back. Then do a DCF on their compensation vs. yours.

Talking to finance folks about money is like talking to men about penis size.

Edit: Also, if we really want to have this discussion, PE/bank associates compensation is directly tied to how much money they bring in for their company whereas ours is mostly not (some of it is for above market bonuses based on hours). I'd love to be compensated based more on merit rather than what the lowest common denominator gets paid at a V100 (ie the scale), but I don't see anyone in here asking firms to move off the scale.

[Anonymous User]

Is that really life at DLA? in M&A / corporate?

So DLA pays market, your hours are 9-8 M-F? That sounds like an inhouse gig TBH

Working 55 hours a week consistently is not a good thing in the vast majority of industries outside of psycho biglaw. Just wanted to contextualize this.

The vast majority of industries don't give you a top 1% of salary. Those that do require similar hours. Just wanted to contextualize this.

*Let the ok, boomer comments roll in*

Cool. On the other side of the coin, I have friends in PE and banking who laugh their assess off at how hard people in biglaw work for the relative amount of money they're making. So different strokes I guess.

Ask them how much they get paid in base salary vs. bonus. Then ask them when their bonuses actually vest/aren't clawed back. Then do a DCF on their compensation vs. yours.

Talking to finance folks about money is like talking to men about penis size.

Don't forget that to get paid 215k starting as a big law associate you need to do the following things: (1) get a combination of good lsat score/good uGPA (with major or school mattering literally 0%). In my case I got into a t50 with a near 2.0 and a 170+. (2) Do well for 2 semesters, with "well" being a scale that declines heavily the better you did in step 1. Mine was get at least top 25%. Congrats. You're getting paid $215,000 a year, with very good raises and bonuses.

So when people talk about these other industries being paid more, I'm thinking...sorry you wasted your 4.0 and 175+ LSAT on law school. You're getting paid the same as people who failed out of undergrad multiple times because your intelligence and hard work isn't really valuable past a certain cutoff.

[Anonymous User]

Is that really life at DLA? in M&A / corporate?

So DLA pays market, your hours are 9-8 M-F? That sounds like an inhouse gig TBH

Working 55 hours a week consistently is not a good thing in the vast majority of industries outside of psycho biglaw. Just wanted to contextualize this.

The vast majority of industries don't give you a top 1% of salary. Those that do require similar hours. Just wanted to contextualize this.

*Let the ok, boomer comments roll in*

Cool. On the other side of the coin, I have friends in PE and banking who laugh their assess off at how hard people in biglaw work for the relative amount of money they're making. So different strokes I guess.

Ask them how much they get paid in base salary vs. bonus. Then ask them when their bonuses actually vest/aren't clawed back. Then do a DCF on their compensation vs. yours.

Talking to finance folks about money is like talking to men about penis size.

Edit: Also, if we really want to have this discussion, PE/bank associates compensation is directly tied to how much money they bring in for their company whereas ours is mostly not (some of it is for above market bonuses based on hours). I'd love to be compensated based more on merit rather than what the lowest common denominator gets paid at a V100 (ie the scale), but I don't see anyone in here asking firms to move off the scale.

They make more than us bro. It's okay, no need to get defensive about it. We're doing reasonably fine. Think of biglaw as the Cornell of career outcomes and come to peace with it.

[Anonymous User]

It should also be noted that DPW took its time to announce bonuses after Cravath did. 2 weeks from Nov 22 to DPW announcing on Dec 6.

Delay by design?

This was my same thought; don't get all the "what's going on" posts when we saw exactly this playbook less than two months ago. What's going on is DPW isn't in any rush, just like they weren't in a rush during bonus season. DPW and Milbank have become recognized as the de facto compensation leaders of the industry during COVID and neither of them feel compelled to rush when there's a comp. change happening. It'll happen eventually, either with another scale raise or a solidification on a DPW announcement.

Salary is a different beast though because it is biweekly. I don't know when DPW's next pay period is, but I imagine if they are going to raise, there is more pressure to get it into that pay period or the next versus bonuses, which some firms don't even pay until March.

DPW pays on the 15th and 30th. So I think tomorrow is the next payday (or Monday).

And to give an idea, DPW paid 2021 bonus out much later than they normally do. Probably because they announced it relatively late.

Yeah, so options are 1) announce pay raises today/tomorrow for the 30th's paycheck (unlikely given it takes some time to update these so they would have already had to start this process) or 2) Announce after the paycheck that it will be on the next paycheck.

I assume they are waiting until the next payment is complete to announce so as not to seem misleading that it is not coming until the 15th.

None of this guarantees a raise though.

[Anonymous User]

Is that really life at DLA? in M&A / corporate?

So DLA pays market, your hours are 9-8 M-F? That sounds like an inhouse gig TBH

Working 55 hours a week consistently is not a good thing in the vast majority of industries outside of psycho biglaw. Just wanted to contextualize this.

The vast majority of industries don't give you a top 1% of salary. Those that do require similar hours. Just wanted to contextualize this.

*Let the ok, boomer comments roll in*

Cool. On the other side of the coin, I have friends in PE and banking who laugh their assess off at how hard people in biglaw work for the relative amount of money they're making. So different strokes I guess.

Ask them how much they get paid in base salary vs. bonus. Then ask them when their bonuses actually vest/aren't clawed back. Then do a DCF on their compensation vs. yours.

Talking to finance folks about money is like talking to men about penis size.

Edit: Also, if we really want to have this discussion, PE/bank associates compensation is directly tied to how much money they bring in for their company whereas ours is mostly not (some of it is for above market bonuses based on hours). I'd love to be compensated based more on merit rather than what the lowest common denominator gets paid at a V100 (ie the scale), but I don't see anyone in here asking firms to move off the scale.

They make more than us bro. It's okay, no need to get defensive about it. We're doing reasonably fine. Think of biglaw as the Cornell of career outcomes and come to peace with it.

The poster above is right, though, recently their all-in CASH comp has either been the same, or lower; feel free to look at Citibank and Morgan Stanley numbers on WSO this year (Goldman Sachs, on the other hand, was higher) . And that's for top bracket. Also, P/E is pretty well-known as being worse for all in comp than bulge brackets are. You don't really seem to know much about either industry...come to peace with it.

[AureliusCapital]

On Fishbowl someone said DPW partners meet Thursdays at 1:15pm est.

[Anonymous User]

On Fishbowl someone said DPW partners meet Thursdays at 1:15pm est.

Can confirm DPW partners are all meeting right now. Am a midlevel who does 90% of my work for someone on the management committee.

[Anonymous User]

On Fishbowl someone said DPW partners meet Thursdays at 1:15pm est.

Can confirm DPW partners are all meeting right now. Am a midlevel who does 90% of my work for someone on the management committee.

People always talk about announcements after DPW/Cravath partner meetings. Has that actually held true?

I do know that they generally don't announce on Fridays, so if nothing in the next couple hours, looks like we're waiting until Monday.

[Anonymous User]

On Fishbowl someone said DPW partners meet Thursdays at 1:15pm est.

Can confirm DPW partners are all meeting right now. Am a midlevel who does 90% of my work for someone on the management committee.

People always talk about announcements after DPW/Cravath partner meetings. Has that actually held true?

I do know that they generally don't announce on Fridays, so if nothing in the next couple hours, looks like we're waiting until Monday.

DPW's raise over Milbank last summer was announced on a Friday. However, it was only a day or two after Milbank's announcement so that could change things.

[Silence553]

Have they ever announced late in the afternoon? I think it's likely Friday or Monday now.

[cornerstone]

I think your real issue is that you're taking seriously a person who unironically uses the phrase "non-elite"

Staci don't care: https://abovethelaw.com/2022/01/if-bigl ... ney-moves/

[ExpOriental]

I think your real issue is that you're taking seriously a person who unironically uses the phrase "non-elite"

Staci don't care: https://abovethelaw.com/2022/01/if-bigl ... ney-moves/

Truly elite analysis from ATL, as always

[Anonymous User]

Since we're still waiting on DPW, I'll ask something I'm curious about. Why does Milbank keep making this play? Is it literally about the Vault rankings? Why isn't another profitable-but-not-v10 firm making the same move?

[Anonymous User]

Since we're still waiting on DPW, I'll ask something I'm curious about. Why does Milbank keep making this play? Is it literally about the Vault rankings? Why isn't another profitable-but-not-v10 firm making the same move?

Yes vault rankings and general perception as "elite".

The others are not because Biglaw is an oligopoly. There's no incentive for the existing V10 firms to repeatedly make these moves since they're already at the top of the pack. They'll just fall in line with the market when a traditional market setter or a worthy enough maverick like Milbank decides to name a different price. The moves have done wonders for Milbank, which is now a household name in Biglaw circles.

[Anonymous User]

Since we're still waiting on DPW, I'll ask something I'm curious about. Why does Milbank keep making this play? Is it literally about the Vault rankings? Why isn't another profitable-but-not-v10 firm making the same move?

Yes vault rankings and general perception as "elite".

The others are not because Biglaw is an oligopoly. There's no incentive for the existing V10 firms to repeatedly make these moves since they're already at the top of the pack. They'll just fall in line with the market when a traditional market setter or a worthy enough maverick like Milbank decides to name a different price. The moves have done wonders for Milbank, which is now a household name in Biglaw circles.

Is it? Is Milbank getting better business, and better lawyers? Or is this just something that "very-online", and mostly junior, associates perceive?

[randomthrowaway]

Since we're still waiting on DPW, I'll ask something I'm curious about. Why does Milbank keep making this play? Is it literally about the Vault rankings? Why isn't another profitable-but-not-v10 firm making the same move?

Yes vault rankings and general perception as "elite".

The others are not because Biglaw is an oligopoly. There's no incentive for the existing V10 firms to repeatedly make these moves since they're already at the top of the pack. They'll just fall in line with the market when a traditional market setter or a worthy enough maverick like Milbank decides to name a different price. The moves have done wonders for Milbank, which is now a household name in Biglaw circles.

Is it? Is Milbank getting better business, and better lawyers? Or is this just something that "very-online", and mostly junior, associates perceive?

I can't speak to the better lawyers question, but their revenue and PPP has increased for eight years straight. Revenue increased from $855M in 2016 to $1.235B in 2021. PPP from $3.12M in 2016 to $4.492M in 2021.