Biglaw: Is it really that bad? Forum

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Re: Biglaw: Is it really that bad?

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:44 pm

The hyperbole in this thread is hilarious to read, like the 8 paragraph novella imploring the associate class to rise up against the partners who are the capital. Biglaw is a better job than most jobs. Period.

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Re: Biglaw: Is it really that bad?

Post by nixy » Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:50 pm

Such a BRAVE anon, who knows what everyone values.

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Re: Biglaw: Is it really that bad?

Post by jbagelboy » Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:36 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:44 pm
The hyperbole in this thread is hilarious to read, like the 8 paragraph novella imploring the associate class to rise up against the partners who are the capital. Biglaw is a better job than most jobs. Period.
Lol, no it’s definitely not. What possible basis could you have to make that claim

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Re: Biglaw: Is it really that bad?

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:09 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:36 am
Lol, no it’s definitely not. What possible basis could you have to make that claim
You get paid a shitton. That already beats out a lot of jobs that still require 40+ hours a week.

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Re: Biglaw: Is it really that bad?

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:09 pm
jbagelboy wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:36 am
Lol, no it’s definitely not. What possible basis could you have to make that claim
You get paid a shitton. That already beats out a lot of jobs that still require 40+ hours a week.
You also get to sit in nice airconditioned offices of your own with a door that closes, or work from home if you feel like it, and an assistant who will do the things you don't feel like doing for yourself.

I've done sales sitting in a cubicle on a floor with 80 people. it's a god damn maze getting to your spot and incredibly noisy.

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Re: Biglaw: Is it really that bad?

Post by Sackboy » Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:31 pm

Congrats, folks. There are jobs worse than biglaw. It does not mean that biglaw is a good job. No need for the good ol' hardship olympics here.

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Re: Biglaw: Is it really that bad?

Post by Buglaw » Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:46 pm

I don’t understand the people who say it’s better than most jobs. None of the evidence bears that out. It pays outrageous amounts of money and has ridiculously high attrition. If it was better than most jobs, why is it’s attrition so much higher. Most people don’t get fired, they leave voluntarily.

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Re: Biglaw: Is it really that bad?

Post by jotarokujo » Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:04 pm

Buglaw wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:46 pm
I don’t understand the people who say it’s better than most jobs. None of the evidence bears that out. It pays outrageous amounts of money and has ridiculously high attrition. If it was better than most jobs, why is it’s attrition so much higher. Most people don’t get fired, they leave voluntarily.
the hell kind of reasoning is that? that just means there are jobs that are better. that says nothing about biglaw being better or worse than most jobs

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Re: Biglaw: Is it really that bad?

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:39 pm

jotarokujo wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:04 pm
Buglaw wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:46 pm
I don’t understand the people who say it’s better than most jobs. None of the evidence bears that out. It pays outrageous amounts of money and has ridiculously high attrition. If it was better than most jobs, why is it’s attrition so much higher. Most people don’t get fired, they leave voluntarily.
the hell kind of reasoning is that? that just means there are jobs that are better. that says nothing about biglaw being better or worse than most jobs
It is more or less all the evidence you need to answer the question. Scores of people leave big law at an astonishing clip and never come back. Associates get paid a ton of money, and in exchange you sacrifice your hobbies, your vacations, your friendships, and your family, and even sometimes your life. Is it worth it? Most rational actors apparently don't think so.

Notably, the posters in this thread rushing to big law's defense are using precisely the same argument you are decrying, just the inverse, i.e. there are worse jobs out there, so stop complaining. But OP's question was not, "is big law the worst job?" It was, "Is it really that bad?" And the answer is yes.

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Re: Biglaw: Is it really that bad?

Post by jotarokujo » Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:25 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:39 pm
jotarokujo wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:04 pm
Buglaw wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:46 pm
I don’t understand the people who say it’s better than most jobs. None of the evidence bears that out. It pays outrageous amounts of money and has ridiculously high attrition. If it was better than most jobs, why is it’s attrition so much higher. Most people don’t get fired, they leave voluntarily.
the hell kind of reasoning is that? that just means there are jobs that are better. that says nothing about biglaw being better or worse than most jobs
It is more or less all the evidence you need to answer the question. Scores of people leave big law at an astonishing clip and never come back. Associates get paid a ton of money, and in exchange you sacrifice your hobbies, your vacations, your friendships, and your family, and even sometimes your life. Is it worth it? Most rational actors apparently don't think so.

Notably, the posters in this thread rushing to big law's defense are using precisely the same argument you are decrying, just the inverse, i.e. there are worse jobs out there, so stop complaining. But OP's question was not, "is big law the worst job?" It was, "Is it really that bad?" And the answer is yes.
it's not needed evidence because people are not mostly leaving to be unemployed. if that were the case, then yes that's pretty good evidence. they are mostly leaving for other jobs

and im not saying anything about "is it really that bad" i was just responding to the one person

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Re: Biglaw: Is it really that bad?

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:58 pm

Buglaw wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:46 pm
I don’t understand the people who say it’s better than most jobs. None of the evidence bears that out. It pays outrageous amounts of money and has ridiculously high attrition. If it was better than most jobs, why is it’s attrition so much higher. Most people don’t get fired, they leave voluntarily.
You cannot decouple the attrition from the pay. Paying off massive debt and/or working two years to establish a nest egg. Saving $150k from 2 years in BL that you then invest makes you a millionaire in retirement even if you do nothing else.

No one is saying that BL is a good long-term job. But sometimes things can be good jobs for what they are, which may be a short-term way to establish financial security.

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Re: Biglaw: Is it really that bad?

Post by Sackboy » Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:48 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:58 pm
Buglaw wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:46 pm
I don’t understand the people who say it’s better than most jobs. None of the evidence bears that out. It pays outrageous amounts of money and has ridiculously high attrition. If it was better than most jobs, why is it’s attrition so much higher. Most people don’t get fired, they leave voluntarily.
You cannot decouple the attrition from the pay. Paying off massive debt and/or working two years to establish a nest egg. Saving $150k from 2 years in BL that you then invest makes you a millionaire in retirement even if you do nothing else.

No one is saying that BL is a good long-term job. But sometimes things can be good jobs for what they are, which may be a short-term way to establish financial security.
That's an unrealistic savings for 90% of biglaw lawyers 2 years in. For a lot of people to get the upside you're talking about, it'd take 3-4 years in biglaw, which can be extremely unpleasant. Sticker at a T14 these days is like $350k.

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Re: Biglaw: Is it really that bad?

Post by randomthrowaway » Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:00 am

I don't understand people who say it's not better than most jobs. Y'all get paid $215k minimum to push paper. Do you really think that first or second years even know how to do anything? You're getting paid despite your inexperience and inability to do anything.

You aren't generating value, you're a tax on the entire system for every single company that pays for your bill. You work a lot. That's your value and that's what the money is for. If you want something more fulfilling, why are you in biglaw? Better yet, why did you go to law school?

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Re: Biglaw: Is it really that bad?

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:32 am

Sackboy wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:48 pm
That's an unrealistic savings for 90% of biglaw lawyers 2 years in. For a lot of people to get the upside you're talking about, it'd take 3-4 years in biglaw, which can be extremely unpleasant. Sticker at a T14 these days is like $350k.
Then expand the number of years accordingly. Your sticker price is ridiculous, since even CLS, the priciest, is *only* like $210-15k in tuition for three years. More broadly, BL still pays $$$. If you have jobs you think are preferable for people who are likely to go into law, feel free to post them. But I moved into BL from another career, and my regrets are zero for rather stereotypical/archetypal reasons, so I would rather you actually identify the greener pastures rather than pointing out relatively uncontroversial downsides to BL.

Debt source:
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Re: Biglaw: Is it really that bad?

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jan 24, 2022 2:36 am

After a few years in your bonuses are bigger than what most people in this country make in a whole year. Jobs generally suck - you coddled bunch going KJD in the most privileged institutions on earth just have zero perspective. Getting paid a shitton of money to sit in a fancy office with a fancy title that gives you respectability in society = really pretty damn good vs. what everybody else has.

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Re: Biglaw: Is it really that bad?

Post by nixy » Mon Jan 24, 2022 2:55 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:32 am
Sackboy wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:48 pm
That's an unrealistic savings for 90% of biglaw lawyers 2 years in. For a lot of people to get the upside you're talking about, it'd take 3-4 years in biglaw, which can be extremely unpleasant. Sticker at a T14 these days is like $350k.
Then expand the number of years accordingly. Your sticker price is ridiculous, since even CLS, the priciest, is *only* like $210-15k in tuition for three years. More broadly, BL still pays $$$. If you have jobs you think are preferable for people who are likely to go into law, feel free to post them. But I moved into BL from another career, and my regrets are zero for rather stereotypical/archetypal reasons, so I would rather you actually identify the greener pastures rather than pointing out relatively uncontroversial downsides to BL.

Debt source:
https://educationdata.org/average-law-s ... w%20school.
Last I checked, you still have to pay living expenses while in law school, and while you'd have to pay living expenses whether you went to law school or not, presumably if you're working, you're not taking out loans to pay them. Columbia's estimated cost of attendance for the 9-month academic year is $107,625. Average indebtedness isn't very helpful because it includes people who get free rides/whose families pay for school as well as people who borrow full freight. If you're in the former group, that's great! if you're in the latter, that $350k creeps up on you fast!

In any case, of course there are lots of great reasons to go into biglaw (mostly they're green and land in your bank account, but also various exit options). But people keep talking past each other about what's a "good" job and what's a "bad" job. For some people a job is good based entirely on the benefits it provides regardless of how miserable it is. For others, a job that makes your daily life miserable can't be a good job. It's great you have no regrets about biglaw, but I'm not sure the people saying it's terrible even have regrets about going into biglaw, out of the law jobs available (though they might regret picking law in the first place). Lots of people get out of it what they hope to - money and marketable experience. They can (and are entitled to) still hate actually doing it.

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Re: Biglaw: Is it really that bad?

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:17 am

I've been sporadically popping onto these forums for nearly a decade (from pre-JD to present) and I'm stunned at the sea change in perceptions. For as long as I can remember, the unequivocal motif of TLS was (1) don't go to law school because if you do you'll be stuck with crushing debt that can only be serviced by an intolerable big law job; or (2) if you go to law school, get your debt as close to $0 so you don't have to service the debt with an intolerable big law job.

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Re: Biglaw: Is it really that bad?

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:17 am

nixy wrote:
Mon Jan 24, 2022 2:55 am
In any case, of course there are lots of great reasons to go into biglaw (mostly they're green and land in your bank account, but also various exit options). But people keep talking past each other about what's a "good" job and what's a "bad" job. For some people a job is good based entirely on the benefits it provides regardless of how miserable it is. For others, a job that makes your daily life miserable can't be a good job. It's great you have no regrets about biglaw, but I'm not sure the people saying it's terrible even have regrets about going into biglaw, out of the law jobs available (though they might regret picking law in the first place). Lots of people get out of it what they hope to - money and marketable experience. They can (and are entitled to) still hate actually doing it.
If people do a job and have few/no regrets about doing the job despite hate actually doing it, the job still must provide utility.

While we can discuss the day-to-day substance in isolation, that is not realistically the totality of people's considerations. Compensation is the big missing factor, and labeling a job "good" or "bad" without consideration of pay is bizarre.

People can feel whatever they want. But complaining incessantly about BL comes across as whiny when not accompanied by an actual plan for a better job (or specific regrets about avenues not chosen).

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Re: Biglaw: Is it really that bad?

Post by nixy » Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:33 am

Who isn’t considering pay? Pretty sure everyone in biglaw is considering pay.

And a job that provides utility can still be a terrible job to experience. But no one has said that there’s no utility to a biglaw job.

Lots of people who have been complaining about biglaw have specific plans to exit (particularly in-house). Not sure who you’re talking about being whiny without an actual plan for a better job. I don’t think I’ve seen anyone who says “this job is terrible and I hate it and no one should do it and I’m going to try to do it forever.”

(And for people who don’t hate biglaw and think it’s all eminently worthwhile: that’s great! Good for you!)
Last edited by nixy on Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Biglaw: Is it really that bad?

Post by Buglaw » Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:38 am

jotarokujo wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:04 pm
Buglaw wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:46 pm
I don’t understand the people who say it’s better than most jobs. None of the evidence bears that out. It pays outrageous amounts of money and has ridiculously high attrition. If it was better than most jobs, why is it’s attrition so much higher. Most people don’t get fired, they leave voluntarily.
the hell kind of reasoning is that? that just means there are jobs that are better. that says nothing about biglaw being better or worse than most jobs
I mean, bad only means something in comparison, right? So if people are leaving it in droves for other better jobs, doesn't that make it "bad"? I don't understand how people fleeing it for other jobs, you admitting those jobs are better, doesn't make big law worse than other jobs?

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Re: Biglaw: Is it really that bad?

Post by bruinfan10 » Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:25 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:17 am
I've been sporadically popping onto these forums for nearly a decade (from pre-JD to present) and I'm stunned at the sea change in perceptions. For as long as I can remember, the unequivocal motif of TLS was (1) don't go to law school because if you do you'll be stuck with crushing debt that can only be serviced by an intolerable big law job; or (2) if you go to law school, get your debt as close to $0 so you don't have to service the debt with an intolerable big law job.
Same. All you can conclude is that people get dumber every year.

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Re: Biglaw: Is it really that bad?

Post by glitched » Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:52 pm

If you're type A, need to be perfect, and need to make people happy (like most people who decide to go to law school), this job is going to suck real bad. If you don't care about any of those things, this job is fine and it pays a lot more money than mostly anything.

So in short, this job is really bad for some and not all that bad for others.

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Re: Biglaw: Is it really that bad?

Post by Monochromatic Oeuvre » Mon Jan 24, 2022 2:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:17 am
I've been sporadically popping onto these forums for nearly a decade (from pre-JD to present) and I'm stunned at the sea change in perceptions. For as long as I can remember, the unequivocal motif of TLS was (1) don't go to law school because if you do you'll be stuck with crushing debt that can only be serviced by an intolerable big law job; or (2) if you go to law school, get your debt as close to $0 so you don't have to service the debt with an intolerable big law job.
I read my first TLS post in 2009. To be fair, Biglaw itself probably *did* become a better proposition compared to a decade ago in terms of hiring rates, remote work, and of course pay increases. That said, the motif you identified is still applicable. Maybe any perceived shift away from that comes from (A) people who are unfamiliar with what the last recession was like and how shitty the prospects can get and (B) a shift away to Reddit/other social media that are not nearly as pessimistic (bad news for the kids who will rely on some of that optimism and get burned).

At some point (I don't know when or else I'd be a millionaire investor) the bottom will fall out again and horror stories will come back. Enrollment has already spiked, so it would be a rough time for hiring to dry up (and if the broader economy struggles, that will drive up enrollment that much more). So probably ebbs and flows forever.

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Re: Biglaw: Is it really that bad?

Post by Sackboy » Mon Jan 24, 2022 3:22 pm

glitched wrote:
Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:52 pm
If you're type A, need to be perfect, and need to make people happy (like most people who decide to go to law school), this job is going to suck real bad. If you don't care about any of those things, this job is fine and it pays a lot more money than mostly anything.

So in short, this job is really bad for some and not all that bad for others.
Except if you're loosey goosey you need to enjoy spending a significant number of your waking hours around neurotic type A people who somehow don't burn out churning insane hours.

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Re: Biglaw: Is it really that bad?

Post by Buglaw » Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:13 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
Mon Jan 24, 2022 2:45 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:17 am
I've been sporadically popping onto these forums for nearly a decade (from pre-JD to present) and I'm stunned at the sea change in perceptions. For as long as I can remember, the unequivocal motif of TLS was (1) don't go to law school because if you do you'll be stuck with crushing debt that can only be serviced by an intolerable big law job; or (2) if you go to law school, get your debt as close to $0 so you don't have to service the debt with an intolerable big law job.
I read my first TLS post in 2009. To be fair, Biglaw itself probably *did* become a better proposition compared to a decade ago in terms of hiring rates, remote work, and of course pay increases. That said, the motif you identified is still applicable. Maybe any perceived shift away from that comes from (A) people who are unfamiliar with what the last recession was like and how shitty the prospects can get and (B) a shift away to Reddit/other social media that are not nearly as pessimistic (bad news for the kids who will rely on some of that optimism and get burned).

At some point (I don't know when or else I'd be a millionaire investor) the bottom will fall out again and horror stories will come back. Enrollment has already spiked, so it would be a rough time for hiring to dry up (and if the broader economy struggles, that will drive up enrollment that much more). So probably ebbs and flows forever.
Me three on timing. I will point out that 2008 was the worst recession since the Great Depression, so we’re more likely to have something milder. Our first recession was super mild, so probably something g worse than that. None of that makes big law a good job, though.

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