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Not sure if this is just burnout or a legitimate gripe, but I feel like the junior associates at my firm are pretty useless. I'm a midlevel at a big law shop in Texas and the situation is leading me evaluate lateraling. I do PE/M&A work exclusively.

The issue with the juniors is we have no third years, which in turn would be teaching the first/second years. Our first and second years are good people and eager to help out, but they extremely weak practice-wise and substantively. The 2-3 competent juniors we have out of a sizable class are staffed to the gill and nearly impossible to get a hold of.

I get the sense the firm doesn't want to lose me or have me lateral off somewhere else, as my reviews have always been very positive and, when I expressed these concerns at my annual review, the partners stated as much. While I genuinely like and respect everyone in my office and feel like I have grown tremendously where I am, I'm concerned that the lack of junior assistance (meaning, me needing to pick up the slack in that area) means I'm never going to be able to fully develop the skills I need to one day get a shot at partner, ever be an effective GC or suitable for some other role wherever my career takes me.

Is it different at any other shop, or is anyone else running into the same issue -- or am I just burned out and griping about an issue all midlevels deal with? I don't want to leave my office, but I can't do the job of 2-3 associates on every deal and ever do anything other than just barely survive. The past several months has been choosing which partner to piss off the most due to competing and overlapping deadlines/demands and an inability to delegate work down and get suitable work product back. I'm also generally dissatisfied to still be doing signature page packets, closing checklists, structure slides, basic ancillaries, etc. not because of the timing demands of the deals but because of how poor the work quality is that I'm getting back from the juniors.

Before my managerial skills are impugned (which, maybe they ought to be, I don't know), I know the partners are running into the same issues. I feel that the only thing that rehabilitated me in the eyes of the partners these past few months was copying them into the correspondence with the juniors so they could see the work product I'm getting back, the level of heavily detailed comments I have to provide and the consistent misses on the same comments that have been made several times. Once they saw what I was dealing with, they started cutting me a little more slack.

If anyone has thoughts on DPW scale transactional practices in the Houston market that might have a better junior pool and are in need of midlevels, I would be interested to learn more.

I've certainly felt like I experienced this.

I think it is both a combination of (a) simply becoming a jaded/burned out midlevel who sometimes forgets how steep the learning curve is/how many mistakes you made as a junior, (b) the pandemic and WFH specifically creating a terrible environment for training juniors (cue the army of TLS first years telling me I'm wrong) and (c) the hot market and increasing distance from the financial crisis creating more perceived (and actual) leverage/willingness to push back.

(c) I am definitely sympathetic to, and maybe these juniors are just winning the biglaw game, but I tend to agree with you that it punishes the midlevels/senior associates far more than partners. People will say, and they're not necessarily wrong, that it's on the midlevels to push back as well against partners/timelines, but that's simply far more difficult to do when you're in a position where it's simply expected that you'll get deals across the finish line vs. merely being expected to complete discrete tasks along the way.

I honestly think this is an issue with a lot of juniors who started mid-pandemic.

They're not able to see what you, the partners and others at their class level are doing and how they operate, and sometimes the work suffers as a result. They're not able to see as clearly how they might be screwing you over, for one. Training them can also be pretty difficult remotely.

Other firms in your area are likely suffering from a similar problem. It's hard to say if it's better elsewhere, honestly... you can tell how many juniors a firm has but not if they're good or not.

existentialcrisis wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 04, 2022 3:46 pm

I've certainly felt like I experienced this.

I think it is both a combination of (a) simply becoming a jaded/burned out midlevel who sometimes forgets how steep the learning curve is/how many mistakes you made as a junior, (b) the pandemic and WFH specifically creating a terrible environment for training juniors (cue the army of TLS first years telling me I'm wrong) and (c) the hot market and increasing distance from the financial crisis creating more perceived (and actual) leverage/willingness to push back.

(c) I am definitely sympathetic to, and maybe these juniors are just winning the biglaw game, but I tend to agree with you that it punishes the midlevels/senior associates far more than partners. People will say, and they're not necessarily wrong, that it's on the midlevels to push back as well against partners/timelines, but that's simply far more difficult to do when you're in a position where it's simply expected that you'll get deals across the finish line vs. merely being expected to complete discrete tasks along the way.

I think (a) and (c) are the biggest culprits. At least as a mid-level in lit who has "trained" juniors both in person and remotely, I'm not totally persuaded that WFH has made a terrible environment for training. I'm not sure what conversations/trainings can only be done effectively in the same physical space. At most it might make the juniors feel like they need to pay less attention (mid-level is just a face on a screen), but then that feels more generally like (c) in that juniors generally seem less fearful of pushing back, being late on deadlines, etc. I'm ready to be persuaded otherwise, but I think this borders on boomer mythology.

existentialcrisis wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 04, 2022 3:46 pm

I've certainly felt like I experienced this.

I think it is both a combination of ... (b) the pandemic and WFH specifically creating a terrible environment for training juniors (cue the army of TLS first years telling me I'm wrong)

You're wrong. See above post.

If this is KE Houston, yes, it's a legitimate gripe. The juniors here are awful. I say this as an awful junior.

We're not paid as well as many smaller players to work more on average.

Anyone who's perceived as vaguely competent is immediately chewed up and spit out. There are a couple NSPs with huge clients who are known for demanding even post-closing items on insane timelines.

All our mentors leave (the best people here leave as they should because they deserve better).

We basically sit around watching people from firms like Locke Lord get paid signing bonuses to come here, ramp up, take a vacation, and lateral out.

If we stay here for long enough, we're rewarded with higher hours and a pay cut as NSP.

There's literally not a single reason to try...

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:20 pm

existentialcrisis wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 04, 2022 3:46 pm

I've certainly felt like I experienced this.

I think it is both a combination of (a) simply becoming a jaded/burned out midlevel who sometimes forgets how steep the learning curve is/how many mistakes you made as a junior, (b) the pandemic and WFH specifically creating a terrible environment for training juniors (cue the army of TLS first years telling me I'm wrong) and (c) the hot market and increasing distance from the financial crisis creating more perceived (and actual) leverage/willingness to push back.

(c) I am definitely sympathetic to, and maybe these juniors are just winning the biglaw game, but I tend to agree with you that it punishes the midlevels/senior associates far more than partners. People will say, and they're not necessarily wrong, that it's on the midlevels to push back as well against partners/timelines, but that's simply far more difficult to do when you're in a position where it's simply expected that you'll get deals across the finish line vs. merely being expected to complete discrete tasks along the way.

I think (a) and (c) are the biggest culprits. At least as a mid-level in lit who has "trained" juniors both in person and remotely, I'm not totally persuaded that WFH has made a terrible environment for training. I'm not sure what conversations/trainings can only be done effectively in the same physical space. At most it might make the juniors feel like they need to pay less attention (mid-level is just a face on a screen), but then that feels more generally like (c) in that juniors generally seem less fearful of pushing back, being late on deadlines, etc. I'm ready to be persuaded otherwise, but I think this borders on boomer mythology.

I strongly suspect this is quite different between litigation and transactional work.

It definitely feels to me like juniors are indeed worse since 2019, but what I wonder about is how much of this can be attributed to me now being a sixth year and evaluating the work of a first year as opposed to being a fourth year and evaluating a first year.

I’m a mid level in a transactional practice. For what it’s worth, I’m experiencing the same thing and it’s making me want to quit my firm because the partners do nothing to control it. Juniors leaving me in the lurch before urgent deadlines, blowing deadlines, sloppy work, leaving for vacation without getting coverage, punting anything that requires a second’s thought. It might just be that I’m looking at it from a different lens but I really think my peers and I were more mindful of making a bad impression when we were first/second years. If anyone has tips on how to deal with this I’m all ears.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 04, 2022 11:19 pm

I’m a mid level in a transactional practice. For what it’s worth, I’m experiencing the same thing and it’s making me want to quit my firm because the partners do nothing to control it. Juniors leaving me in the lurch before urgent deadlines, blowing deadlines, sloppy work, leaving for vacation without getting coverage, punting anything that requires a second’s thought. It might just be that I’m looking at it from a different lens but I really think my peers and I were more mindful of making a bad impression when we were first/second years. If anyone has tips on how to deal with this I’m all ears.

This is the OP anon. This is the exact experience I’m having. I’ve had an insane amount of associate turnover on my transactions. Apparently, juniors have free reign to declare they’re on vacation without pushback, including around Xmas, Thanksgiving, New Years, etc.. If this is the deal everywhere, maybe the play is just to go in house for a few years.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 04, 2022 11:19 pm

I’m a mid level in a transactional practice. For what it’s worth, I’m experiencing the same thing and it’s making me want to quit my firm because the partners do nothing to control it. Juniors leaving me in the lurch before urgent deadlines, blowing deadlines, sloppy work, leaving for vacation without getting coverage, punting anything that requires a second’s thought. It might just be that I’m looking at it from a different lens but I really think my peers and I were more mindful of making a bad impression when we were first/second years. If anyone has tips on how to deal with this I’m all ears.

Same here, don't know how to remedy it. I just had 3 juniors go out for the holidays with a large closing happening during that time period. Had to find my own coverage and the deal still got done so I guess they win?

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:24 pm

We're not paid as well as many smaller players to work more on average.

Huh? What smaller players pay more and require less work than KE?

My two cents: juniors don’t know that they have to pay their dues and earn the trust/respect/opportunities. You get paid a ton out of LS with zero skills other than availability and ability to work hard even without knowing much. They skipped the part where they go through the trenches and utilize those skills, develop more, and can then start to be pickier and so forth.

Please don't hate on juniors if you made different life decisions as a junior. Some people value time with family and friends more than a good reputation at a firm where they are just a transitory cog in a machine churning money for partners.

Also, this whole notion of the individual finding coverage for when they want to take a vacation is bogus. Its just a way to guilt people into never taking vacation. Take your vacation time whenever. Its the firms responsibility to find coverage.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 06, 2022 7:44 pm

My two cents: juniors don’t know that they have to pay their dues and earn the trust/respect/opportunities. You get paid a ton out of LS with zero skills other than availability and ability to work hard even without knowing much. They skipped the part where they go through the trenches and utilize those skills, develop more, and can then start to be pickier and so forth.

Do they though? In the current market they aren't getting fired, and can lateral easily, likely with bonus.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 06, 2022 7:52 pm

Please don't hate on juniors if you made different life decisions as a junior. Some people value time with family and friends more than a good reputation at a firm where they are just a transitory cog in a machine churning money for partners.

Also, this whole notion of the individual finding coverage for when they want to take a vacation is bogus. Its just a way to guilt people into never taking vacation. Take your vacation time whenever. Its the firms responsibility to find coverage.

All of this rings true even after you go in-house. At the last gig, manager wanted his reports to designate who would be their back-up. Um, actually, manager, why don't you do that, and you know, manage?

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 05, 2022 10:22 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 04, 2022 11:19 pm

I’m a mid level in a transactional practice. For what it’s worth, I’m experiencing the same thing and it’s making me want to quit my firm because the partners do nothing to control it. Juniors leaving me in the lurch before urgent deadlines, blowing deadlines, sloppy work, leaving for vacation without getting coverage, punting anything that requires a second’s thought. It might just be that I’m looking at it from a different lens but I really think my peers and I were more mindful of making a bad impression when we were first/second years. If anyone has tips on how to deal with this I’m all ears.

Same here, don't know how to remedy it. I just had 3 juniors go out for the holidays with a large closing happening during that time period. Had to find my own coverage and the deal still got done so I guess they win?

As a couple others have said, while there may be truth to the other points, it is not the juniors responsibility to manage coverage for vacation. Yes they should give appropriate heads up but this kind of mindset makes it very hard to take a vacation ever. In my experience there is almost always a big transaction going on that a particular partner cares a lot about and in order to plan a vacation months in advance, a person (whether they are juniors or seniors) need to be able lock in certain details. If that doesn't work, the remedy is to talk to the partner and make sure there is X number of associates who can assist with a transaction if it's closing around a certain holiday or known vacation time (e.g. new years), or just get the partner to assign coverage, which is their job.

Lawman1865 wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:11 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 05, 2022 10:22 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 04, 2022 11:19 pm

I’m a mid level in a transactional practice. For what it’s worth, I’m experiencing the same thing and it’s making me want to quit my firm because the partners do nothing to control it. Juniors leaving me in the lurch before urgent deadlines, blowing deadlines, sloppy work, leaving for vacation without getting coverage, punting anything that requires a second’s thought. It might just be that I’m looking at it from a different lens but I really think my peers and I were more mindful of making a bad impression when we were first/second years. If anyone has tips on how to deal with this I’m all ears.

Same here, don't know how to remedy it. I just had 3 juniors go out for the holidays with a large closing happening during that time period. Had to find my own coverage and the deal still got done so I guess they win?

As a couple others have said, while there may be truth to the other points, it is not the juniors responsibility to manage coverage for vacation. Yes they should give appropriate heads up but this kind of mindset makes it very hard to take a vacation ever. In my experience there is almost always a big transaction going on that a particular partner cares a lot about and in order to plan a vacation months in advance, a person (whether they are juniors or seniors) need to be able lock in certain details. If that doesn't work, the remedy is to talk to the partner and make sure there is X number of associates who can assist with a transaction if it's closing around a certain holiday or known vacation time (e.g. new years), or just get the partner to assign coverage, which is their job.

Quoted poster here. At my firm all the juniors are asked to do is to actively reach out to the assigning partner to have them assign coverage, and that is not being done. People just hide until they go on vacation and put their away messages on.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 06, 2022 7:52 pm

Please don't hate on juniors if you made different life decisions as a junior. Some people value time with family and friends more than a good reputation at a firm where they are just a transitory cog in a machine churning money for partners.

Also, this whole notion of the individual finding coverage for when they want to take a vacation is bogus. Its just a way to guilt people into never taking vacation. Take your vacation time whenever. Its the firms responsibility to find coverage.

Everyone likes time with family and friends. You can have integrity, do reasonably passable work, and not be a parasite on other people, while still seeing your family and friends.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:23 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 06, 2022 7:52 pm

Please don't hate on juniors if you made different life decisions as a junior. Some people value time with family and friends more than a good reputation at a firm where they are just a transitory cog in a machine churning money for partners.

Also, this whole notion of the individual finding coverage for when they want to take a vacation is bogus. Its just a way to guilt people into never taking vacation. Take your vacation time whenever. Its the firms responsibility to find coverage.

Everyone likes time with family and friends. You can have integrity, do reasonably passable work, and not be a parasite on other people, while still seeing your family and friends.

I think you misunderstand. Juniors are learning. I imagine you've forgotten the stress of learning a completely new subject/practice area. The idea that juniors cannot take vacation because they have to "pay their dues," or that they must "have integrity" and somehow come crawling up to senior associates to take vacation time over the holidays is misplaced.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:23 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 06, 2022 7:52 pm

Please don't hate on juniors if you made different life decisions as a junior. Some people value time with family and friends more than a good reputation at a firm where they are just a transitory cog in a machine churning money for partners.

Also, this whole notion of the individual finding coverage for when they want to take a vacation is bogus. Its just a way to guilt people into never taking vacation. Take your vacation time whenever. Its the firms responsibility to find coverage.

Everyone likes time with family and friends. You can have integrity, do reasonably passable work, and not be a parasite on other people, while still seeing your family and friends.

I think you misunderstand. Juniors are learning. I imagine you've forgotten the stress of learning a completely new subject/practice area. The idea that juniors cannot take vacation because they have to "pay their dues," or that they must "have integrity" and somehow come crawling up to senior associates to take vacation time over the holidays is misplaced.

Lol who is saying that. Just tell your teams you’re going on vacation (during the week of a deSPAC closing) so coverage can be arranged. That’s it. You don’t have to beg, just be a decent human being.

I'm a burnt out midlevel. I don't blame any junior for taking vacation and treating this like a normal job, especially during the holidays. When I was a junior, even just a few years ago, senior associates and partners told me with straight faces that juniors were expected to pay their dues and shovel shit (i.e. work the most out of anyone and always say "yes will do"). On a late evening before Thanksgiving a partner told me I wasn't allowed to leave the office until he did because that's what he was told when he was a junior. I'm not sociopathic or bitter enough where I feel like I need to treat juniors the same way I was treated. Being on call 24/7, not seeing family and friends, cancelling vacations, is not normal and is not healthy.

But all that being said, the whole model is broken and mid-levels and senior associates are currently getting the worst of it. The partners are still saying yes to every deal/case. Meanwhile juniors (rightfully) are treating this more like a normal job and have recognized that they are currently in a position of power given how desperate firms are for bodies. Consequently, mid-levels/seniors are getting pressure from the bottom and the top: from the bottom because juniors aren't good at their jobs yet and are not willing to be in the trenches 24/7, and from the top because partners are saying yes to more work and telling mid-levels/seniors to manage the work.

In effect, 100% of the responsibility seems to fall to the mid-levels/senior associates to push back on everyone and fix the model. But if you've lasted 5+ years in big law, chances are you are the kind of person who feels an ethical obligation to get the work done and do a good job.

The whole thing is warped.

My 2 cents.

LOL at raging impotent seniors angry that they have neither the power of the partners nor the courage of the juniors to take any level of control over their life.

There are plenty of good juniors out there as there always were. So either (A) your group doesn't have them or (B) no one respects your requests to staff the good ones (I'm betting B). In either case, ask yourself why that is.

By the way, if you use the search function, you'll find people complaining for a solid decade-plus about how this year's crop of juniors really is the worst of all time, it really is, WTF is wrong with the kids these days.

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 07, 2022 11:07 am

LOL at raging impotent seniors angry that they have neither the power of the partners nor the courage of the juniors to take any level of control over their life.

There are plenty of good juniors out there as there always were. So either (A) your group doesn't have them or (B) no one respects your requests to staff the good ones (I'm betting B). In either case, ask yourself why that is.

By the way, if you use the search function, you'll find people complaining for a solid decade-plus about how this year's crop of juniors really is the worst of all time, it really is, WTF is wrong with the kids these days.

I'm the 2 cents anon above, not sure if this was directed at me. If so, I absolutely push back whenever I feel like I can get away with it and have increasingly told partners that I have no bandwidth or that I'm taking legitimate time off. I also never said there weren't any "good" juniors. I think the suggestion that recent juniors are somehow worse than others in terms of work quality is simply wrong (and I've stated elsewhere it's much more about people forgetting that juniors have never done this before and big law training is generally terrible/learn by doing). But I do also genuinely believe juniors now are more willing to push back than in years past. And I repeatedly said I thought that was commendable.

At least for my part, a big problem is that my firm just doesn't have a lot of juniors. period. All the teams I'm on are incredibly leanly staffed, and when I ask for for more staffing and partners oblige, it is the same junior who has just been staffed on 2-3 other matters in response to similar requests.

Like I said, partners keep saying yes to more cases/deals, and I think they still feel like it is the bygone days where there were armies of associates ready to bill and churn out work product. That just isn't true anymore.