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At HYS. Our career services team has been really bullish on people going for 1L fellowships, even if they aren't classically diverse. In a meeting I had with one of them, they talked about how someone being from Kansas had been sufficiently diverse in the past.

Is this a load of drivel? I normally would go with what they say, but looking at posts on here it seems like the TLS standard response is that you need to be actually diverse to have a shot at these roles. I'm not "classically" diverse (generic straight white male #237,333) but I'm from a less-populated state than Kansas and I have significant experience living + working on reservations (and have continued native-oriented work in law school). Trying to figure out if I'd be wasting my time by applying to these roles or not.

Anon because post history + this post would make me easily identifiable.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 14, 2021 3:11 pm

At HYS. Our career services team has been really bullish on people going for 1L fellowships, even if they aren't classically diverse. In a meeting I had with one of them, they talked about how someone being from Kansas had been sufficiently diverse in the past.

Is this a load of drivel? I normally would go with what they say, but looking at posts on here it seems like the TLS standard response is that you need to be actually diverse to have a shot at these roles. I'm not "classically" diverse (generic straight white male #237,333) but I'm from a less-populated state than Kansas and I have significant experience living + working on reservations (and have continued native-oriented work in law school). Trying to figure out if I'd be wasting my time by applying to these roles or not.

Anon because post history + this post would make me easily identifiable.

Asian male. Was 1L Scholar at V10. That being said, straight white male may not qualify.

I hesitate to say you should apply, but my general rule of thumb is that if you don't think you qualify at first guess, then it's probably better to not apply. I know this might be more naive of me to say, but the purpose of these are to help with the underrepresentation in the law and at these firms. While some firms definitely have a history of hiring 'generic straight white males from Kansas' ultimately are you ok with that? No judgement here, do what you gotta do! But also, there are firms that have 1L spots that aren't geared towards diverse candidates, particularly TX firms but there are others, and if you're at HYS I think you have a good shot at getting those if you have ties/network.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 14, 2021 3:37 pm

I hesitate to say you should apply, but my general rule of thumb is that if you don't think you qualify at first guess, then it's probably better to not apply.

See my original read was that, except for the firms that explicitly say they're looking for LGBTQ+/Minority applicants I fit the diversity box pretty well (which was also what OCS indicated). It was only after I looked up some stuff on here while drafting cover letters that the question came up.

As for the morality part... eh? On the one hand it crossed my mind, but on the other hand the firms can just say no if they're looking for more traditional metrics.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 14, 2021 3:11 pm

At HYS. Our career services team has been really bullish on people going for 1L fellowships, even if they aren't classically diverse. In a meeting I had with one of them, they talked about how someone being from Kansas had been sufficiently diverse in the past.

Is this a load of drivel? I normally would go with what they say, but looking at posts on here it seems like the TLS standard response is that you need to be actually diverse to have a shot at these roles. I'm not "classically" diverse (generic straight white male #237,333) but I'm from a less-populated state than Kansas and I have significant experience living + working on reservations (and have continued native-oriented work in law school). Trying to figure out if I'd be wasting my time by applying to these roles or not.

Anon because post history + this post would make me easily identifiable.

Apply for it and let them decide if they want to hire you or not. A fair number of firms contact people they were impressed with during 1L recruiting but couldn't offer spots to for early hiring during the summer anyway.

No one cares what state you're from. The view from ninth ave of the rest of the US doesn't make these distinctions.

Straight Asian male that had a 1L diversity SA. It's really about how you craft your narrative - talk about your involvement with reservations and native-oriented work and see what happens. These applications are somewhat similar enough that one good personal statement should be enough to tweak and send out to plenty of openings. If you don't get any bites, then you move on.

I'll just say, if you saw the room of finalists that came to interview for the 1L SA I did, you would have thought I had zero chance. Like seriously, zero. But one interviewer pointed out that he really appreciated my PS, so don't underestimate its importance!

Not sure how “straight Asian male” examples are supposed to help this straight white male. Asian falls under diverse for almost all of these applications.

To OP, I knew a straight white male who applied to a diversity fellowship and got it. I don’t know exactly how or why (he grew up poorish, so maybe economic diversity), but as someone above said, let the firm decide if you’re diverse or not. Only time I wouldn’t apply is if it requires more than a cover letter (e.g., an essay).

Straight white dude asks if he is diverse because he is from a rural state. Love to see it.

Dude, you are at HYS. Apply for 1L SA positions in Texas like a normal person. You’ll get something.

blair.waldorf wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:23 pm

Straight white dude asks if he is diverse because he is from a rural state. Love to see it.

Dude, you are at HYS. Apply for 1L SA positions in Texas like a normal person. You’ll get something.

Lol this is the likeliest path. Texas 1L positions are usually just that - summer associate positions and nothing more/less. With decent grades, you have a good chance.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 14, 2021 9:18 pm

Straight Asian male that had a 1L diversity SA. It's really about how you craft your narrative - talk about your involvement with reservations and native-oriented work and see what happens. These applications are somewhat similar enough that one good personal statement should be enough to tweak and send out to plenty of openings. If you don't get any bites, then you move on.

I'll just say, if you saw the room of finalists that came to interview for the 1L SA I did, you would have thought I had zero chance. Like seriously, zero. But one interviewer pointed out that he really appreciated my PS, so don't underestimate its importance!

Yeah, this is what I'm going with. Anything that seems explicitly focused on race/sexuality etc I'm skipping but if they're talking hyper-generic diversity I don't see why not?

blair.waldorf wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:23 pm

Straight white dude asks if he is diverse because he is from a rural state. Love to see it.

Dude, you are at HYS. Apply for 1L SA positions in Texas like a normal person. You’ll get something.

A) asks if he's diverse because of living + working on a rez. Pretty different from a rural state.

B) Texas is too damn flat.

As a black male, please don’t apply. You will have plenty of doors open throughout your life. You don’t need to potentially close this one for someone else.

Lacepiece23 wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:52 am

As a black male, please don’t apply. You will have plenty of doors open throughout your life. You don’t need to potentially close this one for someone else.

Literally every single black person in my school got a 1L SA, OP applying doesn't take it away from them.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 15, 2021 9:21 am

Lacepiece23 wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:52 am

As a black male, please don’t apply. You will have plenty of doors open throughout your life. You don’t need to potentially close this one for someone else.

Literally every single black person in my school got a 1L SA, OP applying doesn't take it away from them.

Nice anon and bad logic. I’m sure that 1L positions are open to more than just black 1Ls at your school.

And I’m also sure that every single eligible black law student that applied did not obtain a position.

Everyone knows that these positions are meant to rectify diversity problems, which are a vestige of past and continuing racism in this country.

There is nothing wrong with just letting an opportunity go because it’s the right thing to do.

Lacepiece23 wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 15, 2021 10:02 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 15, 2021 9:21 am

Lacepiece23 wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:52 am

As a black male, please don’t apply. You will have plenty of doors open throughout your life. You don’t need to potentially close this one for someone else.

Literally every single black person in my school got a 1L SA, OP applying doesn't take it away from them.

Nice anon and bad logic. I’m sure that 1L positions are open to more than just black 1Ls at your school.

And I’m also sure that every single eligible black law student that applied did not obtain a position.

Everyone knows that these positions are meant to rectify diversity problems, which are a vestige of past and continuing racism in this country.

There is nothing wrong with just letting an opportunity go because it’s the right thing to do.

1L SA aside, I think you're severely understating how advantageous it is to be "diverse" in middle/upper class America these days

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 15, 2021 10:24 am

Lacepiece23 wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 15, 2021 10:02 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 15, 2021 9:21 am

Lacepiece23 wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:52 am

As a black male, please don’t apply. You will have plenty of doors open throughout your life. You don’t need to potentially close this one for someone else.

Literally every single black person in my school got a 1L SA, OP applying doesn't take it away from them.

Nice anon and bad logic. I’m sure that 1L positions are open to more than just black 1Ls at your school.

And I’m also sure that every single eligible black law student that applied did not obtain a position.

Everyone knows that these positions are meant to rectify diversity problems, which are a vestige of past and continuing racism in this country.

There is nothing wrong with just letting an opportunity go because it’s the right thing to do.

1L SA aside, I think you're severely understating how advantageous it is to be "diverse" in middle/upper class America these days

God the anon abuse in this place is insane, and this is a terrible, terrible take that could only be offered by a clueless white person.

To answer the question presented, diverse for these programs generally means a racial, sexual, religious, or gender minority of some kind.

That said, as a minority myself, I think that if you think that your background provides some kind of unique perspective that would fulfill the aims of a diversity program, you should apply, even if you wouldn't call yourself diverse on a survey. The program isn't about checking census boxes, it's about giving the firm resources that will allow it to, for instance, better sympathize with clients or provide boardroom perspectives that will suggest unusual and ultimately profitable approaches.

If you feel sincerely that you have a voice that will add something to the status quo, and the application doesn't explicitly forbid it, apply. It is natural that anyone competing with you for these spots would discourage you from applying. Ultimately, it's about the firm's bottom line, so let them decide if they view your voice as especially valuable.

Don't apply to this. It is incredibly poor form and you are not the intended audience. Associating with disadvantaged people does not make you disadvantaged yourself. Please understand that.

nixy wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 15, 2021 10:35 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 15, 2021 10:24 am

Lacepiece23 wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 15, 2021 10:02 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 15, 2021 9:21 am

Lacepiece23 wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:52 am

As a black male, please don’t apply. You will have plenty of doors open throughout your life. You don’t need to potentially close this one for someone else.

Literally every single black person in my school got a 1L SA, OP applying doesn't take it away from them.

Nice anon and bad logic. I’m sure that 1L positions are open to more than just black 1Ls at your school.

And I’m also sure that every single eligible black law student that applied did not obtain a position.

Everyone knows that these positions are meant to rectify diversity problems, which are a vestige of past and continuing racism in this country.

There is nothing wrong with just letting an opportunity go because it’s the right thing to do.

1L SA aside, I think you're severely understating how advantageous it is to be "diverse" in middle/upper class America these days

God the anon abuse in this place is insane, and this is a terrible, terrible take that could only be offered by a clueless white person.

I know, right?

Tell me you’re a racist white male without telling me you’re a racist white male.

Ask Ahmaud Arbery how advantageous it was to be Black in middle class America.

OP here. Went back to talk w/ OCS and this was basically their take. So given that there’s no consensus here, I’ll go with their recommendation. Thanks y’all!

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:58 am

To answer the question presented, diverse for these programs generally means a racial, sexual, religious, or gender minority of some kind.

That said, as a minority myself, I think that if you think that your background provides some kind of unique perspective that would fulfill the aims of a diversity program, you should apply, even if you wouldn't call yourself diverse on a survey. The program isn't about checking census boxes, it's about giving the firm resources that will allow it to, for instance, better sympathize with clients or provide boardroom perspectives that will suggest unusual and ultimately profitable approaches.

If you feel sincerely that you have a voice that will add something to the status quo, and the application doesn't explicitly forbid it, apply. It is natural that anyone competing with you for these spots would discourage you from applying. Ultimately, it's about the firm's bottom line, so let them decide if they view your voice as especially valuable.

2013 wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 15, 2021 3:32 pm

nixy wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 15, 2021 10:35 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 15, 2021 10:24 am

Lacepiece23 wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 15, 2021 10:02 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 15, 2021 9:21 am

Lacepiece23 wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:52 am

As a black male, please don’t apply. You will have plenty of doors open throughout your life. You don’t need to potentially close this one for someone else.

Literally every single black person in my school got a 1L SA, OP applying doesn't take it away from them.

Nice anon and bad logic. I’m sure that 1L positions are open to more than just black 1Ls at your school.

And I’m also sure that every single eligible black law student that applied did not obtain a position.

Everyone knows that these positions are meant to rectify diversity problems, which are a vestige of past and continuing racism in this country.

There is nothing wrong with just letting an opportunity go because it’s the right thing to do.

1L SA aside, I think you're severely understating how advantageous it is to be "diverse" in middle/upper class America these days

God the anon abuse in this place is insane, and this is a terrible, terrible take that could only be offered by a clueless white person.

I know, right?

Tell me you’re a racist white male without telling me you’re a racist white male.

Ask Ahmaud Arbery how advantageous it was to be Black in middle class America.

I don’t think they’re saying that being a minority is without costs. Rather, that the suggestion that black males will not have “plenty of doors open” is contrary to the express hiring, promotion and, admissions practices of most businesses and institutions of higher education. These institutions are often explicit in saying that their goal of closing the achievement gap requires some slanting of the playing field. And this is just a statement of fact. Whether these means and ends are appropriate are value judgements that no one will ever agree on.

What are the doors you see as being closed to minorities? I do think it would be helpful to articulate this further, as many white students see affirmative action programs as particularly powerful (regardless of justification).

As for the anon standard: the boards have typically allowed anonymity wrt these sorts of controversial topics so long as the discourse is respectful and measured. The moderators typically try to avoid chilling open discourse by outing those with less than popular opinions. If I’m wrong, please, moderators shoot me a PM

You might want to consider that some people might judge you for applying to these positions and not want to hire you in the future.

If a straight white male applied to a diversity position at my firm, I would think that he has very poor judgment and would recommend not hiring him if he reapplied for a 2L SA.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 15, 2021 4:21 pm

If a straight white male applied to a diversity position at my firm, I would think that he has very poor judgment and would recommend not hiring him if he reapplied for a 2L SA.

Are those the only types of diversity that matter? That seems really closed-minded.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 15, 2021 4:21 pm

You might want to consider that some people might judge you for applying to these positions and not want to hire you in the future.

If a straight white male applied to a diversity position at my firm, I would think that he has very poor judgment and would recommend not hiring him if he reapplied for a 2L SA.

Honestly if a firm were so close-minded about what counts as diversity, I don’t think I would want to work for them.

How would you even know who applied?