How does everyone feel about mandatory staff bonus contributions? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I just want to pop in and laugh at OP. Dude makes half a million bucks a year to push paper and is complaining about throwing a few hundred dollars to the people who do his bitch work and clean up after him, and wants to stay anonymous so no one knows how cheap he is.

OP - yes, I’m cheap. And probably pretty laughable. But yeah, it’s a forum to vent! I always make the payments, with a smile - but first up, none of these people do my bitch work - I can’t remember the last time I asked my secretary to do anything for me, and I’m not sure why I should be covering the other staff’s benefits (like… did HR really go out of their way for me this year?).

Secondly, my point is not that it’s a crazy burden, it’s that it makes no sense for employees not sharing in the profits to be asked to subsidize from their salaries the bonuses of other salaried employees.

Finally, if the reminder emails were composed in a respectful way about what a nice tradition it is, it would be one thing, but at least at my firm, they’re very much “you are a cheap shit if you don’t comply and you will be shamed amongst the partners” and that gets my hackles up - I don’t like the vibe.

You are a cheap shit if you don’t comply and should be shamed. I agree with the partners and those who wrote the email.

Hyperbole aside, okay, fair enough, respect your opinion. Curious on the rationale though - do you think that all employees at companies who are making 2x or 3x other employees should be contributing to their bonuses? Is it the tradition aspect? Do you just generally think that $600 is not material to high earners, and it’s therefore cheap to have any qualms about fairness with respect to such an amount? Is it cheap to even have the discussion about how the firm manages to avoid approx $1M in employee costs each year by having high earning employees subsidize lower earning employees?

honestly after pages and pages of lengthy screeds in the bonus threads calling for Armageddon if the v100 doesn't pay upsized bonuses, I'm in disbelief that having secured your bag you're now going to stand on ceremony about this point.

and comments from others about "secretaries not doing much" are especially rich after thread after thread about why no-floor shops are great because you can drop 1800 and know you're still making as much as the guy killing himself for 2500. maybe try and get to know your assistant and actually, idk, ask them to help you. type of shit makes me wish dpw had just said "thanks for your service" and matched cravath.

if $600 as a sixth year is genuinely going to eat into your financial wherewithal in any meaningful sense you should check yourself into hr block tomorrow.

if you don't like the practice, raise it to the partnership, but not contributing to your assistant's bonus just screws them.

[Anonymous User]

This. Is. Ridiculous.

No I don't have to pay anyone a Christmas bonus as an employee (emphasis added). It's a norm, not a rule. Don't do it if you don't want to. Sorry, but I'm not paying my secretary a 600$ dollar bonus--its the firms responsibility not mine. Not to mention, it takes them several weeks to process receipts (and I just lateraled so there is no correlation between processing time and prior lack of payment). Don't shame someone because they are "cheap." Maybe they are paying off school loans, maybe they are supporting a family, maybe they are taking care of their parents and can't afford these extra payments that firms--who rake in millions/billions per year should pay. Sorry I'm not sorry.

None of us can make you, but yes, we’re gonna call you cheap when we hear about it and there’s nothing you can do about it. Assistants have family to support too.

[Anonymous User]

This. Is. Ridiculous.

No I don't have to pay anyone a Christmas bonus as an employee (emphasis added). It's a norm, not a rule. Don't do it if you don't want to. Sorry, but I'm not paying my secretary a 600$ dollar bonus--its the firms responsibility not mine. Not to mention, it takes them several weeks to process receipts (and I just lateraled so there is no correlation between processing time and prior lack of payment). Don't shame someone because they are "cheap." Maybe they are paying off school loans, maybe they are supporting a family, maybe they are taking care of their parents and can't afford these extra payments that firms--who rake in millions/billions per year should pay. Sorry I'm not sorry.

LMAO $600 means you'll have trouble making a student loan payment or supporting your family? Let's calm the fuck down ok? You are CHEAP and deserve to be shamed.

[jotarokujo]

This. Is. Ridiculous.

No I don't have to pay anyone a Christmas bonus as an employee (emphasis added). It's a norm, not a rule. Don't do it if you don't want to. Sorry, but I'm not paying my secretary a 600$ dollar bonus--its the firms responsibility not mine. Not to mention, it takes them several weeks to process receipts (and I just lateraled so there is no correlation between processing time and prior lack of payment). Don't shame someone because they are "cheap." Maybe they are paying off school loans, maybe they are supporting a family, maybe they are taking care of their parents and can't afford these extra payments that firms--who rake in millions/billions per year should pay. Sorry I'm not sorry.

what you're missing is that staff salaries are consciously lower because of these gifts, thereby increasing your salary.

so i think it's easiest to think about it this way: if there was no tipping, menu prices would be a bit higher. it's the same thing here. if there weren't these gifts, staff salaries would be a bit higher and your compensation would be a bit lower. so when you give the gift, you're getting the same amount of money compared to if these gifts didn't exist. obviously you could try to get ahead of everyone by not tipping/gifting, but if everyone did that, then menu prices/staff salaries would go up. hope that helps/clears it up

[Anonymous User]

I love how every single argument in this thread for paying the staff bonus is "don't be cheap" yet not one person is acknowledging that the firm could pay these staff bonuses and they wouldn't even notice the rounding error.

Yes, I agree that people that make as much as we do should not be cheap. No I don't agree that we should be expected to bankroll ANY obligation that the firm has and should pay. I haven't seen one good argument otherwise

[Anonymous User]

Just curious - to the people complaining in this thread, you all keep using the $600 figure and then stamping your feet about it. It’s not $600 or $0. This isn’t deal or no deal. Do you at least give like $200 or some other amount that you find reasonable?

Separate question, does no one give to charity anymore? If all of these high earners aren’t chipping in to charity at all, then who is?

[thisismytlsuername]

Most firms *do* pay staff bonuses of some sort. But it's also nice for the kids in their 20s making half a million dollars a year to throw the support staff a few hundred dollars around the end of the year. Sure, you don't share in the profits of the firm. But hasn't your comp gone up ~25% in the past couple years? Do you think that's true for the support staff too?

[Anonymous User]

I love how every single argument in this thread for paying the staff bonus is "don't be cheap" yet not one person is acknowledging that the firm could pay these staff bonuses and they wouldn't even notice the rounding error.

Yes, I agree that people that make as much as we do should not be cheap. No I don't agree that we should be expected to bankroll ANY obligation that the firm has and should pay. I haven't seen one good argument otherwise

There isn’t a good argument otherwise and no one is making one. But you refusing to give your assistant $500 isn’t going to turn the tide so that the firm makes them whole. They’ll just be out $500 that stays in your pocket and they’ll think you’re an asshole.

As many many people have said, this is very much like tipping culture. If you stiff your waiter because you think the restaurant should pay him a living wage, that doesn’t magically happen because you made a stand. You just kept the 20% that the waiter didn’t get to take home, and once again, you are the asshole. People who don’t agree with the idea of tipping culture still leave tips.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a senior associate and this will be the first year I give my secretary a bonus (and it will be consistent with custom). I am strongly against the idea of associates giving out bonuses for the reasons stated ITT, but my secretary got assigned to me during the pandemic and notwithstanding the fact that I've never met her, she's been extremely proactive, effective and helpful. So I'm going to do it because I like her and not because I feel obligated to.

Past secretaries have been completely useless (and one of them with a bad attitude) and I've had no problem giving them nothing. Was it my fault they were useless? Maybe, maybe not. But if you're in biglaw you know most secretaries are not helpful at all, and it's not always the associates fault.

I wouldn't call anyone cheap for not giving a bonus either. After taxes and HCOL "half a million" doesn't get you far in this clown world. And no not looking for sympathy, just agreeing with the point that the firm should be the one paying bonuses, not the associates.

[jotarokujo]

I'm a senior associate and this will be the first year I give my secretary a bonus (and it will be consistent with custom). I am strongly against the idea of associates giving out bonuses for the reasons stated ITT, but my secretary got assigned to me during the pandemic and notwithstanding the fact that I've never met her, she's been extremely proactive, effective and helpful. So I'm going to do it because I like her and not because I feel obligated to.

Past secretaries have been completely useless (and one of them with a bad attitude) and I've had no problem giving them nothing. Was it my fault they were useless? Maybe, maybe not. But if you're in biglaw you know most secretaries are not helpful at all, and it's not always the associates fault.

I wouldn't call anyone cheap for not giving a bonus either. After taxes and HCOL "half a million" doesn't get you far in this clown world. And no not looking for sympathy, just agreeing with the point that the firm should be the one paying bonuses, not the associates.

sure it would be more efficient if tipping didn't exist/if the firm paid it. but you get the same amount of money either way so who cares (i.e. your salary would be lower if these gifts didn't exist)? just because it takes 5 seconds to send the money?

[cheaptilts]

I'm a senior associate and this will be the first year I give my secretary a bonus (and it will be consistent with custom). I am strongly against the idea of associates giving out bonuses for the reasons stated ITT, but my secretary got assigned to me during the pandemic and notwithstanding the fact that I've never met her, she's been extremely proactive, effective and helpful. So I'm going to do it because I like her and not because I feel obligated to.

Past secretaries have been completely useless (and one of them with a bad attitude) and I've had no problem giving them nothing. Was it my fault they were useless? Maybe, maybe not. But if you're in biglaw you know most secretaries are not helpful at all, and it's not always the associates fault.

I wouldn't call anyone cheap for not giving a bonus either. After taxes and HCOL "half a million" doesn't get you far in this clown world. And no not looking for sympathy, just agreeing with the point that the firm should be the one paying bonuses, not the associates.

Imagine how far half of half a million gets you. And then half it again. That’s closer to what your secretaries are getting post-taxes, maybe substantially less in some cases.

Most reputable law firms pay the staff bonuses. But you all make literally a quarter to half a million dollars a year and are balking in one thread about paying a pittance to staff—useless or not—while griping in another about how Cravath ~only~ threw $25k in your direction at the end of the year.

Amazing

[Anonymous User]

I'm a senior associate and this will be the first year I give my secretary a bonus (and it will be consistent with custom). I am strongly against the idea of associates giving out bonuses for the reasons stated ITT, but my secretary got assigned to me during the pandemic and notwithstanding the fact that I've never met her, she's been extremely proactive, effective and helpful. So I'm going to do it because I like her and not because I feel obligated to.

Past secretaries have been completely useless (and one of them with a bad attitude) and I've had no problem giving them nothing. Was it my fault they were useless? Maybe, maybe not. But if you're in biglaw you know most secretaries are not helpful at all, and it's not always the associates fault.

I wouldn't call anyone cheap for not giving a bonus either. After taxes and HCOL "half a million" doesn't get you far in this clown world. And no not looking for sympathy, just agreeing with the point that the firm should be the one paying bonuses, not the associates.

sure it would be more efficient if tipping didn't exist/if the firm paid it. but you get the same amount of money either way so who cares (i.e. your salary would be lower if these gifts didn't exist)? just because it takes 5 seconds to send the money?

Arguing that our salaries would be lower if this “tradition” didn’t exist makes zero sense.

When some firms gave tech stipends and some didn’t, no one said “you’re going to pay for it one way or another” - it was just a case that some firm partnerships stepped up, and some shifted the cost onto the associates.

Same with all other varying levels of benefits offered by firms. Dollars are dollars - if one firm puts serious pressure on to cover some percentage of other salaried employees bonuses, and another firm doesn’t, then it’s a real difference worth noting if not caring about.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a senior associate and this will be the first year I give my secretary a bonus (and it will be consistent with custom). I am strongly against the idea of associates giving out bonuses for the reasons stated ITT, but my secretary got assigned to me during the pandemic and notwithstanding the fact that I've never met her, she's been extremely proactive, effective and helpful. So I'm going to do it because I like her and not because I feel obligated to.

Past secretaries have been completely useless (and one of them with a bad attitude) and I've had no problem giving them nothing. Was it my fault they were useless? Maybe, maybe not. But if you're in biglaw you know most secretaries are not helpful at all, and it's not always the associates fault.

I wouldn't call anyone cheap for not giving a bonus either. After taxes and HCOL "half a million" doesn't get you far in this clown world. And no not looking for sympathy, just agreeing with the point that the firm should be the one paying bonuses, not the associates.

Imagine how far half of half a million gets you. And then half it again. That’s closer to what your secretaries are getting post-taxes, maybe substantially less in some cases.

Most reputable law firms pay the staff bonuses. But you all make literally a quarter to half a million dollars a year and are balking in one thread about paying a pittance to staff—useless or not—while griping in another about how Cravath ~only~ threw $25k in your direction at the end of the year.

Amazing

Cool, i don't care about how much my secretaries make. That's on them. I spent a bunch of time, money for law school, studying for the bar, not to mention undergrad studies. They didn't.

[jotarokujo]

I'm a senior associate and this will be the first year I give my secretary a bonus (and it will be consistent with custom). I am strongly against the idea of associates giving out bonuses for the reasons stated ITT, but my secretary got assigned to me during the pandemic and notwithstanding the fact that I've never met her, she's been extremely proactive, effective and helpful. So I'm going to do it because I like her and not because I feel obligated to.

Past secretaries have been completely useless (and one of them with a bad attitude) and I've had no problem giving them nothing. Was it my fault they were useless? Maybe, maybe not. But if you're in biglaw you know most secretaries are not helpful at all, and it's not always the associates fault.

I wouldn't call anyone cheap for not giving a bonus either. After taxes and HCOL "half a million" doesn't get you far in this clown world. And no not looking for sympathy, just agreeing with the point that the firm should be the one paying bonuses, not the associates.

sure it would be more efficient if tipping didn't exist/if the firm paid it. but you get the same amount of money either way so who cares (i.e. your salary would be lower if these gifts didn't exist)? just because it takes 5 seconds to send the money?

Arguing that our salaries would be lower if this “tradition” didn’t exist makes zero sense.

When some firms gave tech stipends and some didn’t, no one said “you’re going to pay for it one way or another” - it was just a case that some firm partnerships stepped up, and some shifted the cost onto the associates.

Same with all other varying levels of benefits offered by firms. Dollars are dollars - if one firm puts serious pressure on to cover some percentage of other salaried employees bonuses, and another firm doesn’t, then it’s a real difference worth noting if not caring about.

so they've tried to get rid of tipping in some restaurants and instead raise menu prices. it's the same concept here basically. it would have a small effect, but since gifts are so reliable, if they went away, there would be an actual effect on staff salaries. hope that clears it up

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

what you're missing is that staff salaries are consciously lower because of these gifts, thereby increasing your salary.

Yes certainly every dollar the partnership saves is one that goes back to my pocket. They recently decided they have finally made enough.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Imagine how far half of half a million gets you. And then half it again. That’s closer to what your secretaries are getting post-taxes, maybe substantially less in some cases.

For posterity's sake, no secretary anywhere at any level of Biglaw is making anything close to $125k post-tax unless they're blackmailing the partnership.

[Anonymous User]

I feel like this thread is A Christmas Carol come to life in the form of an internet board.

[cheaptilts]

Imagine how far half of half a million gets you. And then half it again. That’s closer to what your secretaries are getting post-taxes, maybe substantially less in some cases.

For posterity's sake, no secretary anywhere at any level of Biglaw is making anything close to $125k post-tax unless they're blackmailing the partnership.

Yes. I meant half of half of half a million.

[jsnow212]

I'm a senior associate and this will be the first year I give my secretary a bonus (and it will be consistent with custom). I am strongly against the idea of associates giving out bonuses for the reasons stated ITT, but my secretary got assigned to me during the pandemic and notwithstanding the fact that I've never met her, she's been extremely proactive, effective and helpful. So I'm going to do it because I like her and not because I feel obligated to.

Past secretaries have been completely useless (and one of them with a bad attitude) and I've had no problem giving them nothing. Was it my fault they were useless? Maybe, maybe not. But if you're in biglaw you know most secretaries are not helpful at all, and it's not always the associates fault.

I wouldn't call anyone cheap for not giving a bonus either. After taxes and HCOL "half a million" doesn't get you far in this clown world. And no not looking for sympathy, just agreeing with the point that the firm should be the one paying bonuses, not the associates.

Imagine how far half of half a million gets you. And then half it again. That’s closer to what your secretaries are getting post-taxes, maybe substantially less in some cases.

Most reputable law firms pay the staff bonuses. But you all make literally a quarter to half a million dollars a year and are balking in one thread about paying a pittance to staff—useless or not—while griping in another about how Cravath ~only~ threw $25k in your direction at the end of the year.

Amazing

Cool, i don't care about how much my secretaries make. That's on them. I spent a bunch of time, money for law school, studying for the bar, not to mention undergrad studies. They didn't.

Exact cheap, entitled shit partners say when they offload secretary bonus costs to the associates.

[Anonymous User]

I feel like this thread is A Christmas Carol come to life in the form of an internet board.

No doubt many of the posters who say the $500 is crucial to repay their student loans or take care of their family (when their all-in comp is one thousand times that) are complaining in another thread about boomer partners who won’t give associates bigger bonuses. Both sides of the coin here.

[papermateflair]

I assume that folks who don't want to pay meaningful bonuses aren't going to regardless of what is said in this thread, so there's no point in fighting with them. But for those of you who do not understand, if I give my secretary a $1000 gift (which is apparently unreasonably generous according to the numbers being thrown around here), that is less than 0.2% of my all-in pre-tax comp as a senior associate. If you want to nickel and dime your assistant or the staff over $500, then sure, go ahead and do that, but do it with the knowledge that it is almost nothing to you.

Sure, you can spend your entire career looking out only for yourself and your bottom line, but why take that attitude when it costs you next to nothing to build up other people and bring them along with you. Just like other people have dedicated time and effort into helping you develop and spending $200k in salary on a first year with literally zero experience, you should have the same spirit of generosity to others - sometimes that means just cutting people a break, and other times (like at the holidays) it means giving staff and assistants a tiny piece of that giant check you're getting.

[jotarokujo]

what you're missing is that staff salaries are consciously lower because of these gifts, thereby increasing your salary.

Yes certainly every dollar the partnership saves is one that goes back to my pocket. They recently decided they have finally made enough.

point is partnership will never give up their money. that's what i'm saying. if there was no gifting and staff salaries went up commensurately, it would come out of associate pay, not partnership. that would be the same situation as now money wise because we just give in gift form. don't assume partnership would do us a favor if there were no gifts

[Anonymous User]

Imagine how far half of half a million gets you. And then half it again. That’s closer to what your secretaries are getting post-taxes, maybe substantially less in some cases.

For posterity's sake, no secretary anywhere at any level of Biglaw is making anything close to $125k post-tax unless they're blackmailing the partnership.

Yes. I meant half of half of half a million.

I know lawyers are bad at math, but half of half of half = 1/8 = 125,000.

[Anonymous User]

The cheapskates in this thread are incredible. Listen, you're not subsidizing your secretary's compensation. Your secretary isn't going broke because you and a few other misers decided not to throw a few hundred bucks their way. You are giving them a nice gift and token of appreciation at the end of the year. It is a GESTURE. And the fact you are so against it speaks volumes about you.

[Anonymous User]

Imagine how far half of half a million gets you. And then half it again. That’s closer to what your secretaries are getting post-taxes, maybe substantially less in some cases.

For posterity's sake, no secretary anywhere at any level of Biglaw is making anything close to $125k post-tax unless they're blackmailing the partnership.

Yes. I meant half of half of half a million.

I know lawyers are bad at math, but half of half of half = 1/8 = 125,000.

jfc, 1/8 of 500,000 is 62.5k.