NY M&A Lateral: Latham vs. Kirkland Forum

[Anonymous User]

Lol at Latham paying above market for “most associates”. If your above median with hours or above median with reviews you get a bump. It’s not big, though and not where Kirkland is (it can be like 5k and makes you wonder why they bothered giving it to you for the 300-400 hours you were above bonus threshold). If you have median hours and median reviews, you get market.

That said I voted Latham. I’d rather get run over by a truck than work at Kirkland.

Almost everyone gets the "median" bonus, though, even if they just hit hours. Then there's increments on top of that for hours and adjective levels.

This is inaccurate and is explained every year at the stupid bonus meeting. The bonus starts at market. If you are above median in hours for your class there is a bump which gets graded up. If you are above median for your reviews there is a bump which gets graded up depending on adjective. If you are median or below in both, no bump. The reason the median is always above market is because as long as there is one person who didn't get above median hours but got above median reviews (or vice versa), the median bonus will be above market and equal to the first bump. The entire bonus structure is incredibly stupid, and the fact that they spend all that time coming up with what literally every other firm is able to do with about 1/4 the effort is just embarrassing.

Again, definitely choose it over KE, though.

LW associate - that is not how it works. Bump is for being above the minimum hours, not being above the median. As a reference point, I've seen multiple people in the 1.3x range for ~2400-2500 hours. Not good and not worth shooting for, but not so small as to be insulting (unless you are a 1st or 2nd year).

I'm not sure how they bump based on reviews - its more black box. A couple years ago though they showed the breakdown of hour thresholds to get each level of increased bonus.

I don’t think that’s accurate. I’ve never heard of someone getting an hours bump at 1920 or whatever (above minimum). I admittedly stopped going to the bonus meetings, but unless it’s changed like last year, the hours bump came if you were above the median hours (which was normally somewhere between 1980 and 2150 for your class year). Ratings bump was also starting at median.

Also a big bump at 2500 is for someone who is at over 130% of pace. That’s a very high threshold and not where most lw associates end up.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a KE alum. If I had to do it all over again and these were my choices, I'd choose Latham. It may not be better than KE, but it certainly can't be worse.

[Anonymous User]

I can't offer a ton of personal insight as I haven't actually worked at either in NY, but I would go to Latham.

The other guy saying he would rather get hit by a truck than work at Kirkland is just..dumb? Generalizing the personality of an office of 840+ attorneys and a firm of several thousand is illogical at best and at worst, lazy and in bad faith.

That being said, I've had a lot of interaction with attorneys at both of these offices, and I just generally enjoyed speaking with Latham associates a lot more - I felt like we perhaps had much more in common (generally, a more relaxed approach). All of the associates at Latham that I networked with (and probably 90% at Kirkland NY, actually) enjoyed working there.

At the end of the day they're both massive firms where you're going to work a lot - though, your group could make a difference, and maybe you care about a little extra pay. Good luck!

I tend to agree about generalizing huge firms based on personalities in one or two instances. I’ve run into plenty of good and bad personalities at both firms. The one thing that’s interesting is I do feel like the reputation in PE circles is Latham prioritizes capital markets/pubco work over PE and Kirkland prioritizes PE over capital markets, so if you’re on the PE side of M&A you may run into sponsors who take issue with that.

I think I've been across from Kirkland on 20-30 deals (quoted truck person). 90% of them were objectively much worse than average. Again, I don't think this is a controversial opinion. If anyone here has had lots of experience across from Kirkland and think they are about average in the industry or better than average, feel free to speak up.

Well no, it can’t really be a controversial opinion if it’s your personal experience and opinion. It’s just a huge firm and therefore not really fair to take your experience and generalize it to the entire group. This true for every huge firm, not just Kirkland. I also don’t want to be too confrontational here but if you’re talking dozens of people you didn’t get along with, it might be a you problem (or you just really don’t get along with a certain type of people?)

The plus side at Kirkland is OP can find out who he/she enjoys working with and stick with those people. I would still go Latham if not PE focused, but it’s something to consider.

Is the idea of Kirkland being particularly combative really that hard to believe? If the partners want it that way, then it's going to flow down accordingly. It's not a criticism of the people either, outside of the real shotcallers. The Kirkland associates have no choice if the partner wants them to pick fights on everything.

Being combative is probably more driven by the client than the firm tbh… I don’t think Kirkland would be as successful as they are if they didn’t know how to service all types of clients, but for folks who genuinely are “I don’t give a shit just get the deal done” I think Kirkland is very good at doing that. And I think going to a firm that’s the best at what you’re interested is important, and it’s an objective fact Kirkland is the best at PE and Latham’s capital markets practice are each better than the other. Harder to tell with pubco M&A.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a KE alum. If I had to do it all over again and these were my choices, I'd choose Latham. It may not be better than KE, but it certainly can't be worse.

Elaborate?

[Anonymous User]

I'm a KE alum. If I had to do it all over again and these were my choices, I'd choose Latham. It may not be better than KE, but it certainly can't be worse.

Elaborate?

The last two years at the firm have been absolutely brutal, and the partnership has said over and over that they're trying to make things better but nothing gets better. It's a joke that KE considers it the most business-like law firm, because no Fortune 500 company would let itself get assfucked by labor demand this hard. They'd actually raise wages and bring people in quick enough to end the revolving door within 6 months meanwhile KE hasn't been able to close it for 2 years despite offering egregious signing bonuses. Even before COVID, the partners weren't exactly the most thankful folks. My group's "culture" during COVID was just been spamming me with zoom group meetings that are totally TOTALLY optional but also SPs and aggro NSPs drop a line every so often asking you why you're missing so many. Maybe because I'm trying to do one thing in my day that isn't for the firm? No amount of office amenities, free meals, gift packages, etc. make up for it. I'm now at a boutique where the economics aren't to extract every last ounce of profit creation from my labor, and it feels like 100x better than the "culture" of KE. Considering KE is on the far end of labor exploitation (yeah yeah whatever WLRK exists I get it), my post is simply that Latham could not be worse. Plus, holy shit did I not realize how aggressive on average KE folks were until I left. I'm sure this is littered with typos. Don't care.

[thisismytlsuername]

I'm a KE alum. If I had to do it all over again and these were my choices, I'd choose Latham. It may not be better than KE, but it certainly can't be worse.

Elaborate?

The last two years at the firm have been absolutely brutal, and the partnership has said over and over that they're trying to make things better but nothing gets better. It's a joke that KE considers it the most business-like law firm, because no Fortune 500 company would let itself get assfucked by labor demand this hard. They'd actually raise wages and bring people in quick enough to end the revolving door within 6 months meanwhile KE hasn't been able to close it for 2 years despite offering egregious signing bonuses. Even before COVID, the partners weren't exactly the most thankful folks. My group's "culture" during COVID was just been spamming me with zoom group meetings that are totally TOTALLY optional but also SPs and aggro NSPs drop a line every so often asking you why you're missing so many. Maybe because I'm trying to do one thing in my day that isn't for the firm? No amount of office amenities, free meals, gift packages, etc. make up for it. I'm now at a boutique where the economics aren't to extract every last ounce of profit creation from my labor, and it feels like 100x better than the "culture" of KE. Considering KE is on the far end of labor exploitation (yeah yeah whatever WLRK exists I get it), my post is simply that Latham could not be worse. Plus, holy shit did I not realize how aggressive on average KE folks were until I left. I'm sure this is littered with typos. Don't care.

It's kind of funny that you say that it's "a joke that KE considers it the most business-like law firm" and then go on to say that the purpose of KE is "to extract every last ounce of profit creation from my labor." That's the purpose of a business in a capitalist society -- to create profit for its shareholders. KE is incredibly good at that.

[NightOWL101]

I can't offer a ton of personal insight as I haven't actually worked at either in NY, but I would go to Latham.

The other guy saying he would rather get hit by a truck than work at Kirkland is just..dumb? Generalizing the personality of an office of 840+ attorneys and a firm of several thousand is illogical at best and at worst, lazy and in bad faith.

That being said, I've had a lot of interaction with attorneys at both of these offices, and I just generally enjoyed speaking with Latham associates a lot more - I felt like we perhaps had much more in common (generally, a more relaxed approach). All of the associates at Latham that I networked with (and probably 90% at Kirkland NY, actually) enjoyed working there.

At the end of the day they're both massive firms where you're going to work a lot - though, your group could make a difference, and maybe you care about a little extra pay. Good luck!

I tend to agree about generalizing huge firms based on personalities in one or two instances. I’ve run into plenty of good and bad personalities at both firms. The one thing that’s interesting is I do feel like the reputation in PE circles is Latham prioritizes capital markets/pubco work over PE and Kirkland prioritizes PE over capital markets, so if you’re on the PE side of M&A you may run into sponsors who take issue with that.

I think I've been across from Kirkland on 20-30 deals (quoted truck person). 90% of them were objectively much worse than average. Again, I don't think this is a controversial opinion. If anyone here has had lots of experience across from Kirkland and think they are about average in the industry or better than average, feel free to speak up.

Well no, it can’t really be a controversial opinion if it’s your personal experience and opinion. It’s just a huge firm and therefore not really fair to take your experience and generalize it to the entire group. This true for every huge firm, not just Kirkland. I also don’t want to be too confrontational here but if you’re talking dozens of people you didn’t get along with, it might be a you problem (or you just really don’t get along with a certain type of people?)

The plus side at Kirkland is OP can find out who he/she enjoys working with and stick with those people. I would still go Latham if not PE focused, but it’s something to consider.

Is the idea of Kirkland being particularly combative really that hard to believe? If the partners want it that way, then it's going to flow down accordingly. It's not a criticism of the people either, outside of the real shotcallers. The Kirkland associates have no choice if the partner wants them to pick fights on everything.

Being combative is probably more driven by the client than the firm tbh… I don’t think Kirkland would be as successful as they are if they didn’t know how to service all types of clients, but for folks who genuinely are “I don’t give a shit just get the deal done” I think Kirkland is very good at doing that. And I think going to a firm that’s the best at what you’re interested is important, and it’s an objective fact Kirkland is the best at PE and Latham’s capital markets practice are each better than the other. Harder to tell with pubco M&A.

Am currently at K&E NY and would generally agree with the above, deals/clients’ expectations have gotten even more demanding which I didn’t think was possible before. As mentioned from other K&E ppl (former and current), the past two years have been absolutely brutal. Not sure if we’re bleeding associates more than any other large firms, but I’ve seen that some laterals do have a difficult time adjusting. The culture at K&E NY is and always has been “sink or swim” to the extreme - you’ll be expected to run deals without much, if any, hand holding. If you’re lucky, you’ll find mentors and decent partners to work with (the sooner the better), but even they are pretty overworked. Not many people will have the time to sit and explain to you so you’re going to just have to learn as you go and learn extremely fast. It’s a steep learning curve and it’s not for everyone.

As with any large firms, you’re going to have various personalities. Some are difficult to work with and across from. Being overworked with what seems like limited resources (available juniors, etc.) also doesn’t help and can drive any usually pleasant person to be less so, but I do think there are many amazing ppl who work at K&E (both in M&A and all the specialist groups - which is why I’m still here) and they do try to continue to look out for their clients’ best interests and if that sometimes comes off as being too aggressive or combative, then so be it.

Personally one of the big factors for me when considering firms is the ability to be able to pick who I get to work for. You don’t want to get stuck on deals with partners you don’t mix well with - it can be hell that honestly you don’t need when you’re working daunting hours and does nothing for you except probably add to the trauma that is Biglaw. If you’re busy and work enough hours, no one is going to make you get on any other deals, but you do need to be able to be firm when saying no.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a KE alum. If I had to do it all over again and these were my choices, I'd choose Latham. It may not be better than KE, but it certainly can't be worse.

Elaborate?

The last two years at the firm have been absolutely brutal, and the partnership has said over and over that they're trying to make things better but nothing gets better. It's a joke that KE considers it the most business-like law firm, because no Fortune 500 company would let itself get assfucked by labor demand this hard. They'd actually raise wages and bring people in quick enough to end the revolving door within 6 months meanwhile KE hasn't been able to close it for 2 years despite offering egregious signing bonuses. Even before COVID, the partners weren't exactly the most thankful folks. My group's "culture" during COVID was just been spamming me with zoom group meetings that are totally TOTALLY optional but also SPs and aggro NSPs drop a line every so often asking you why you're missing so many. Maybe because I'm trying to do one thing in my day that isn't for the firm? No amount of office amenities, free meals, gift packages, etc. make up for it. I'm now at a boutique where the economics aren't to extract every last ounce of profit creation from my labor, and it feels like 100x better than the "culture" of KE. Considering KE is on the far end of labor exploitation (yeah yeah whatever WLRK exists I get it), my post is simply that Latham could not be worse. Plus, holy shit did I not realize how aggressive on average KE folks were until I left. I'm sure this is littered with typos. Don't care.

It's kind of funny that you say that it's "a joke that KE considers it the most business-like law firm" and then go on to say that the purpose of KE is "to extract every last ounce of profit creation from my labor." That's the purpose of a business in a capitalist society -- to create profit for its shareholders. KE is incredibly good at that.

Also, thinking that a Fortune 500 would run out and staff up instead of trying to milk more productivity out of existing employees is hilarious. I spent significant time in corporate America before law school and have tons of friends across the Fortune 500, smaller tech companies, all sorts of businesses. Trying to squeeze efficiency out of existing staff is EXACTLY what they all do and you’re naive if you think law firms are unique in that (and further naive if you think K&E is the only firm doing so).