Being a lawyer on the side? Forum

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nixy

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Re: Being a lawyer on the side?

Post by nixy » Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:19 pm

thebroteinshake wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:54 pm
2. (a) For a VERY FEW simple legal processes, getting a degree and working part-time may be enough, but (b) it isn't worth the investment: (a) is the question that I was actually asking, so thanks to the folks for answering me. As for concluding that it isn't worth my investment (b), thanks for the advice - they are well-taken, and I totally see your point of view. I do disagree about the impact of even small legal exercises can do in the community, however. I came over the to States with my mom and my sister 20 years ago, and I remember we would struggle with the most basic immigration processes: applying for an F-2, an H-1B, and then a Green Card. In retrospect, we were a pretty straight forward case, but as immigrants who had just moved with poor English skills, the process was daunting. Having someone in our community who could help us navigate this would've given us a tremendous peace of mind, even if they could only help us with very small, basic legal processes. Yes, the full-time attorneys who practice immigration will know much more and do a much better job, but they were never available to my family. For some specific, simple legal processes, I figured that having one more person to help would be better than having none at all. I also imagined there could be some supervision in these non-profit organizations so that I stay within the guardrails. In sum, I believed significance of service doesn't always linearly move with complexity.

Now to address the cost side of this investment, I imagine a lot of folks also think 0Ls just don't know how difficult and costly law school is. I don't think that's the 0L's fault - how can anyone know how tough those 3 years are until they get through them? But in my defense, I probably did more diligence about what going to law school would mean than 99% of 0Ls. For the first three years of my career, I worked at a consulting firm that provides economic expert testimonies used in support high stakes commercial litigation. I have sat in on 4 different 1L class lectures and have read parts of the textbooks that were used. I have crafted various financial projections with Excel sheets on what law school would cost me, with variations baked in for my monthly spending and unforeseen life events (I have an analytics background). In addition to talking to practicing associates in my network, I've cold called law firm partners in the fields I am interested in (white collar, international arbitration, IP) to chat about their experiences and how I should think about my legal career. I also have another thread here where I ask folks how one could learn what BL litigation would be like before going law school (viewtopic.php?f=23&t=311290).

I think I have as realistic expectations about what going to law school and practicing law would mean as any 0L could. I welcome folks disagreeing with me about the alternative service opportunities being superior to community, etc., but also know that my disagreement with you isn't coming from me not researching the cost and the rigor of law school. Like someone else said, I don't need and am not looking for anyone's approval in these discussion, but I also don't want anyone to treat me as if I haven't done my diligence.
So, about the immigration stuff: you're absolutely right that someone else helping in the context you describe could be very valuable. But for the kind of thing you're describing, you don't actually need a law degree (and in fact, there are lots of non-lawyers who help new immigrants negotiate paperwork, etc). You could probably find venues for this kind of volunteering right now. (As for the legal side of it, immigration law is actually incredibly complex and there's an unfortunate number of attorneys who either do it badly or take people's money to help them with an application that's never going to succeed. There are of course good immigration attorneys and they are the salt of the earth and worth their weight in gold, but if you want to help out with basically straightforward stuff, you don't need to be one.) You mention supervision, and that's obviously also a thing, but a lot of PI organizations are stretched thin and while on the one hand, that means they might appreciate a volunteer, on the other, they don't necessarily have time to train someone who knows nothing. (I also think there are different incentives for working with law student volunteers, who also know nothing, and working with volunteers who have a JD.)

As for the rest of it: if you're interested in white collar, international arbitration, IP and/or BL litigation, what volunteering do you imagine doing that's relevant to those fields? If that's what you intend to do when you transition into law full time, having gone to law school and then not worked full-time as a lawyer for years (? it sounds like), or in those fields, is going to make you a very very strange candidate for any of those jobs. If you get a law degree then continue to work in tech for a number of years while doing some pro bono on the side, then after some years want to transition to full-time legal practice, people aren't going to understand that career path and aren't going to want to hire you. You won't look like a new/entry-level attorney, you'll look like a however-many-years attorney who doesn't have any experience. Doing minimal pro bono in a completely different field will not keep you relevant as a candidate. (My only caveat is that your tech job sounds relatively prestigious so may help you out - I don't know enough to say - but I still think it won't go far enough.)

So again, if your ultimate goal is to practice law full time, then go to law school when you're ready to practice law full time.

Or to put it a different way: if your goal is ultimately to practice law full time, what is the benefit to going to law school now and volunteering for a while? What do you imagine this offering you that a more traditional path wouldn't?

12YrsAnAssociate

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Re: Being a lawyer on the side?

Post by 12YrsAnAssociate » Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:10 pm

Fuck, 2 pages? Just go to law school man. We're obviously not going to change your mind.

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Re: Being a lawyer on the side?

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:14 pm

12YrsAnAssociate wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:10 pm
Fuck, 2 pages? Just go to law school man. We're obviously not going to change your mind.
OP's posting history is rather interesting.

Barrred

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Re: Being a lawyer on the side?

Post by Barrred » Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:14 pm
12YrsAnAssociate wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:10 pm
Fuck, 2 pages? Just go to law school man. We're obviously not going to change your mind.
OP's posting history is rather interesting.
TLS loves him because he's presenting a novel issue/situation for us to fight about, unlike the legions of traditional 0Ls asking the same shit over and over.

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Re: Being a lawyer on the side?

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:56 pm

Barrred wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:30 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:14 pm
12YrsAnAssociate wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:10 pm
Fuck, 2 pages? Just go to law school man. We're obviously not going to change your mind.
OP's posting history is rather interesting.
TLS loves him because he's presenting a novel issue/situation for us to fight about, unlike the legions of traditional 0Ls asking the same shit over and over.
I was pointing out that he was set to go to NU on a full scholarship in 2016. Then got a decent career in tech, maybe now feeling FOMO that he missed out being a lawyer?

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Re: Being a lawyer on the side?

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:36 pm

Barrred wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:30 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:14 pm
12YrsAnAssociate wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:10 pm
Fuck, 2 pages? Just go to law school man. We're obviously not going to change your mind.
OP's posting history is rather interesting.
TLS loves him because he's presenting a novel issue/situation for us to fight about, unlike the legions of traditional 0Ls asking the same shit over and over.
Might be a novel question, but it’s the same old TLS arc: poster asks question, ostensibly seeking input; gets input he doesn’t like; argues with posters that they are wrong about the thing they presumably know about and he doesn’t (hence the question); accuses posters disagreeing with him of not understanding his very specific question, chastises them for going beyond the scope of the question, and claiming that they must be butthurt that he is daring to challenge them; rinse and repeat.

ClubberLang

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Re: Being a lawyer on the side?

Post by ClubberLang » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:05 pm

Op, you don't get it and won't listen, but clients deserve better than someone literally half-assing their issues. Donating the money you'd burn on tuition to your favorite org would almost certainly do more good than the plan you are concocting.

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Lacepiece23

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Re: Being a lawyer on the side?

Post by Lacepiece23 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:38 am

I haven’t read most the shit in this thread. But are we really so full of ourselves to say that someone can’t practice part time?

What we do isn’t rocket science. You can do it part time.

nixy

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Re: Being a lawyer on the side?

Post by nixy » Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:31 am

Lacepiece23 wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:38 am
I haven’t read most the shit in this thread. But are we really so full of ourselves to say that someone can’t practice part time?

What we do isn’t rocket science. You can do it part time.
So you’re saying that 1) a PI organization will be interested in having a new grad who’s never practiced volunteer a few (non-business) hours a week on top of a full time non-legal job, and 2) going to law school for three years to do this makes sense?

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Lacepiece23

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Re: Being a lawyer on the side?

Post by Lacepiece23 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:55 pm

nixy wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:31 am
Lacepiece23 wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:38 am
I haven’t read most the shit in this thread. But are we really so full of ourselves to say that someone can’t practice part time?

What we do isn’t rocket science. You can do it part time.
So you’re saying that 1) a PI organization will be interested in having a new grad who’s never practiced volunteer a few (non-business) hours a week on top of a full time non-legal job, and 2) going to law school for three years to do this makes sense?
1) perhaps. A lot are understaffed and if they don’t have to pay, they might take OP. Hell, my law firm is public interest orientated (employment/civil rights), and I hire law students on a paid part time basis all the time to handle tasks. I’d hire OP to help me for free.

2) Idk if it’s the best idea. But if OP has the resources and this is what OP wants to do, then I don’t think it’s the worst way to spend time and help people. Lawyers seem to forget the good that you can do with a law degree. Especially here where we obsess whether Cravath is going to go to 240k next year or whatever.

I kept someone in her home for free this year and it was as simple as entering into a limited appearance and ghost writing an answer.

There are opportunities like this all over the legal sphere. I’m not going to discourage someone who wants to do it.

Admittedly, I haven’t read the thread so there may be nuance that I’ve missed. But If the gist is that OP is rich, wants to volunteer, and wants to get a law degree to do so, then by all means …

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Re: Being a lawyer on the side?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:10 pm

Lacepiece23 wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:55 pm
Hell, my law firm is public interest orientated (employment/civil rights), and I hire law students on a paid part time basis all the time to handle tasks.
If you are willing to hire individuals without law degrees, why would OP need a law degree?

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Re: Being a lawyer on the side?

Post by Lacepiece23 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:42 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:10 pm
Lacepiece23 wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:55 pm
Hell, my law firm is public interest orientated (employment/civil rights), and I hire law students on a paid part time basis all the time to handle tasks.
If you are willing to hire individuals without law degrees, why would OP need a law degree?
That’s just dumb. I’m one employer who hires law students to do work, which I supervise. I also have a fantastic paralegal who does legal work that I supervise. This isn’t a novel concept.

These law students learn enough about legal research, writing, and some substantive law to do basic tasks that help me out.

Not sure if this is a serious question or why it’s anon.

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Re: Being a lawyer on the side?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:18 pm

Lacepiece23 wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:42 pm
That’s just dumb. I’m one employer who hires law students to do work, which I supervise. I also have a fantastic paralegal who does legal work that I supervise. This isn’t a novel concept.

These law students learn enough about legal research, writing, and some substantive law to do basic tasks that help me out.

Not sure if this is a serious question or why it’s anon.
Why is my question dumb? You literally just explained why OP does not need to go to law school to accomplish what he wants to do.

Have you read the thread since your last post? If not, you probably should, because you are literally just repeating everyone else's points for why OP's plan makes no sense.

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Lacepiece23

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Re: Being a lawyer on the side?

Post by Lacepiece23 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:26 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:18 pm
Lacepiece23 wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:42 pm
That’s just dumb. I’m one employer who hires law students to do work, which I supervise. I also have a fantastic paralegal who does legal work that I supervise. This isn’t a novel concept.

These law students learn enough about legal research, writing, and some substantive law to do basic tasks that help me out.

Not sure if this is a serious question or why it’s anon.
Why is my question dumb? You literally just explained why OP does not need to go to law school to accomplish what he wants to do.

Have you read the thread since your last post? If not, you probably should, because you are literally just repeating everyone else's points for why OP's plan makes no sense.
Because I listed ally said that I’m hiring people in pursuit of degrees and you conflated that to mean that I would just hire anyone.

If OP was a diligent law student, I, and many small firm owners, would hire OP on a part time basis to do legal work. Most schools have clinical programs like this.

If OP told me that he wished to return to his job but continue doing the same work that I was willing to pay for on a continuing part time basis, I would say yes in a heart beat. I’m assuming other small stuff plaintiff firms would as well.

It’s my understanding that OP wants to practice law on a part time basis. You need to go to law school to accomplish this and it helps tremendously if you are in pursuit of doing that to obtain substantive legal work.

OP should do what he or she wants, and I always welcome lawyers willing to help out because we need more.

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Re: Being a lawyer on the side?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:35 am

Lacepiece23 wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:26 pm
It’s my understanding that OP wants to practice law on a part time basis. You need to go to law school to accomplish this and it helps tremendously if you are in pursuit of doing that to obtain substantive legal work.
Your understanding is wrong. OP wants to work on a volunteer basis, not as a part-time employee. The question is whether OP should enter law school now and attempt to find some volunteer position while working in tech after law school, or simply work in tech and volunteer as able in legal or law-adjacent capacities until OP wants to attend law school full time and pivot to law full time.

If you are willing to take part-time law student volunteers who then go on not to be barred and to work full-time in another industry, then I struggle to see why you would not be willing to hire volunteers who have a mere interest in law and are willing to learn what is necessary to perform their limited tasks.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

nixy

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Re: Being a lawyer on the side?

Post by nixy » Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:37 am

I think it's great when people want to volunteer/give back to the community. But there are lots of ways that the OP can volunteer/help people, even in legal-adjacent matters, that don't require going to law school for 3 years (or I guess 4 years if they went the "full ride to local part time program" route).

The OP has also said that they're interested in white collar, international arbitration, and IP, and that they would volunteer on the side of their full-time tech job (so, evenings and weekends) until they're financially independent, and then they would pivot to law full time, and that they want to volunteer as a way to avoid the WLB/cultural issues that come with law (though it sounds like they mean specifically biglaw). I mean, is it the worst idea in the world? Maybe not, if they can afford it (not sure that "not going into debt" means that this is a good way to spend their money). It just sounds really weird and all over the place and I still don't get why they wouldn't put off law school until the time when they actually want to practice full time, or just go to law school now and get a job with good WLB/culture to start with.

And I continue to think that it would be very hard to establish yourself as a lawyer through such a plan. It's not like the OP wants to work 15-20 hours a week; they want to volunteer outside of their full time tech job. Obviously there are non-business-hours opportunities (I get that people who need legal help are often busy during business hours), but it seems like a lot of work and complication for a not-very-good basis for a full time position later. I suppose if they did, say, basic landlord tenant stuff 5-10 hours a week for a number of years, maybe that org or a similar org would be interested in hiring them into a full time position down the road. But switching to the other areas they've referenced would be hard. I know my employer would never hire someone with that experience.

(Also, about hiring that diligent law student to work for free after they graduated... isn't it a violation of the FLSA for a private employer to accept free labor? Or is your firm a non-profit?)

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Re: Being a lawyer on the side?

Post by thebroteinshake » Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:05 pm

Wow, this post blew up. Just to clear things up:

OP ONLY wants to do volunteer basis for no pay: Never said that - I am open to exploring all part-time basis work, max up to 20 hours per week. It seems like Lacepiece23 thinks it's possible.
Lacepiece23 wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:42 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:10 pm
Lacepiece23 wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:55 pm
Hell, my law firm is public interest orientated (employment/civil rights), and I hire law students on a paid part time basis all the time to handle tasks.
If you are willing to hire individuals without law degrees, why would OP need a law degree?
That’s just dumb. I’m one employer who hires law students to do work, which I supervise. I also have a fantastic paralegal who does legal work that I supervise. This isn’t a novel concept.

These law students learn enough about legal research, writing, and some substantive law to do basic tasks that help me out.

Not sure if this is a serious question or why it’s anon.
OP thinks he can get into white collar/IP/anti trust on a part-time basis. Or, OP thinks his part-time career will jumpstart his full-time career: Never said this either. Those were the fields I would've wanted to explore if I wanted to go full-time. Think about it: (1) I told you I have a fiancé who is in Big Law and have talked to many BL litigation associates across all fields. Why would I think I would hold a candle to them (most of them billing over 2000 hours a year) on a part-time basis? (2) In this forum, I repeatedly asked for small legal exercises and listed examples that I thought belonged to that category. I do think I could transition doing those small legal exercises full-time as a post-retirement job, but I never said I wanted to use that as a launchpad to go into the other more complex lit fields.

OP doesn't want to listen: I do want to listen, but I can't do anything with advice that doesn't address the question I am asking. It's cool if you don't think practicing part-time is possible or think it's not worth any sort of investment - I am exploring the idea as well, not advocating it. On the other hand, don't rage over things I didn't say, like "OP wants to practice complex litigation part-time" or "OP wants to pay full-tuition to a full-time program to do this as a side job". I know it's convenient for the sake of your narrative, but don't you all get paid to read and write accurately?

OP is butt hurt: I am not, but it seems like many folks in this thread are really "butt hurt" by my question. Look, I totally respect the profession and wasn't saying I could do what most of you do on a part-time basis; I was simply looking to learn about areas where even a part-time hand would be helpful. How much clearer can I make myself on that point?

OP wants validation about going to law school from TLS people: I am not; I've been on this forum for a long time, and I know how pessimistic this forum is about anyone pursuing law as a profession. There's no way I would argue against this crowd on that point, and I frankly agree with a lot of their opinions: the profession demands an unmanageable amount of your time using a flawed billing system, the hierarchical structure allows bad bosses to be worse, the path to promotion is too long and unclear, and the exit options can be wanting, especially for litigators. With the law school decision, I will do what I need to do; I was just on here to get some information.

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Re: Being a lawyer on the side?

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:01 pm

Lol so 20 people say this plan makes no sense, 1 person says maybe it's possible, OPs reaction is "see I guess it can work".

I'll just wait for the next post OP makes in 2024 asking about law school.

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Re: Being a lawyer on the side?

Post by Lacepiece23 » Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:59 pm

thebroteinshake wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:05 pm
Wow, this post blew up. Just to clear things up:

OP ONLY wants to do volunteer basis for no pay: Never said that - I am open to exploring all part-time basis work, max up to 20 hours per week. It seems like Lacepiece23 thinks it's possible.
Lacepiece23 wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:42 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:10 pm
Lacepiece23 wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:55 pm
Hell, my law firm is public interest orientated (employment/civil rights), and I hire law students on a paid part time basis all the time to handle tasks.
If you are willing to hire individuals without law degrees, why would OP need a law degree?
That’s just dumb. I’m one employer who hires law students to do work, which I supervise. I also have a fantastic paralegal who does legal work that I supervise. This isn’t a novel concept.

These law students learn enough about legal research, writing, and some substantive law to do basic tasks that help me out.

Not sure if this is a serious question or why it’s anon.
OP thinks he can get into white collar/IP/anti trust on a part-time basis. Or, OP thinks his part-time career will jumpstart his full-time career: Never said this either. Those were the fields I would've wanted to explore if I wanted to go full-time. Think about it: (1) I told you I have a fiancé who is in Big Law and have talked to many BL litigation associates across all fields. Why would I think I would hold a candle to them (most of them billing over 2000 hours a year) on a part-time basis? (2) In this forum, I repeatedly asked for small legal exercises and listed examples that I thought belonged to that category. I do think I could transition doing those small legal exercises full-time as a post-retirement job, but I never said I wanted to use that as a launchpad to go into the other more complex lit fields.

OP doesn't want to listen: I do want to listen, but I can't do anything with advice that doesn't address the question I am asking. It's cool if you don't think practicing part-time is possible or think it's not worth any sort of investment - I am exploring the idea as well, not advocating it. On the other hand, don't rage over things I didn't say, like "OP wants to practice complex litigation part-time" or "OP wants to pay full-tuition to a full-time program to do this as a side job". I know it's convenient for the sake of your narrative, but don't you all get paid to read and write accurately?

OP is butt hurt: I am not, but it seems like many folks in this thread are really "butt hurt" by my question. Look, I totally respect the profession and wasn't saying I could do what most of you do on a part-time basis; I was simply looking to learn about areas where even a part-time hand would be helpful. How much clearer can I make myself on that point?

OP wants validation about going to law school from TLS people: I am not; I've been on this forum for a long time, and I know how pessimistic this forum is about anyone pursuing law as a profession. There's no way I would argue against this crowd on that point, and I frankly agree with a lot of their opinions: the profession demands an unmanageable amount of your time using a flawed billing system, the hierarchical structure allows bad bosses to be worse, the path to promotion is too long and unclear, and the exit options can be wanting, especially for litigators. With the law school decision, I will do what I need to do; I was just on here to get some information.
I venture to say that I’m likely the only one who practices in small law, sometimes referred to as shitlaw on this site who has posted in this thread.

I personally agree with all of your points. I’m routinely able to get good work product, when I give good instructions, to law students from TTT schools.

If I can get that from them who is to say that you can’t give that to someone else.

On another issue, defense lawyers do not understand the ways in which the plaintiffs bar is evolving. A lot of firms operate under the assumption that the only way to learn is to figure it out on your own and then be yelled at when you screw it up. Research has shown that positive rather than negative reinforcement fosters better performance.

A lot of plaintiffs firms are embracing this concept. I routinely record Loom videos explaining my process so that the law student handling the assignment has clear instructions on what needs done and why I do it a certain way.

I suggest that you look into the maximum lawyer community. I spend most my time there now (as far as online lawyer communities go). It’s a community of over 4000 small firm lawyers that share a similar mindset and would welcome a part time lawyer coming from a great law school or even a good one with a great attitude/work ethic.

You can start by listening to the podcast then joining the Facebook group.

If you do decide to go to law school, please look me up. My name is Andrew Lacy and my website is employment-labor-law.com. Feel free to call my office anytime.

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Re: Being a lawyer on the side?

Post by Lacepiece23 » Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:43 pm

nixy wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:37 am
I think it's great when people want to volunteer/give back to the community. But there are lots of ways that the OP can volunteer/help people, even in legal-adjacent matters, that don't require going to law school for 3 years (or I guess 4 years if they went the "full ride to local part time program" route).

The OP has also said that they're interested in white collar, international arbitration, and IP, and that they would volunteer on the side of their full-time tech job (so, evenings and weekends) until they're financially independent, and then they would pivot to law full time, and that they want to volunteer as a way to avoid the WLB/cultural issues that come with law (though it sounds like they mean specifically biglaw). I mean, is it the worst idea in the world? Maybe not, if they can afford it (not sure that "not going into debt" means that this is a good way to spend their money). It just sounds really weird and all over the place and I still don't get why they wouldn't put off law school until the time when they actually want to practice full time, or just go to law school now and get a job with good WLB/culture to start with.

And I continue to think that it would be very hard to establish yourself as a lawyer through such a plan. It's not like the OP wants to work 15-20 hours a week; they want to volunteer outside of their full time tech job. Obviously there are non-business-hours opportunities (I get that people who need legal help are often busy during business hours), but it seems like a lot of work and complication for a not-very-good basis for a full time position later. I suppose if they did, say, basic landlord tenant stuff 5-10 hours a week for a number of years, maybe that org or a similar org would be interested in hiring them into a full time position down the road. But switching to the other areas they've referenced would be hard. I know my employer would never hire someone with that experience.

(Also, about hiring that diligent law student to work for free after they graduated... isn't it a violation of the FLSA for a private employer to accept free labor? Or is your firm a non-profit?)
I’ll just address your last point. I’m not a covered employee under the FLSA so I theoretically could hire a volunteer.

But that wasn’t really a literal statement. I’d probably pay said employee intent on volunteering minimum wage or most likely much more, which would still be less than paying a full time associate.

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Re: Being a lawyer on the side?

Post by thebroteinshake » Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:01 pm
Lol so 20 people say this plan makes no sense, 1 person says maybe it's possible, OPs reaction is "see I guess it can work".

I'll just wait for the next post OP makes in 2024 asking about law school.

Oh, do enlighten us why you disagree, but do so coherently. In case you didn't catch the essence of the question, employment questions like these are one of those situations where an opportunities need to exist in few areas and do not need to exist in all areas in consensus - it's not like I need five different jobs at the same time. Have you looked for a job before?

It sounded like lacepiece23 is the one closest to the field that has the type of opportunities I am looking for and you (anon) are closer to complex fields / big law, but if you feel like you are more knowledgeable, put together a coherent thought to let me know why you disagree. (And why are you anon? Nothing to hide, right?)

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Re: Being a lawyer on the side?

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:08 pm

OP, I don't think people necessarily mean to yank your chain. I did read your posts, carefully, and remained confused about how volunteering part-time on small-ish PI matters fit with working full time and your interest in other complex lit practice areas. I did genuinely understand you to be saying that you'd do the one kind of law part time until financial security, then switch. In part, I don't really understand why your goals would be so different if you went to school full-time v. part-time. That's not to say your goals are wrong/bad, they're just outside the norm enough that they're confusing people.

Maybe it's just because I'm too old and burned out, but part of my issue is that I can't understand working part-time in one profession on top of a full time job in another profession. The last thing I want to do at the end of a work day/week is another job. It would be one thing if it were an independent/autonomous side-hustle of some kind arising out of hobbies or other skills, but working part-time as a lawyer doesn't fit that model.

Some of it is that there are just a lot of logistical issues. Paying to go to law school and losing out on three years of income to be able to work small-law part-time on top of another job seems really inefficient (plus you'd have to get a new tech job at the end of it, I assume?), which you acknowledge by referencing going instead to a local school part time on a free ride. But if you do that, you make it very hard to get the kind of opportunities that lacepiece referenced, like working for his firm as a law student, since you will presumably be working your tech job full time and going to school on top of it, so you won't have time to do the kind of interning/student jobs that help lead to the kinds of opportunities that lacepiece is talking about. (A lot of non-biglaw opportunities arise through experience/connections more than grades.) And while there are things you can do outside business hours, if you're interested at all in litigation, you kind of need to be available when courts are open. You could do only the outside-court preparation stuff, I suppose, but that may be unduly constraining depending on what kind of help you can offer, and some employers/orgs are going to be interested in work during business hours. Obviously not all, as lacepiece suggests, but some. (And tbf I think there are night courts out there, but I've never worked anywhere with any, so.)

The thing is that lawyers tend to be cautious/pessimistic (in that it's often our job to figure out everything that might go wrong) and therefore conservative about career paths. What you want to do isn't really an established career path that law school can set you up for, which is why most people are skeptical. That doesn't mean you won't be able to carve out some kind of path that satisfies you, but it's going to be individual enough that it's very hard for many people here to advise you about how that would work.

(lacepiece is right that most people here don't practice small law, and it is quite different from the more hierarchical world of biglaw and many other legal opportunities. I'll also note that lacepiece didn't practice small law straight out of law school, although doubtless he has much more information now about it from people who probably did. I think part of my confusion is also that I read your posts as talking very much about PI work, which isn't the same as the small law that lacepiece practices, even if there are a lot of overlapping interests.)

edit: sorry, not enough sleep and accidental anon. This is nixy.

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Re: Being a lawyer on the side?

Post by Lacepiece23 » Sun Nov 28, 2021 9:28 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:08 pm
OP, I don't think people necessarily mean to yank your chain. I did read your posts, carefully, and remained confused about how volunteering part-time on small-ish PI matters fit with working full time and your interest in other complex lit practice areas. I did genuinely understand you to be saying that you'd do the one kind of law part time until financial security, then switch. In part, I don't really understand why your goals would be so different if you went to school full-time v. part-time. That's not to say your goals are wrong/bad, they're just outside the norm enough that they're confusing people.

Maybe it's just because I'm too old and burned out, but part of my issue is that I can't understand working part-time in one profession on top of a full time job in another profession. The last thing I want to do at the end of a work day/week is another job. It would be one thing if it were an independent/autonomous side-hustle of some kind arising out of hobbies or other skills, but working part-time as a lawyer doesn't fit that model.

Some of it is that there are just a lot of logistical issues. Paying to go to law school and losing out on three years of income to be able to work small-law part-time on top of another job seems really inefficient (plus you'd have to get a new tech job at the end of it, I assume?), which you acknowledge by referencing going instead to a local school part time on a free ride. But if you do that, you make it very hard to get the kind of opportunities that lacepiece referenced, like working for his firm as a law student, since you will presumably be working your tech job full time and going to school on top of it, so you won't have time to do the kind of interning/student jobs that help lead to the kinds of opportunities that lacepiece is talking about. (A lot of non-biglaw opportunities arise through experience/connections more than grades.) And while there are things you can do outside business hours, if you're interested at all in litigation, you kind of need to be available when courts are open. You could do only the outside-court preparation stuff, I suppose, but that may be unduly constraining depending on what kind of help you can offer, and some employers/orgs are going to be interested in work during business hours. Obviously not all, as lacepiece suggests, but some. (And tbf I think there are night courts out there, but I've never worked anywhere with any, so.)

The thing is that lawyers tend to be cautious/pessimistic (in that it's often our job to figure out everything that might go wrong) and therefore conservative about career paths. What you want to do isn't really an established career path that law school can set you up for, which is why most people are skeptical. That doesn't mean you won't be able to carve out some kind of path that satisfies you, but it's going to be individual enough that it's very hard for many people here to advise you about how that would work.

(lacepiece is right that most people here don't practice small law, and it is quite different from the more hierarchical world of biglaw and many other legal opportunities. I'll also note that lacepiece didn't practice small law straight out of law school, although doubtless he has much more information now about it from people who probably did. I think part of my confusion is also that I read your posts as talking very much about PI work, which isn't the same as the small law that lacepiece practices, even if there are a lot of overlapping interests.)

edit: sorry, not enough sleep and accidental anon. This is nixy.
I agree with a lot of this too. In the end, from a pure ROI standpoint, this is a terrible idea.

To close the loop on my thoughts on this, you can say the same for DAs and PD, excepting California. They aren’t doing this for the money and it seems that OP isn’t going down this path for the money.

I’ll reiterate that this isn’t the place to go to for advice on alternative/creative career paths in law. It’s immensely helpful for getting advice on maxing your LSAT, picking a law school, and figuring out which biglaw form to start at. I only continue to post here for people like you and I like to keep a pulse on what’s going on in the biglaw world still.

You can actually do quite a lot with your law degree if money isn’t your main driver. I know plenty of female law firm owners that only actively practice 5-15 hours per week (they have amazing business acumen) because they want to be there for their families and/or just had a child. There are also male law firm owners who do the same for similar reasons. I recommend looking into Carolyn Elefant and her story regarding going solo. She’s blogged at length about it.

The one thing that I don’t think has been said, and is a serious consideration, is whether your FAANG job allows you to moonlight like this. You couldn’t do this with most legal employers. Not sure what that would be like for your job.

Lastly, I’d think the most practical thing to do would be to get involved in as many clinics as you can. Then, perhaps reach out to small firms doing the type of work you want to do and work for next to nothing to learn the ropes for a bit. Someone will bite.

Then, if I’m you, I’d just start my own firm and take referral work from the bar. I don’t know your job flexibility but landlord/tenant and simple crim matters seem to be manageable with your time allotment. There’s tons of courses teaching lawyers wills/estates as well that you can buy.

In my world, it’s seen as such an easy money maker for a small firm that there is a whole emerging hustle surrounding teaching lawyers this practice area.

There’s also tons and tons of CLEs and listserves out there that can help get you up to speed. Further, I know a lot of small firm owners that had another job when they were getting that practice started. I was lucky to have some things fall my way and was busy right away. A lot of solos aren’t. And they do things like drive Uber to pay the bills at first.

In the end, if money isn’t the goal, I don’t see why you couldn’t do this. I actually don’t think it would be very hard.

Like others said, however, this isn’t necessarily your most efficient path.

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Re: Being a lawyer on the side?

Post by nixy » Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:06 pm

I don’t think that doing basic part-time work on the side of another profession is comparable to being a DA/PD just because neither pays well.

Question: how many of the lawyers now running their own firm on 5-15 hours a week started those firms out of law school? I know people *can* successfully start their own firms right after graduating, but I’m curious how many people do it that way rather than getting experience in a firm/other law job first. (Carolyn Elefant did the latter.)

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Re: Being a lawyer on the side?

Post by Lacepiece23 » Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:58 am

nixy wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:06 pm
I don’t think that doing basic part-time work on the side of another profession is comparable to being a DA/PD just because neither pays well.

Question: how many of the lawyers now running their own firm on 5-15 hours a week started those firms out of law school? I know people *can* successfully start their own firms right after graduating, but I’m curious how many people do it that way rather than getting experience in a firm/other law job first. (Carolyn Elefant did the latter.)
Regarding your first point, I’m talking purely ROI. There’s a lot of smart people making way less in law than they would in another profession. And it’s a conscious choice. That’s why I think it’s comparable.

I know some people that went the firm route right after law school, build the thing up, then scale down the hours. That’s preferable.

If OP were to do it, I’d recommend working for dirt cheap for a couple of years, then hanging a shingle or something and taking cases as he or she sees fit through referral programs.

The difference between OP and a lot of no offer 3ls who start their own firm is that OP isn’t worried about paying the bills with the law firm gig. The lack of cash flow is the reason these ventures fail.

I’ll be curious to see if OP goes through with this plan, however. I tend to think this has all been academic.

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

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