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Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 16, 2021 6:34 pm

I'm particularly interested in firms with Chicago locations, but open to hearing about anything. And by "culture," I'm being intentionally vague: I'd be into everything from low facetime requirements, relaxed dress code, cool perks, nice co-workers, partners who leave you alone on weekends, and so on.

Sackboy wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:58 am

I'm a transactional attorney, so I could be wrong here. But, when I hear about awful "culture" in transactional groups it's because people are working 24/7 in what can often feel like a very soulless job. When I hear about awful "culture" in litigation groups it tends to be because the partners are actually batshit assholes high on the prestige of their pedigree and how smart they are or its surrounding the absolutely abysmal chances of making equity partner in most litigation groups.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 17, 2021 10:58 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 16, 2021 6:34 pm

I'm particularly interested in firms with Chicago locations, but open to hearing about anything. And by "culture," I'm being intentionally vague: I'd be into everything from low facetime requirements, relaxed dress code, cool perks, nice co-workers, partners who leave you alone on weekends, and so on.

Litigation midlevel here at a firm not known for being lifestyle friendly. It's funny that you bring up facetime/dress code because my understanding is Quinn is pretty lax on both and is also an insane place to work.

Unfortunately it's much more about the "who" than the "where." At any biglaw firm, you can get on case teams run by masochist partners. At my firm, there are big-time partners who insist upon Sunday morning team calls for an hour, because that's when their family is getting ready for church and so they want to make use of it. There are partners who will send comments on drafts etc. at 10 or 11 PM and then will email the client at 8 AM that they'll get whatever material that morning (i.e. you are going to do it right now or else burn the partner to the client, which is very bad for you). There are partners who disappear from case management entirely and leave senior associates alone to run the show until they swoop in and declare that the strategy is a big mistake and weeks or even months of work need to be redone in a matter of days.

But there are also partners who are reasonable: they have high expectations for work quality and how many hours you'll put in, but they won't give arbitrary deadlines, they'll be there to support you when you need it and they'll give you space to do your job, they'll preview big moments coming down the pipe, and they are just all around solid to work for.

I expect there are some from each bucket at every firm. It really will depend heavily on which cases you get on. And generally speaking, the laterals get the bad cases when they first start, because the current associates are doing what they can to take the good work with the good partners.

As far as firm-specific stuff, since you mentioned Chicago I am aware that the Kirkland lit team in that office has been getting destroyed for over a year and has suffered large defections accordingly (they are also hiring a lot of laterals, apparently). If lifestyle is important to you in Chicago then I think you just drop Quinn and Kirkland and you start asking people who actually work at places like Sidley or Jenner what their experience has been like.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:49 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 17, 2021 10:58 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 16, 2021 6:34 pm

I'm particularly interested in firms with Chicago locations, but open to hearing about anything. And by "culture," I'm being intentionally vague: I'd be into everything from low facetime requirements, relaxed dress code, cool perks, nice co-workers, partners who leave you alone on weekends, and so on.

Litigation midlevel here at a firm not known for being lifestyle friendly. It's funny that you bring up facetime/dress code because my understanding is Quinn is pretty lax on both and is also an insane place to work.

Unfortunately it's much more about the "who" than the "where." At any biglaw firm, you can get on case teams run by masochist partners. At my firm, there are big-time partners who insist upon Sunday morning team calls for an hour, because that's when their family is getting ready for church and so they want to make use of it. There are partners who will send comments on drafts etc. at 10 or 11 PM and then will email the client at 8 AM that they'll get whatever material that morning (i.e. you are going to do it right now or else burn the partner to the client, which is very bad for you). There are partners who disappear from case management entirely and leave senior associates alone to run the show until they swoop in and declare that the strategy is a big mistake and weeks or even months of work need to be redone in a matter of days.

But there are also partners who are reasonable: they have high expectations for work quality and how many hours you'll put in, but they won't give arbitrary deadlines, they'll be there to support you when you need it and they'll give you space to do your job, they'll preview big moments coming down the pipe, and they are just all around solid to work for.

I expect there are some from each bucket at every firm. It really will depend heavily on which cases you get on. And generally speaking, the laterals get the bad cases when they first start, because the current associates are doing what they can to take the good work with the good partners.

As far as firm-specific stuff, since you mentioned Chicago I am aware that the Kirkland lit team in that office has been getting destroyed for over a year and has suffered large defections accordingly (they are also hiring a lot of laterals, apparently). If lifestyle is important to you in Chicago then I think you just drop Quinn and Kirkland and you start asking people who actually work at places like Sidley or Jenner what their experience has been like.

Thanks! That's very helpful. Re: lifestyle, I've heard good things about Sidley, Jenner, and Mayer. I've also heard good things about Latham, but I am still bitter about the recession layoffs, and so I'd rather avoid them.

Joachim2017 wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:32 am

Sackboy wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:58 am

I'm a transactional attorney, so I could be wrong here. But, when I hear about awful "culture" in transactional groups it's because people are working 24/7 in what can often feel like a very soulless job. When I hear about awful "culture" in litigation groups it tends to be because the partners are actually batshit assholes high on the prestige of their pedigree and how smart they are or its surrounding the absolutely abysmal chances of making equity partner in most litigation groups.

This is too over-simplified in that plenty of transactional groups have "awful" culture in the way described above for litigation groups: asshole partners with ego complexes who have delusional thoughts that they are business people just like their big-name clients, rather than servicemen for those clients. There are assholes in both types of groups, it's just what they are "high" on that's sometimes different (pedigree v. rubbing shoulders with fancy clients, etc.).

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:49 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 17, 2021 10:58 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 16, 2021 6:34 pm

I'm particularly interested in firms with Chicago locations, but open to hearing about anything. And by "culture," I'm being intentionally vague: I'd be into everything from low facetime requirements, relaxed dress code, cool perks, nice co-workers, partners who leave you alone on weekends, and so on.

Litigation midlevel here at a firm not known for being lifestyle friendly. It's funny that you bring up facetime/dress code because my understanding is Quinn is pretty lax on both and is also an insane place to work.

Unfortunately it's much more about the "who" than the "where." At any biglaw firm, you can get on case teams run by masochist partners. At my firm, there are big-time partners who insist upon Sunday morning team calls for an hour, because that's when their family is getting ready for church and so they want to make use of it. There are partners who will send comments on drafts etc. at 10 or 11 PM and then will email the client at 8 AM that they'll get whatever material that morning (i.e. you are going to do it right now or else burn the partner to the client, which is very bad for you). There are partners who disappear from case management entirely and leave senior associates alone to run the show until they swoop in and declare that the strategy is a big mistake and weeks or even months of work need to be redone in a matter of days.

But there are also partners who are reasonable: they have high expectations for work quality and how many hours you'll put in, but they won't give arbitrary deadlines, they'll be there to support you when you need it and they'll give you space to do your job, they'll preview big moments coming down the pipe, and they are just all around solid to work for.

I expect there are some from each bucket at every firm. It really will depend heavily on which cases you get on. And generally speaking, the laterals get the bad cases when they first start, because the current associates are doing what they can to take the good work with the good partners.

As far as firm-specific stuff, since you mentioned Chicago I am aware that the Kirkland lit team in that office has been getting destroyed for over a year and has suffered large defections accordingly (they are also hiring a lot of laterals, apparently). If lifestyle is important to you in Chicago then I think you just drop Quinn and Kirkland and you start asking people who actually work at places like Sidley or Jenner what their experience has been like.

Thanks! That's very helpful. Re: lifestyle, I've heard good things about Sidley, Jenner, and Mayer. I've also heard good things about Latham, but I am still bitter about the recession layoffs, and so I'd rather avoid them.

If lifestyle is the goal, absolutely don't go to KE. They've been really trying with the perks, like all sorts of free food, etc., and there's the new building soonish, but none of that changes the reality that they're massively busy.

On the other hand, for a certain person, a group being busy is a good thing.

Robot wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:09 pm

BFKN goes below market but I believe it’s deliberately a “lifestyle” firm. It’s as selective as any firm in Chi not called Bartlit Beck though.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:18 pm

Robot wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:09 pm

BFKN goes below market but I believe it’s deliberately a “lifestyle” firm. It’s as selective as any firm in Chi not called Bartlit Beck though.

Not OP, but do they hire clerks?

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:58 pm

I’m a 2nd year in V20 lit in NYC. I’ve been consistently busy but have only pulled a handful of late nights (past 10 PM) whereas my friends in transactional routinely work past midnight or pull all nighters. Granted there are still fire drills in lit but many of them you can see coming. Work life balance is necessarily poor because it’s big law but it seems better than the transactional practices, fwiw.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:13 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:58 pm

I’m a 2nd year in V20 lit in NYC. I’ve been consistently busy but have only pulled a handful of late nights (past 10 PM) whereas my friends in transactional routinely work past midnight or pull all nighters. Granted there are still fire drills in lit but many of them you can see coming. Work life balance is necessarily poor because it’s big law but it seems better than the transactional practices, fwiw.

The main takeaway that I've gotten from this board overall is that, on average, transactional attorneys have much less control of their time and genuinely dislike their jobs, whereas litigators seem to complain much less and are mostly sad about weaker exit options (though it's not 100% clear to me that that's even right). The corporate folks often tend to make up for this by saying they're more valuable and should be paid more. Given how miserable they all sound, I don't blame them.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:13 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:58 pm

I’m a 2nd year in V20 lit in NYC. I’ve been consistently busy but have only pulled a handful of late nights (past 10 PM) whereas my friends in transactional routinely work past midnight or pull all nighters. Granted there are still fire drills in lit but many of them you can see coming. Work life balance is necessarily poor because it’s big law but it seems better than the transactional practices, fwiw.

The main takeaway that I've gotten from this board overall is that, on average, transactional attorneys have much less control of their time and genuinely dislike their jobs, whereas litigators seem to complain much less and are mostly sad about weaker exit options (though it's not 100% clear to me that that's even right). The corporate folks often tend to make up for this by saying they're more valuable and should be paid more. Given how miserable they all sound, I don't blame them.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:13 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:58 pm

I’m a 2nd year in V20 lit in NYC. I’ve been consistently busy but have only pulled a handful of late nights (past 10 PM) whereas my friends in transactional routinely work past midnight or pull all nighters. Granted there are still fire drills in lit but many of them you can see coming. Work life balance is necessarily poor because it’s big law but it seems better than the transactional practices, fwiw.

The main takeaway that I've gotten from this board overall is that, on average, transactional attorneys have much less control of their time and genuinely dislike their jobs, whereas litigators seem to complain much less and are mostly sad about weaker exit options (though it's not 100% clear to me that that's even right). The corporate folks often tend to make up for this by saying they're more valuable and should be paid more. Given how miserable they all sound, I don't blame them.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:50 pm

I intentionally left securities lit after specializing in it early specifically because the exit options seemed terrible. The end goal was either going to be govt for life or partner in some size firm, neither of which seemed appealing.

Hoping that retooling into more of a white collar focus with some other general lit experience opens up some more doors - though who knows for what.

Long way of saying, yea lit exit options are 100% rougher.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:55 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:50 pm

I intentionally left securities lit after specializing in it early specifically because the exit options seemed terrible. The end goal was either going to be govt for life or partner in some size firm, neither of which seemed appealing.

Hoping that retooling into more of a white collar focus with some other general lit experience opens up some more doors - though who knows for what.

Long way of saying, yea lit exit options are 100% rougher.

If you could start over, would you have gone into transactional? If not, what litigation would you have done to optimize your exit options?

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:13 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:58 pm

I’m a 2nd year in V20 lit in NYC. I’ve been consistently busy but have only pulled a handful of late nights (past 10 PM) whereas my friends in transactional routinely work past midnight or pull all nighters. Granted there are still fire drills in lit but many of them you can see coming. Work life balance is necessarily poor because it’s big law but it seems better than the transactional practices, fwiw.

The main takeaway that I've gotten from this board overall is that, on average, transactional attorneys have much less control of their time and genuinely dislike their jobs, whereas litigators seem to complain much less and are mostly sad about weaker exit options (though it's not 100% clear to me that that's even right). The corporate folks often tend to make up for this by saying they're more valuable and should be paid more. Given how miserable they all sound, I don't blame them.