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Finishing up district clerkship in prestigious district (SDNY/NDCal/DDC). Completed interviews with dream BigFed (DOJ/SEC/FTC) and with judge on 2/9/DC. I’m afraid choosing one will forever preclude me from pursuing the other later down the road. Please help me choose.

Neither will preclude you from the other in some absolute sense, but it's rare to see clerks coming from DOJ, etc. I think it would be easier (and way more common) to go clerkship --> DOJ than DOJ --> clerkship. If you were competitive for the Fed job now, you will continue to be competitive in a year or two, and anyways Fed jobs are (generally) easier to score than a clerkship on the Circuits you referenced (although there may be some Fed agencies or areas that hire super rarely -- I guess if your offer is in one of those, that would be a consideration).

Might depend on the BigFed job--if it's e.g. a DOJ Honors position, and that's what you want to do, those are hard enough to get that you may not get a second bite. Also hard disagree that it would be harder to go from DOJ to a clerkship than from a clerkship to DOJ. You see the former path much less often because the vast majority of people start at DOJ when they're already beyond clerking age, but that doesn't mean you couldn't do it if you wanted to, most judges would see it as a big plus.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:41 pm

Might depend on the BigFed job--if it's e.g. a DOJ Honors position, and that's what you want to do, those are hard enough to get that you may not get a second bite. Also hard disagree that it would be harder to go from DOJ to a clerkship than from a clerkship to DOJ. You see the former path much less often because the vast majority of people start at DOJ when they're already beyond clerking age, but that doesn't mean you couldn't do it if you wanted to, most judges would see it as a big plus.

But wouldn't it be weird to leave DOJ after a couple years to go clerk? I don't know that government would hold your position for you like a firm would. And harder to move from DOJ to clerking in the sense that clerkships are just harder to come by than DOJ jobs and a lot of it is the stars aligning in the right way. I don't know that just because someone was offered a 2/9/DC clerkship once they could be certain they could land one again. And while there is no hard cut off for how long out of school a clerk can be, it would be a little weird to go clerk with like 6 or 7 years experience...

OP here. I appreciate the varied views. To clarify, I applied to BigFed (where openings are hard to come by) as a lateral, not through honors (spent a couple years at the firm). Both BigFed and Judge know about the other, so timing could also be potentially awkward.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:41 pm

Might depend on the BigFed job--if it's e.g. a DOJ Honors position, and that's what you want to do, those are hard enough to get that you may not get a second bite. Also hard disagree that it would be harder to go from DOJ to a clerkship than from a clerkship to DOJ. You see the former path much less often because the vast majority of people start at DOJ when they're already beyond clerking age, but that doesn't mean you couldn't do it if you wanted to, most judges would see it as a big plus.

I don’t really think the issue is whether judges would see DOJ as a plus, but whether leaving DOJ for a clerkship would serve your long term goals. For a lot of people it wouldn’t, because there’s no guarantee you’d get the DOJ gig back again after clerking (whereas a firm may keep your position open, or you just go to another functionally identical firm). If you want to be in DOJ long term there’s no incentive to go to DOJ but bail for a term clerkship. So when the other poster says it’s rare to see people go from DOJ to clerkships that doesn’t only mean, because that’s the harder path to get. It means that fewer people do it, because it doesn’t make sense career-wise (so it’s harder to make it work).

Also, it’s moot since the op isn’t going through honors, but there isn’t any real functional difference between an honors gig and a lateral fedgov gig. Honors is basically the only way you can get in at the entry level, but it’s the same job you’d get lateraling. And it’s not really harder to get than lateraling - there are always way more applicants than jobs (for a good fedgov gig), whichever level it’s at.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:41 pm

Might depend on the BigFed job--if it's e.g. a DOJ Honors position, and that's what you want to do, those are hard enough to get that you may not get a second bite. Also hard disagree that it would be harder to go from DOJ to a clerkship than from a clerkship to DOJ. You see the former path much less often because the vast majority of people start at DOJ when they're already beyond clerking age, but that doesn't mean you couldn't do it if you wanted to, most judges would see it as a big plus.

But wouldn't it be weird to leave DOJ after a couple years to go clerk? I don't know that government would hold your position for you like a firm would. And harder to move from DOJ to clerking in the sense that clerkships are just harder to come by than DOJ jobs and a lot of it is the stars aligning in the right way. I don't know that just because someone was offered a 2/9/DC clerkship once they could be certain they could land one again. And while there is no hard cut off for how long out of school a clerk can be, it would be a little weird to go clerk with like 6 or 7 years experience...

It would be hard in that it likely would not not make career sense, but I don't think it's really true that clerkships are much harder to come by than DOJ jobs if (1) you actually apply for them, which would be the issue with DOJ --> clerk, (2) if you have the credentials such that a COA clerkship is realistic, which it sounds like OP does, and (3) if the clerkship you're talking about is just a "normal" one, not a particularly selective COA judge. Clerkships aren't rocket science, if you're qualified, and apply broadly (including across multiple cycles if necessary), you'll land one. Odds are it wouldn't be the specific opportunity OP has now, but they would probably get a roughly comparable one eventually unless they got really lucky with their app this time.

If the BigFed is a dream as you say then I’d take that. Clerkship will always be there if you decide to transition out of that role in the next few years and then use the clerk year to launch into whatever’s next, like biglaw. And if you decide not to leave to clerk later then, great, you’re in your dream job anyway.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 11, 2021 4:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:41 pm

Might depend on the BigFed job--if it's e.g. a DOJ Honors position, and that's what you want to do, those are hard enough to get that you may not get a second bite. Also hard disagree that it would be harder to go from DOJ to a clerkship than from a clerkship to DOJ. You see the former path much less often because the vast majority of people start at DOJ when they're already beyond clerking age, but that doesn't mean you couldn't do it if you wanted to, most judges would see it as a big plus.

But wouldn't it be weird to leave DOJ after a couple years to go clerk? I don't know that government would hold your position for you like a firm would. And harder to move from DOJ to clerking in the sense that clerkships are just harder to come by than DOJ jobs and a lot of it is the stars aligning in the right way. I don't know that just because someone was offered a 2/9/DC clerkship once they could be certain they could land one again. And while there is no hard cut off for how long out of school a clerk can be, it would be a little weird to go clerk with like 6 or 7 years experience...

It would be hard in that it likely would not not make career sense, but I don't think it's really true that clerkships are much harder to come by than DOJ jobs if (1) you actually apply for them, which would be the issue with DOJ --> clerk, (2) if you have the credentials such that a COA clerkship is realistic, which it sounds like OP does, and (3) if the clerkship you're talking about is just a "normal" one, not a particularly selective COA judge. Clerkships aren't rocket science, if you're qualifiedn., and apply broadly (including across multiple cycles if necessary), you'll land one. Odds are it wouldn't be the specific opportunity OP has now, but they would probably get a roughly comparable one eventually unless they got really lucky with their app this time.

OP here. I’m extremely lucky to have gotten interviews at either place, given my credentials. Let’s just say, both my law school and TLS would have laughed in my face if I asked what were my chances of landing my current clerkship. Explains why I’m more than a little stressed over this. I know full well that this may not happen again. So on one hand, I want to keep my options open by taking the COA, but on the other, I genuinely consider the BigFed gig my end goal and said as much during my interview.

(Also, I recognize this entire dilemma could be moot if I get one or neither.)

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:03 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 11, 2021 4:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:41 pm

Might depend on the BigFed job--if it's e.g. a DOJ Honors position, and that's what you want to do, those are hard enough to get that you may not get a second bite. Also hard disagree that it would be harder to go from DOJ to a clerkship than from a clerkship to DOJ. You see the former path much less often because the vast majority of people start at DOJ when they're already beyond clerking age, but that doesn't mean you couldn't do it if you wanted to, most judges would see it as a big plus.

But wouldn't it be weird to leave DOJ after a couple years to go clerk? I don't know that government would hold your position for you like a firm would. And harder to move from DOJ to clerking in the sense that clerkships are just harder to come by than DOJ jobs and a lot of it is the stars aligning in the right way. I don't know that just because someone was offered a 2/9/DC clerkship once they could be certain they could land one again. And while there is no hard cut off for how long out of school a clerk can be, it would be a little weird to go clerk with like 6 or 7 years experience...

It would be hard in that it likely would not not make career sense, but I don't think it's really true that clerkships are much harder to come by than DOJ jobs if (1) you actually apply for them, which would be the issue with DOJ --> clerk, (2) if you have the credentials such that a COA clerkship is realistic, which it sounds like OP does, and (3) if the clerkship you're talking about is just a "normal" one, not a particularly selective COA judge. Clerkships aren't rocket science, if you're qualifiedn., and apply broadly (including across multiple cycles if necessary), you'll land one. Odds are it wouldn't be the specific opportunity OP has now, but they would probably get a roughly comparable one eventually unless they got really lucky with their app this time.

OP here. I’m extremely lucky to have gotten interviews at either place, given my credentials. Let’s just say, both my law school and TLS would have laughed in my face if I asked what were my chances of landing my current clerkship. Explains why I’m more than a little stressed over this. I know full well that this may not happen again. So on one hand, I want to keep my options open by taking the COA, but on the other, I genuinely consider the BigFed gig my end goal and said as much during my interview.

(Also, I recognize this entire dilemma could be moot if I get one or neither.)

Then the answer here is to take the BigFed job if you are offered. Having already clerked at the district court level, COA would only give you an advantage at the federal level in a very small subset of federal jobs (think SG's office) and sounds more like a prestige move on your part than anything that is career advancing. Take the job you ultimately want if it's offered.

I disagree with the pp. I would still do the clerkship even if the gov job is your dream job. Dreams change either because preferences change or life circumstances intervene, and the clerkship would be a bonus to help make a switch down the line. Plus, if that agency was hiring once, they will hire again. Maybe not directly out the clerkship, but within a reasonable number of years. And if you weren't competitive for your district clerkship but landed it anyways, it sounds like your chances of landing another COA clerkship might be more limited, and you age out of clerking in a way that is not applicable to gov jobs. At some point it is true that we all need to accept narrower options, but I don't know that you are there yet.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 12, 2021 2:10 pm

I disagree with the pp. I would still do the clerkship even if the gov job is your dream job. Dreams change either because preferences change or life circumstances intervene, and the clerkship would be a bonus to help make a switch down the line. Plus, if that agency was hiring once, they will hire again. Maybe not directly out the clerkship, but within a reasonable number of years. And if you weren't competitive for your district clerkship but landed it anyways, it sounds like your chances of landing another COA clerkship might be more limited, and you age out of clerking in a way that is not applicable to gov jobs. At some point it is true that we all need to accept narrower options, but I don't know that you are there yet.

This is wrong on pretty much every level possible. First, dreams do not just change on a dime unless there is some horrific (and rare) change in circumstances or you are young/naive/unable to assess a situation accurately. Second, "reasonable number of years" in some cases is 10+ depending on the agency/division. Third, you keep pushing the COA without actually explaining why it is in any way better than landing the job that is the end goal and available now.

Yeah, I get the concern about keeping all options open, but if the OP really is looking to options some years down the line, the practice experience they get during those years is going to be much more material than doing the COA. For one thing, they have a shiny DCt clerkship, so they can still tick the "prestigious clerkship" box. For another, I really would want to hear exactly what job options doing the COA would keep open that the OP doesn't have now. The only one I can think of is certain kinds of federal appellate work. If the OP want to gun for high level appellate work, sure, do the COA, but I kinda don't get that impression (and I don't think it's the kind of thing where it makes sense to say, "but they might decide they want appellate work later, so they need the COA!" At a certain point you need to shit or get off the pot, and pursue the path you actually want rather than trying to keep every hypothetical option open for the future).

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 12, 2021 2:26 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 12, 2021 2:10 pm

I disagree with the pp. I would still do the clerkship even if the gov job is your dream job. Dreams change either because preferences change or life circumstances intervene, and the clerkship would be a bonus to help make a switch down the line. Plus, if that agency was hiring once, they will hire again. Maybe not directly out the clerkship, but within a reasonable number of years. And if you weren't competitive for your district clerkship but landed it anyways, it sounds like your chances of landing another COA clerkship might be more limited, and you age out of clerking in a way that is not applicable to gov jobs. At some point it is true that we all need to accept narrower options, but I don't know that you are there yet.

This is wrong on pretty much every level possible. First, dreams do not just change on a dime unless there is some horrific (and rare) change in circumstances or you are young/naive/unable to assess a situation accurately. Second, "reasonable number of years" in some cases is 10+ depending on the agency/division. Third, you keep pushing the COA without actually explaining why it is in any way better than landing the job that is the end goal and available now.

OK, this is pp and I will respond. Dreams do change. Not sure how old you are or how much experience you have, but it is pretty common for people to think they would really love to do x job or be in x agency and realize, once they're there, that the work/lifestyle/environment/whatever it is isn't what they thought and that they actually would prefer to do something else. I'm not saying people regularly think that the IRS is their dream agency and then poof realize they actually want to be at the EPA or a line prosecutor in a rural community -- changes are more subtle than that but they do happen and not infrequently. Life circumstances also change. Again, not sure how old or experienced you are, but if you are married or get married, your spouse may need to move cities for a job or you/your spouse may have a family circumstance arise (need to care for aging parents, for example, which is neither horrific nor rare, etc.) where you need to move, and so having a credential that allows you to move more easily can be helpful down the line. If this is truly an agency where jobs open up less than once a decade, then that would make me reconsider, but it seems unlikely that such unicorn positions would be attainable by someone just recently out of law school, and generally I think that having a COA clerkship is a helpful thing to have in your back pocket for the future because, especially DC/2/9, it is a well-recognized and portable credential that translates into better access to a range of positions for a number of years into the future.

At least in my experience, only in snobbiest legal circles would anyone care at all about the difference between an SDNY clerkship and 2nd Circuit clerkship for someone with 5, much less 10+, years of experience. Sure, the fancy clerkship makes you stand out, especially if your school/honors don’t. But, at the end of the day, if you’re hiring an experienced lawyer to do something similar to the job they’ve been doing for the last 5+ years, the fine distinctions in clerkship prestige are pretty irrelevant.

Elston Gunn wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 12, 2021 3:01 pm

At least in my experience, only in snobbiest legal circles would anyone care at all about the difference between an SDNY clerkship and 2nd Circuit clerkship for someone with 5, much less 10+, years of experience. Sure, the fancy clerkship makes you stand out, especially if your school/honors don’t. But, at the end of the day, if you’re hiring an experienced lawyer to do something similar to the job they’ve been doing for the last 5+ years, the fine distinctions in clerkship prestige are pretty irrelevant.

Yeah, absolutely agree with this.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 12, 2021 2:52 pm

OK, this is pp and I will respond. Dreams do change. Not sure how old you are or how much experience you have, but it is pretty common for people to think they would really love to do x job or be in x agency and realize, once they're there, that the work/lifestyle/environment/whatever it is isn't what they thought and that they actually would prefer to do something else.

Person you are responding to. I am old enough and have enough experience working (including a career change to law) to know that a lot of people are capable of doing research on jobs. Plus, there is at least as much chance that the dream job is the dream job, in which case there is no reason to postpone it.

I think that having a COA clerkship is a helpful thing to have in your back pocket for the future because, especially DC/2/9, it is a well-recognized and portable credential that translates into better access to a range of positions for a number of years into the future.

This reads like a 1L take. What jobs--specific jobs--are accessible to COA clerks that are not accessible to prestige district courts? You say "better access," but I think that is bullshit, so go ahead and back it up. Also, if OP is even considering not taking the clerkship, it is reasonable to assume OP is not seriously considering any of those incredibly rare jobs.

OP here. Thanks again for the feedback. To add, I've been trying to set myself up for this BigFed gig since even before I attended law school and have pursued all the opportunities/externships/classes reflecting that interest for the last 10 years. The focus on the dream has been consistent.

And no, I am not looking into SG's office, but I do recognize the portability value of a 2/9/DC clerkship as well as the fact that it was a reach for me.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 12, 2021 8:42 pm

OP here. Thanks again for the feedback. To add, I've been trying to set myself up for this BigFed gig since even before I attended law school and have pursued all the opportunities/externships/classes reflecting that interest for the last 10 years. The focus on the dream has been consistent.

Why are you hesitating? What is the CoA clerkship giving you, in your mind? Serious question--knowing what is pulling you in each direction would make it easier to give you tailored advice.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 12, 2021 8:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 12, 2021 8:42 pm

OP here. Thanks again for the feedback. To add, I've been trying to set myself up for this BigFed gig since even before I attended law school and have pursued all the opportunities/externships/classes reflecting that interest for the last 10 years. The focus on the dream has been consistent.

Why are you hesitating? What is the CoA clerkship giving you, in your mind? Serious question--knowing what is pulling you in each direction would make it easier to give you tailored advice.

Most practically, the COA clerkship gives me the career flexibility in the small chance I need/want to go back to private sector (the six-digit student loans are still real). I also enjoy clerking as a general matter and this would obviously offer a different perspective than my current district court clerkship. The COA clerkship is also in my preferred location, whereas the Fed gig is not. Lastly, and the least important reason, is that everyone, including my school, wrote me off when it came to clerkships, so I'm big enough to admit it's a pride thing and I wouldn't want to squander this opportunity.

Take the job you want.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 12, 2021 9:03 pm

Most practically, the COA clerkship gives me the career flexibility in the small chance I need/want to go back to private sector (the six-digit student loans are still real).

The CoA doesn't make you marginally more competitive to return the private sector; it just kicks that decision down the road another 12 months.

I also enjoy clerking as a general matter and this would obviously offer a different perspective than my current district court clerkship. The COA clerkship is also in my preferred location, whereas the Fed gig is not.

These are at least colorable reasons, but don't really stack up next to your terminal goal career placement IMO.

Lastly, and the least important reason, is that everyone, including my school, wrote me off when it came to clerkships, so I'm big enough to admit it's a pride thing and I wouldn't want to squander this opportunity.

Fuck 'em. Doing the clerkship to prove the haterz wrong is the career equivalent of sleeping with your high-school bully's spouse. More likely to deepen the neurosis than cure it.

I wish people would stop saying "especially 2/9/DC." Those circuits aren't magic - they're competitive *to get* b/c they include major cities where a lot of lawyers want to live and they probably have a fair concentration of feeders/prominent judges. But to the extent they're going to open doors that any other clerkship wouldn't, that's going to be based on the judge (feeder? semi-feeder? just super connected in your preferred field) rather than the circuit number.

That's not to say that a COA can't open doors, just that 2/9/DC don't magically open more doors than the other circuits, even if a given judge might. (I get the pride thing, OP, because those circuits often are more sought after by applicants so it's a lot of competition. But I don't think that translates into increased exit options.)

Wrt the COA being in your preferred location - are there realistic fedgov options in that location? Or would you clerk then have to go elsewhere for a fedgov gig? Or were you hoping to go fedgov and then maybe change offices to your preferred location?

Also, would still love to see an answer to this:

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 12, 2021 8:13 pm

What jobs--specific jobs--are accessible to COA clerks that are not accessible to prestige district courts?

Besides gunning for appellate jobs, which may be what the OP wants to do, of course.

Finally, OP, I find your concern about your credentials/need to prove yourself interesting. Getting the kind of prestige clerkship you have now usually signals pretty strong credentials, and you say that your law school/TLS would have laughed at the prospect of you getting this, but...you did. And now you've interviewed for these other gigs. So you clearly have something going for that makes you a pretty strong candidate right now.

ETA: Agree with LSAT Airbender's post.

nixy wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 12, 2021 9:21 pm

Wrt the COA being in your preferred location - are there realistic fedgov options in that location? Or would you clerk then have to go elsewhere for a fedgov gig? Or were you hoping to go fedgov and then maybe change offices to your preferred location?

Yes, the fedgov gig has an office in my preferred location, but I think it's fair to say that the openings in that location are even more rare than openings agency-wide (it did not have an opening this time around, nor have I seen any in the last year, as I've been monitoring, perhaps I missed it). And yes, I was hoping to go into this fedgov gig then change offices to my preferred location, if and when there ever was an opening.

The Lsat Airbender wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 12, 2021 9:13 pm

Lastly, and the least important reason, is that everyone, including my school, wrote me off when it came to clerkships, so I'm big enough to admit it's a pride thing and I wouldn't want to squander this opportunity.

Fuck 'em. Doing the clerkship to prove the haterz wrong is the career equivalent of sleeping with your high-school bully's spouse. More likely to deepen the neurosis than cure it.

More than fair point. A pretty weak justification, and one I am trying to intentionally not hang my hat on.

nixy wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 12, 2021 9:21 pm

Finally, OP, I find your concern about your credentials/need to prove yourself interesting. Getting the kind of prestige clerkship you have now usually signals pretty strong credentials, and you say that your law school/TLS would have laughed at the prospect of you getting this, but...you did. And now you've interviewed for these other gigs. So you clearly have something going for that makes you a pretty strong candidate right now.

It's the imposter syndrome and also my law school and own ranking, which I can't change. Frankly, I didn't know how to do law school at the time (which my transcript shows), but I've worked hard after graduating, and I think I make up for those metrics with strong recommendations once I got the hang of how to lawyer.