Shutts & Bowen Forum

[Anonymous User]

Received a 3L offer from Shutts and am weighing it against another offer. The firm told me what my starting salary would be ($150k-$160k), but didn't give me any info on raises.

Can anyone speak to the firm's pay structure, bonuses, culture, etc.?

[Anonymous User]

Florida is really like three states. There is North, Central, and South Florida. As such, a lot of this is very geographic focused. Maybe you can provide a few cities as examples. A lot of my answers will give a quick High (H), Medium (M), or Low (L) in regards to what I think the average/median T14 graduate should be looking at. I'lll try and break it down by North (NF), Central (CF), and South Florida (SF).

Prestige:
In the realm of Florida biglaw its in the 'small-biglaw' category. Think Akerman, Gunster, Bilzin. All of these firms pretend to be "biglaw" for how they want to be perceived in the legal community and act accordingly. However, the majority of graduates are from great local schools mostly--not T14.

NF: H, why: really hard to land law firms here vs. FSU/Florida native Top 1%.
CF: H, why: Same as above, add like the Top .5% of Stetson, but in a place like Tampa or Orlando (especially) a Shutts offer is a ticket to being in the top 5% of the legal community.
SF: M, why: You are now getting compared against real Biglaw. Its a native Florida firm, but for the future outlook with firms like K&E, etc eyeing Florida....ooh boy. Maybe Shutts will merge.


Compensation
Its all smoke and mirrors. But, 140/150 is weak unless you're in Tallahassee or Orlando. Gunster/Akerman are all in the 170-190ish ranges now with the recent Biglaw jump. Maybe Shutts is going to do the same.

HOWEVER, the cost of living is great. So, maybe 140/150 is still worth it. Thats like 205K in NY/SF/Chicago. And you can buy a 6 bedroom house for 500K.

NF: H
CF: M, Most 'small biglaw firms' are much higher, unless you are looking at Foley/Carlton/H&K in Tampa for comparison, 150K is still in the top of the market.
SF: L (140 is eh in SF with COL)

Bonus/Perks
Decent, but not like what you read for the rest of Biglaw. No ubers/food credits/day care/MBDRoths/unique credits.

Bonuses are in the 7K-10K range each year for hitting hours. Sometimes a small 5K kicker if you go over 2300 or so. Not worth it. Don't expect a scaled version of Cravath bonuses. It's also black box. So if you piss off a partner or have a slow year--no bonus. They control this MUCH more.

But, they do have some bonus. So think your salary + 10k each year.

Work
It's Florida Small-Biglaw. There will be some big clients, but the really sophisticated work gets farmed out to the really top shops. Expect to sort of stagnate in your growth. That sort of obsolescence is a slow, silent, painful death to your book of business and skills. Representing Winn-Dixie in an acquisition of a shopping center will take a LOT of brainpower, dont get me wrong. But, it just doesn't really 'make' your resume or advance skills that can land you an in-house job.

The largest practice areas will be Florida State focused Litigation / Florida real estate.

[axolawtl]

Florida is really like three states. There is North, Central, and South Florida. As such, a lot of this is very geographic focused. Maybe you can provide a few cities as examples. A lot of my answers will give a quick High (H), Medium (M), or Low (L) in regards to what I think the average/median T14 graduate should be looking at. I'lll try and break it down by North (NF), Central (CF), and South Florida (SF).

Prestige:
In the realm of Florida biglaw its in the 'small-biglaw' category. Think Akerman, Gunster, Bilzin. All of these firms pretend to be "biglaw" for how they want to be perceived in the legal community and act accordingly. However, the majority of graduates are from great local schools mostly--not T14.

NF: H, why: really hard to land law firms here vs. FSU/Florida native Top 1%.
CF: H, why: Same as above, add like the Top .5% of Stetson, but in a place like Tampa or Orlando (especially) a Shutts offer is a ticket to being in the top 5% of the legal community.
SF: M, why: You are now getting compared against real Biglaw. Its a native Florida firm, but for the future outlook with firms like K&E, etc eyeing Florida....ooh boy. Maybe Shutts will merge.


Compensation
Its all smoke and mirrors. But, 140/150 is weak unless you're in Tallahassee or Orlando. Gunster/Akerman are all in the 170-190ish ranges now with the recent Biglaw jump. Maybe Shutts is going to do the same.

HOWEVER, the cost of living is great. So, maybe 140/150 is still worth it. Thats like 205K in NY/SF/Chicago. And you can buy a 6 bedroom house for 500K.

NF: H
CF: M, Most 'small biglaw firms' are much higher, unless you are looking at Foley/Carlton/H&K in Tampa for comparison, 150K is still in the top of the market.
SF: L (140 is eh in SF with COL)

Bonus/Perks
Decent, but not like what you read for the rest of Biglaw. No ubers/food credits/day care/MBDRoths/unique credits.

Bonuses are in the 7K-10K range each year for hitting hours. Sometimes a small 5K kicker if you go over 2300 or so. Not worth it. Don't expect a scaled version of Cravath bonuses. It's also black box. So if you piss off a partner or have a slow year--no bonus. They control this MUCH more.

But, they do have some bonus. So think your salary + 10k each year.

Work
It's Florida Small-Biglaw. There will be some big clients, but the really sophisticated work gets farmed out to the really top shops. Expect to sort of stagnate in your growth. That sort of obsolescence is a slow, silent, painful death to your book of business and skills. Representing Winn-Dixie in an acquisition of a shopping center will take a LOT of brainpower, dont get me wrong. But, it just doesn't really 'make' your resume or advance skills that can land you an in-house job.

The largest practice areas will be Florida State focused Litigation / Florida real estate.

I'm not OP, but this is one of the most detailed posts I've seen on TLS about the Florida market. I'm currently deciding on an offer at a Florida firm; if you're willing to PM me, I'd really appreciate your insight.

[Anonymous User]

I'm not OP, but this is one of the most detailed posts I've seen on TLS about the Florida market. I'm currently deciding on an offer at a Florida firm; if you're willing to PM me, I'd really appreciate your insight.

What are your questions? I can help build out the recent repository of information on Florida. It's really lacking here. But, it's going to be a market of interest especially in the next ten years. Lots of businesses moving to the area.

Problem is, those businesses bring with them some of the misconceptions of 'quality' that has them paying $1000.00 an hour to a 6th year corporate associate in NYC. A lot of the 'been there, done that' talent/knowledge is trapped in those big firms (Vault ranked). There is a shift though, where a lot of non-equity partners are departing for Florida. In the firm I worked at (small-biglaw) we had partners (non-equity, but still) from 4 or 5 different Vault firms depart for our firm in Florida. Why? 400K-600k as a 10y-15y non-equity partner is worth like $1.2 - 1.7 million and really translates for things like....being able to buy a 5 bedroom house on the water for 5% of what it would cost in SF. It's reaaaallly wild.

The hours are the silliest thing. I didnt cover it so I will do it now:

Hours worked--expectations/reality

You will work 1900-2200 hours. DO NOT BELIEVE THE LIES RECRUITING/MARKETING/ASSOCIATES TELL YOU.

If you are a Vault firm, expect to be worked JUST as hard as some of the bigger offices. There was a myth (and is still) that going to these offices has been laid back. Sure, when you weren't getting comped at 205K. Now, there is a large focus on productivity for salaries since it isn't 'benchmarked'. So, if you go to a Vault firm, expect to be on-call 24hrs and expect to put in the 1900-2200 hr expectation. Other posts have covered this, but working from 6am to 1am and only billing 9hrs and not having a 'schedule' for your life is the MOST intrusive. Texts like "sorry husband, I can't make it to the game..sorry for just telling you--we have to file this deposition tonight" are the true life-suck moments. I am fine with working 12 hour days, from 8am to 8pm. But, its when you get your time stolen is where it hurts.

Everyone focuses on billables. DON'T DO THAT. ASK questions during informational (not screener/cb interviews, because those are performative) interviews about "dude, have often do you have to work on weekends? and I have a kid, will this work??" to the chill associate who isn't doing recruiting to gauge their feedback. Just assume that the schedule is ALL over the place rather than respectful. In my small-biglaw firm it was also group dependent. Some partners are super chill.

North: Jacksonville- very kind country people. Its like South Georgia really. The hours will be long, but way more chill than elsewhere. As an associate you actually have AND SHOULD be networking early in your career. Sorry, its mostly small-biglaw here.

Central:
1. Small-Biglaw: Will work with generally nice people. It's a bit more mid-western vibe in North and Central Florida. Like, they all go to their kids baseball games, have fishing boats, and you will be home with family before 6pm probably every day. But, you'll put in 5-6 hours on the weekend (self-imposed) and a couple at night.

2. Biglaw: GT, Carlton, and Foley get a rep (rightfully) for being sweatshops. But, there are pockets of good. I think that its because the national offices view them as red-headed stepchildren who 'have it good'. H&K is awesome, I would be so happy if you got it.

South:
All firms in the 150K+ range work the same hours as Biglaw. But, without the pay. Also, the latinx culture is HUGE. Cafecito (cuban coffee) coming around the office in a tray pushed by a secretary at 2pm is a norm. And the gringo's are all hustlers. It's the land of people who got SUPER rich selling swamp land to northerners.

Also, its wild. The whole West was conquered before people looked south into the abysmal swamp muckland and said "yeah, fuck it" and moved down here. So, you get generations of inbreeding with alligators, meth-heads, super sexy cubans, farmers, and people who hustle to form this hodge-podge of florida. It's FANTASTIC.

[Anonymous User]

Can anyone speak to general range for pay at Shutts? My understanding is it’s a black box, but I’d like to know:

1. 1st year salary (Central FL offices versus SoFla)?

2. Expected bonus ranges (I’ve heard 2000 hours is the trigger for bigger bonuses, is this true?)?

3. Expected mid-level comp (3-6 years)?

4. Is comp practice-group dependent?

5. Typical raise amounts?

6. Any recent market adjustment measures?

Any data points are appreciated. Would love to hear about expected comp for a mid-level lateral associate outside Miami.