T14 failed OCI -> consulting, AMA Forum

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T14 failed OCI -> consulting, AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:36 pm

This probably belongs in the alternative careers sub but no one posts there. Not sure my path is repeatable so might be more interesting than useful. I just realized it's been ten years since I graduated law school and got nostalgic and writing this has been cathartic.

I was interested in law school in the 2000s boom where median T14 guaranteed biglaw. I got top ~30% at MVP but had the fortune of being in the class of 2011, where the great recession hit after we started school. I got biglaw callbacks up to V20? But I did a terrible job explaining why the firm and practice areas were good fits for me. Our career services was more like, "don't be too competitive," "you don't really need to do much interview prep," "everyone got jobs even during the dot com bust." I relied on intel from the forums to say certain firms extended offers to everyone with a callback, but that didn't apply that year. One of the partners even made up bullshit reasons in his first round form for why I was interested in derivatives to help me out. The problem was he never told me about it and when an associate asked me about it I was like WTF?

In 2010 and 2011, the law market was pretty dead so I just went back to business. I had an undergraduate business degree and some work experience. I bounced around a bit and ended up at a consulting firm, though not MBB. Now, I'm probably in a comparable position as the non-equity partners at Kirkland, except we don't have a finite time to make equity partner.

Generally my hours are 45-60 hours a week, and travel time counts as billable. Rarely work weekends. Base and bonus is maybe ~$300K. Have had 10-15% total comp increases annually on average and expect that until I top out at my level.

Partner is probably available if I want it, but the firm has some fucked up kiss the ring culture. Also you have to deal with shit like if the project team messes up, you have to fix it and convince the client to pay you. Not sure it's worth the extra money.

After law school, I felt like a failure and avoided all classmates and alumni gatherings. I was bitter I spent so much time and money and didn't have anything to show for it. Now, I'm older and my debt has been paid off for years, so I don't really care anymore.

I have to say the JD skills seem more important as I get more senior. Listening to people's arguments and being able to counter them quickly like being a 1L gets you pretty far. A lot of people say random shit to get people to go away, and they get annoyed when I remember everything they say and use their reasons against them later or point out when they're contradictory. Many of my coworkers are engineering types who have poor communication skills.

I do miss how JDs have a much more open mind. They may disagree with you, but they at least understand you. MBAs just try to talk over you. That being said, some JDs are terrible at math. I even remember being dumbfounded at accounting for lawyers where people were struggling with basic stuff like debits and credits, which are taught to TTT undergrad business students as sophomores with no issues.

There are a lot fewer consulting firms than V100 firms so I will be cryptic on what I actually do. But if I can be of help to anyone, happy to help. I wish I could say it gets better for everyone who struck out at OCI, but some others from my MVP never recovered and have had shitty jobs the whole time.

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Re: T14 failed OCI -> consulting, AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:37 pm

Thanks for doing this. I was generally under the vague impression that consulting paid better? $300k all in for 45-60 hours seems pretty low -- that is comparable to a 2nd/3rd year biglaw associate money.

What is the gap in pay between your gig and the Big Three?

Are there non-Big Three places that are more lifestyle focused and much closer to 40 hours than 60?

Money aside, do you enjoy what you do / is it intellectually fulfilling? As a corporate associate, I've always imagined that consulting would involve more creativity and "real" intelligence than Control-F ing and Control-V/Cing registration statements or merger agreements from precedents. Not sure how correct my assumption is.

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nahumya

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Re: T14 failed OCI -> consulting, AMA

Post by nahumya » Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:45 pm

Can you describe the skillset that you have gained in consulting? What would be the optimal client that could really use your services?

Ultramar vistas

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Re: T14 failed OCI -> consulting, AMA

Post by Ultramar vistas » Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:00 pm

Now, I'm probably in a comparable position as the non-equity partners at Kirkland, except we don't have a finite time to make equity partner … Base and bonus is maybe ~$300K. Have had 10-15% total comp increases annually on average and expect that until I top out at my level.
7th and 8th year associates / junior K&E NSPs will make close to $500k this year. More senior NSPs even more. It’s also not a limited time to make equity at Kirkland.

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Re: T14 failed OCI -> consulting, AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:06 pm

Ultramar vistas wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:00 pm
Now, I'm probably in a comparable position as the non-equity partners at Kirkland, except we don't have a finite time to make equity partner … Base and bonus is maybe ~$300K. Have had 10-15% total comp increases annually on average and expect that until I top out at my level.
7th and 8th year associates / junior K&E NSPs will make close to $500k this year. More senior NSPs even more. It’s also not a limited time to make equity at Kirkland.
I think Kirkland NSPs will make *significantly* more than $500k this year. The market for a sixth-year elsewhere is $330k base plus $60k COVID bonus and ~$100k end of year bonus (for "only" 2000 hours). At the levels that the typical Kirkland person is billing this year, they may be getting multiples of $100k at year-end.

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kse410

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Re: T14 failed OCI -> consulting, AMA

Post by kse410 » Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:37 pm
Thanks for doing this. I was generally under the vague impression that consulting paid better? $300k all in for 45-60 hours seems pretty low -- that is comparable to a 2nd/3rd year biglaw associate money.

What is the gap in pay between your gig and the Big Three?

Are there non-Big Three places that are more lifestyle focused and much closer to 40 hours than 60?

Money aside, do you enjoy what you do / is it intellectually fulfilling? As a corporate associate, I've always imagined that consulting would involve more creativity and "real" intelligence than Control-F ing and Control-V/Cing registration statements or merger agreements from precedents. Not sure how correct my assumption is.
I'm not really an expert on other firms hours and pay. I would guess the top strategy firms pay more but have more intense up-or-out. My situation is probably more comparable to a mid-size law firm.

I think there might be a disconnect with hours worked versus hours billed. The 60 hours a week does not equate to 3000 billables. The target is about ~2000 hours worked and this includes travel time, which is probably 6-10 hours a week. If your performance is good you're probably okay around 1700-1800. It's not unusual to get 2-4 weeks totally off between projects.

Another thing to remember is "consulting" is so broad it encompasses everything from IT implementation to market growth. I think there is more creativity because you're faced with a business problem and have to show through data how to solve it. This can be industry data, company data, whatever. Sometimes there are frameworks you can re-use but often the exact situation you're solving is a little different or the data availability is not good enough to really make a cogent case. It can be tough because sometimes you're trying to tell someone with 30 years in the industry they're running their business incorrectly.

kse410

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Re: T14 failed OCI -> consulting, AMA

Post by kse410 » Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:29 pm

nahumya wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:45 pm
Can you describe the skillset that you have gained in consulting? What would be the optimal client that could really use your services?
There are hard skills and soft skills.

For hard skills, most people will eventually specialize in some combination of an industry vertical (auto, oil & gas, media) or a function (marketing/growth, supply chain, procurement). It's the same functions any business has. The main value add is you go through many more high intensity projects in a shorter amount of time that your five years gives you much more effective experience than someone just working in industry for a longer period of time. Also companies benefit from your perspective where you've seen how the function works in a variety of companies and sometimes industries, whereas sometimes the client operates in a vacuum and does things just because that's the way it's always been done.

For soft skills, a lot of it is how to effect change in an organization. It's understanding each of the stakeholder interests and trying to convince them to join your side. Someone might have an axe to grind and will go against the incumbent leadership, some people are persuaded by objective data and arguments, and anything in between. Some people just won't change and you have to find a way to go around them. Then if you're a partner, you need to convince the stakeholders to buy more work.

Finally, you need to synthesize all your findings and proposed course of action into something cogent for the right audience. It needs enough detail to satisfy on-the-ground subject matter experts but high enough for a board or CEO to understand.

kse410

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Re: T14 failed OCI -> consulting, AMA

Post by kse410 » Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:32 pm

Ultramar vistas wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:00 pm
Now, I'm probably in a comparable position as the non-equity partners at Kirkland, except we don't have a finite time to make equity partner … Base and bonus is maybe ~$300K. Have had 10-15% total comp increases annually on average and expect that until I top out at my level.
7th and 8th year associates / junior K&E NSPs will make close to $500k this year. More senior NSPs even more. It’s also not a limited time to make equity at Kirkland.
I meant more in function in the work environment versus pay. You're on the verge but don't have any type of equity interest.

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Re: T14 failed OCI -> consulting, AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:42 pm

double post - see below
Last edited by Anonymous User on Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:16 am, edited 2 times in total.

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2020throwaway

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Re: T14 failed OCI -> consulting, AMA

Post by 2020throwaway » Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:15 am

Whoops - the below post is me :D

Do you mind pm'ing me? T14 grad, interested in making the leap to consulting/business roles. Considering b school
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:36 pm
This probably belongs in the alternative careers sub but no one posts there. Not sure my path is repeatable so might be more interesting than useful. I just realized it's been ten years since I graduated law school and got nostalgic and writing this has been cathartic.

I was interested in law school in the 2000s boom where median T14 guaranteed biglaw. I got top ~30% at MVP but had the fortune of being in the class of 2011, where the great recession hit after we started school. I got biglaw callbacks up to V20? But I did a terrible job explaining why the firm and practice areas were good fits for me. Our career services was more like, "don't be too competitive," "you don't really need to do much interview prep," "everyone got jobs even during the dot com bust." I relied on intel from the forums to say certain firms extended offers to everyone with a callback, but that didn't apply that year. One of the partners even made up bullshit reasons in his first round form for why I was interested in derivatives to help me out. The problem was he never told me about it and when an associate asked me about it I was like WTF?

In 2010 and 2011, the law market was pretty dead so I just went back to business. I had an undergraduate business degree and some work experience. I bounced around a bit and ended up at a consulting firm, though not MBB. Now, I'm probably in a comparable position as the non-equity partners at Kirkland, except we don't have a finite time to make equity partner.

Generally my hours are 45-60 hours a week, and travel time counts as billable. Rarely work weekends. Base and bonus is maybe ~$300K. Have had 10-15% total comp increases annually on average and expect that until I top out at my level.

Partner is probably available if I want it, but the firm has some fucked up kiss the ring culture. Also you have to deal with shit like if the project team messes up, you have to fix it and convince the client to pay you. Not sure it's worth the extra money.

After law school, I felt like a failure and avoided all classmates and alumni gatherings. I was bitter I spent so much time and money and didn't have anything to show for it. Now, I'm older and my debt has been paid off for years, so I don't really care anymore.

I have to say the JD skills seem more important as I get more senior. Listening to people's arguments and being able to counter them quickly like being a 1L gets you pretty far. A lot of people say random shit to get people to go away, and they get annoyed when I remember everything they say and use their reasons against them later or point out when they're contradictory. Many of my coworkers are engineering types who have poor communication skills.

I do miss how JDs have a much more open mind. They may disagree with you, but they at least understand you. MBAs just try to talk over you. That being said, some JDs are terrible at math. I even remember being dumbfounded at accounting for lawyers where people were struggling with basic stuff like debits and credits, which are taught to TTT undergrad business students as sophomores with no issues.

There are a lot fewer consulting firms than V100 firms so I will be cryptic on what I actually do. But if I can be of help to anyone, happy to help. I wish I could say it gets better for everyone who struck out at OCI, but some others from my MVP never recovered and have had shitty jobs the whole time.
[/quote]

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Re: T14 failed OCI -> consulting, AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:54 am

kse410 wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:29 pm
nahumya wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:45 pm
Can you describe the skillset that you have gained in consulting? What would be the optimal client that could really use your services?
There are hard skills and soft skills.

For hard skills, most people will eventually specialize in some combination of an industry vertical (auto, oil & gas, media) or a function (marketing/growth, supply chain, procurement). It's the same functions any business has. The main value add is you go through many more high intensity projects in a shorter amount of time that your five years gives you much more effective experience than someone just working in industry for a longer period of time. Also companies benefit from your perspective where you've seen how the function works in a variety of companies and sometimes industries, whereas sometimes the client operates in a vacuum and does things just because that's the way it's always been done.

For soft skills, a lot of it is how to effect change in an organization. It's understanding each of the stakeholder interests and trying to convince them to join your side. Someone might have an axe to grind and will go against the incumbent leadership, some people are persuaded by objective data and arguments, and anything in between. Some people just won't change and you have to find a way to go around them. Then if you're a partner, you need to convince the stakeholders to buy more work.

Finally, you need to synthesize all your findings and proposed course of action into something cogent for the right audience. It needs enough detail to satisfy on-the-ground subject matter experts but high enough for a board or CEO to understand.
Translation, you've learned how to speak like a newly-minted MBA, congratulations!

CanadianWolf

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Re: T14 failed OCI -> consulting, AMA

Post by CanadianWolf » Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:28 pm

Thank you for starting this thread & sharing your knowledge & experience.

Can you give an estimated breakdown of the percentage of consultants by degree (engineering, u/g business, JD, JD/MBA, MBA, CPA, etc) ?

Anonymous User
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Re: T14 failed OCI -> consulting, AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Oct 26, 2021 1:00 pm

Are you in management consulting?

I know you’re not MBB but unless I’m missing something, your compensation of 300k 10 years post-graduation doesn’t track with management consulting payscale, even somewhere like Deloitte S&O or Accenture… Unless you started off at pre-MBA levels as analyst?

Anonymous User
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Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: T14 failed OCI -> consulting, AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Oct 26, 2021 5:28 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:36 pm
This probably belongs in the alternative careers sub but no one posts there. Not sure my path is repeatable so might be more interesting than useful. I just realized it's been ten years since I graduated law school and got nostalgic and writing this has been cathartic.

I was interested in law school in the 2000s boom where median T14 guaranteed biglaw. I got top ~30% at MVP but had the fortune of being in the class of 2011, where the great recession hit after we started school. I got biglaw callbacks up to V20? But I did a terrible job explaining why the firm and practice areas were good fits for me. Our career services was more like, "don't be too competitive," "you don't really need to do much interview prep," "everyone got jobs even during the dot com bust." I relied on intel from the forums to say certain firms extended offers to everyone with a callback, but that didn't apply that year. One of the partners even made up bullshit reasons in his first round form for why I was interested in derivatives to help me out. The problem was he never told me about it and when an associate asked me about it I was like WTF?

In 2010 and 2011, the law market was pretty dead so I just went back to business. I had an undergraduate business degree and some work experience. I bounced around a bit and ended up at a consulting firm, though not MBB. Now, I'm probably in a comparable position as the non-equity partners at Kirkland, except we don't have a finite time to make equity partner.

Generally my hours are 45-60 hours a week, and travel time counts as billable. Rarely work weekends. Base and bonus is maybe ~$300K. Have had 10-15% total comp increases annually on average and expect that until I top out at my level.

Partner is probably available if I want it, but the firm has some fucked up kiss the ring culture. Also you have to deal with shit like if the project team messes up, you have to fix it and convince the client to pay you. Not sure it's worth the extra money.

After law school, I felt like a failure and avoided all classmates and alumni gatherings. I was bitter I spent so much time and money and didn't have anything to show for it. Now, I'm older and my debt has been paid off for years, so I don't really care anymore.

I have to say the JD skills seem more important as I get more senior. Listening to people's arguments and being able to counter them quickly like being a 1L gets you pretty far. A lot of people say random shit to get people to go away, and they get annoyed when I remember everything they say and use their reasons against them later or point out when they're contradictory. Many of my coworkers are engineering types who have poor communication skills.

I do miss how JDs have a much more open mind. They may disagree with you, but they at least understand you. MBAs just try to talk over you. That being said, some JDs are terrible at math. I even remember being dumbfounded at accounting for lawyers where people were struggling with basic stuff like debits and credits, which are taught to TTT undergrad business students as sophomores with no issues.

There are a lot fewer consulting firms than V100 firms so I will be cryptic on what I actually do. But if I can be of help to anyone, happy to help. I wish I could say it gets better for everyone who struck out at OCI, but some others from my MVP never recovered and have had shitty jobs the whole time.
I'm thinking about transitioning out of biglaw into management consulting. I've thought of a couple of ways to do this, but I wanted to know whether there are any biases against lawyers similar to those in IBanking (ie we suck with numbers, are overly detail oriented to the point of not being commercial, argumentative, can't pass the airplane test etc.)

If so, what are the best ways to counter against those negative biases either at the resume or interview stage. My general perception is that consulting is more open to former biglaw attorneys than finance, yet I still see more former associates in finance than I do in consulting. Of course, part of that issue is exposure and self-selection as I'm a finance associate, but I just want to gauge how difficult of a transition this would be.

Also, if it even exists, at what stage in an associate's career is one considered most "sought out after" for a consulting position? I'm a rising 4th year, and I can't tell if I'm too early, late or perfect for the transition.

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