How busy before you push back? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Curious on others thoughts/approaches on when you start pushing back/turning down work. When you're pacing for 200+ (knowing that inevitably some of the pushback won't be respected and you could still end up higher), 225+, more? Less?

Does your personal situation affect that? For example, now that I have 2 young kids, going past 200 hours is more difficult than it used to be even with just 1 kid because I have so many other personal responsibilities and frankly just like seeing my kids when they're awake, on weekends, helping with breakfast/bedtimes, etc.

Edit: I'm a midlevel in M&A.

[NoLongerALurker]

I started giving the "I mean I can stretch...sure, if you must" response at 175, the "I don't know, I'm really busy, let me check with some other partners I am working for [as in, "let me get those partners to call you to protect my time"] at 200," and "My plate is full" at like 220. Obviously there are times where the person staffing me just blows past my response anyway, but this approach has in general been very successful. Sometimes I feel bad because I turn down work at like 180 hours and then some other schmuck accepts the work when they're already billing 200, but I mean I hit my hours every year so I don't want to play this martyr "drown me daddy" game with staffing.

[Anonymous User]

Lit mid-level at a free market V10. I know I'm on the aggressive/shameless end of the spectrum of associates on this issue, but if I don't want to take on a new matter, I feel free to give the "no bandwidth" response if i'm annualizing at or above my firm's billable target.

[Anonymous User]

I don’t welcome new staffing if 1) I’m probably gonna bill 50 or more hours per the upcoming weeks on average or 2) I have a legitimate concern that if multiple things blew up I wouldn’t be able to do my job at an acceptable level.

It’s better to turn down work than to be stretched too thin and fucking up, but I’m also not at a firm where ppl bill like 2500 as a baseline expectation

[Anonymous User]

Curious on others thoughts/approaches on when you start pushing back/turning down work. When you're pacing for 200+ (knowing that inevitably some of the pushback won't be respected and you could still end up higher), 225+, more? Less?

Does your personal situation affect that? For example, now that I have 2 young kids, going past 200 hours is more difficult than it used to be even with just 1 kid because I have so many other personal responsibilities and frankly just like seeing my kids when they're awake, on weekends, helping with breakfast/bedtimes, etc.

Edit: I'm a midlevel in M&A.

What are you looking for from your firm? Do you want to make partner? Move to in house in a year or two? That's probably the biggest question here.

If you want to make partner, find out the average hours for those who made partner in your group and beat it. If you want to jump ship in a year, turning down work to stay as close to your annual minimum (assuming there is one) isn't going to get you fired. If you're somewhere in between (want to stick around for a long time but don't want to make partner), find out what the average hours are in your group and turn down work when you're tracking to exceed that.

FWIW I'm not in M&A, but the numbers for my V20 are 2500 for average new partner, 2100-2200 average depending on group, and 2000 annual minimum for bonus. I got the 2500 number by asking my partner mentor point blank at my annual review.

[Anonymous User]

FWIW I'm not in M&A, but the numbers for my V20 are 2500 for average new partner, 2100-2200 average depending on group, and 2000 annual minimum for bonus. I got the 2500 number by asking my partner mentor point blank at my annual review.

Interesting data points. In general terms, do you know if “partner track” associates bill consistently higher from the day they join the firm, or is it more like a dedicated push in the last couple years before coming up for partner?

[existentialcrisis]

FWIW I'm not in M&A, but the numbers for my V20 are 2500 for average new partner, 2100-2200 average depending on group, and 2000 annual minimum for bonus. I got the 2500 number by asking my partner mentor point blank at my annual review.

Interesting data points. In general terms, do you know if “partner track” associates bill consistently higher from the day they join the firm, or is it more like a dedicated push in the last couple years before coming up for partner?

It's probably more that they don't turn down work and that every partner wants to staff them on their deals because they know they're good.

I don't think you can really bill your way into partnership.

[Anonymous User]

FWIW I'm not in M&A, but the numbers for my V20 are 2500 for average new partner, 2100-2200 average depending on group, and 2000 annual minimum for bonus. I got the 2500 number by asking my partner mentor point blank at my annual review.

Interesting data points. In general terms, do you know if “partner track” associates bill consistently higher from the day they join the firm, or is it more like a dedicated push in the last couple years before coming up for partner?

It's probably more that they don't turn down work and that every partner wants to staff them on their deals because they know they're good.

I don't think you can really bill your way into partnership.

Guy who posted the numbers. I think it's a mix. Existentialcrisis is correct that these people are busier in part because they are in demand, but I've also been told that high hours are necessary (but not sufficient) to make partner because it shows how dedicated you are to the partnership. I think it's more that they get offered more interesting work and take it because they are motivated to be the best. More like a snowball effect. New partners in my group have also been absolutely crushed with work, so it may be a test to see if they can handle the extra responsibility. Billing that much also gives you exposure to more partners from whom you need support when you're up for partner.

It's definitely not the case that people are billing more just because they don't turn down work - I've spent the three years turning down work left and right and far exceeded 2500 each year. Even the worst associates could hit 2500 if they wanted.

As far as when "partner track" associates start billing a lot, I've been told they don't look back to your first few years. That said, those that make partner have been stars from day one, so I'm guessing they had excess hours from the start.

Again, all this is specific to my firm. However, I do think the advice on what numbers to hit based on your goals would translate well to other firms.

[DukeMountain]

Just want to post for visibility that 2500 is a psychotic number to bill. You can absolutely be a partner billing less, there are just so many other variables you can’t control that makes it difficult

[eastcoast_iub]

Billing a high number of hours is valuable insofar as it gives you exposure to a diverse array of matters and people, and top performers naturally tend to bill more because they are sought after. But being known as a grinder who racks up hours is the path to a miserable permanent high hour non-equity partner/counsel role. Building good relations with important clients and share partners is the key to getting on the path to a desirable long term role that doesn’t involve a life of paper pushing.

[Anonymous User]

Just want to post for visibility that 2500 is a psychotic number to bill. You can absolutely be a partner billing less, there are just so many other variables you can’t control that makes it difficult

I'm glad you feel that way - outside of the law it is objectively a ridiculous amount to work. But you can't possibly be of the mind that high hours like that aren't a key factor for at least some firms (mine included). Leave it to TLS to respond to someone with direct advice from a partner at one particular firm that a particular number of hours are required with the vague statement that "you can absolutely be a partner billing less." Sorry bud, not at my firm in my group.

But being known as a grinder who racks up hours is the path to a miserable permanent high hour non-equity partner/counsel role. Building good relations with important clients and share partners is the key to getting on the path to a desirable long term role that doesn’t involve a life of paper pushing.

No shit Sherlock - what part of "high hours are necessary (but not sufficient) to make partner" was not clear? The OP asked about how many hours to bill before saying no, not everything she/he has to do to make partner.

[eastcoast_iub]

Go F yourself. I wasn't even responding to you.

[Anonymous User]

Go F yourself. I wasn't even responding to you.

Then who were you responding to? Clearly not the OP, who was asking about when to say no and not how to make partner.

[Anonymous User]

I started giving the "I mean I can stretch...sure, if you must" response at 175, the "I don't know, I'm really busy, let me check with some other partners I am working for [as in, "let me get those partners to call you to protect my time"] at 200," and "My plate is full" at like 220. Obviously there are times where the person staffing me just blows past my response anyway, but this approach has in general been very successful.

This is more or less my approach as well. I wouldn't go so far as to say "very successful" as my annual numbers still manage to push 2300-2500 which is unpleasant, but it keeps it within the realm of what I feel is physically and mentally "doable" until I leave.

[Anonymous User]

For another data point, I am an income partner at a V100 firm (not NYC and not transactional) and my billable hours have always been in the 2000-2200 range. I don't think anyone in my partnership class billed over 2500 the year they made it.

[almostperfectt]

For another data point, I am an income partner at a V100 firm (not NYC and not transactional) and my billable hours have always been in the 2000-2200 range. I don't think anyone in my partnership class billed over 2500 the year they made it.

That's good to hear.

What do you personally think of two associates, all else equal, with one having 2000 hours a year and the other having 2300+ a year?

[ExpOriental]

For another data point, I am an income partner at a V100 firm (not NYC and not transactional) and my billable hours have always been in the 2000-2200 range. I don't think anyone in my partnership class billed over 2500 the year they made it.

That's good to hear.

What do you personally think of two associates, all else equal, with one having 2000 hours a year and the other having 2300+ a year?

lol this question

[Anonymous User]

For another data point, I am an income partner at a V100 firm (not NYC and not transactional) and my billable hours have always been in the 2000-2200 range. I don't think anyone in my partnership class billed over 2500 the year they made it.

That's good to hear.

What do you personally think of two associates, all else equal, with one having 2000 hours a year and the other having 2300+ a year?

I don't.

[Anonymous User]

For another data point, I am an income partner at a V100 firm (not NYC and not transactional) and my billable hours have always been in the 2000-2200 range. I don't think anyone in my partnership class billed over 2500 the year they made it.

I'm in a V5 NYC transactional practice, but I truly cannot imagine any associate coming in at under 2200 hours this year. I haven't had a sub-200 hour month since March. Coming in at 2000 would have to be a bad look when the rest of the team is absolutely getting crushed.

I think the median this year will be 2400-2500 with plenty of people being 2800+.

To get back on topic - I never turn down work when I'm below 200 for the month. 200-250 I think it depends on the circumstances - I'll turn down work if there's a major holiday in that month or I've had a rough couple weeks. I'll always turn down work when I'm at 250 mark or above. My work product nose dives in quality right around 230+ and I don't want a reputation of doing loads of work poorly.

[Anonymous User]

I'm in a V20 transactional practice, but have worked at a few other V50 firms.

Even in a busy transactional practice, there's really no reason to be taking on more than 50 hours a week. That annualizes out to 2400+ hrs a year, which is huge in any practice. If your firm is demanding you consistently take on more work than that then it's time to move to another firm.

Yes there are people who claim to regularly work 60-70 hour weeks. Those people are either lying or they will leave big law within 1-2 years because they're so burnt out. Even 50 a week is fairly unsustainable for prolonged periods of time.

Not all billables are equal though. Billing 60 hours a week to doc review is way easier than billing 60 a week negotiating material transaction documents. I think it's a lot easier for junior associates to take on oversized amounts of billables.

[Anonymous User]

Yes there are people who claim to regularly work 60-70 hour weeks. Those people are either lying or they will leave big law within 1-2 years because they're so burnt out. Even 50 a week is fairly unsustainable for prolonged periods of time.

I cannot begin to fathom the type of person (or people, this is a popular view on TLS) who is capable of making such an overgeneralization. Lying/malpractice is a serious accusation. Sure, some people do lie, and that's terrible. Anecdotally, I know ethical, hard working, and incredibly motivated attorneys (many of them partners) at my firm who routinely bill over 3000 hours, and I have the regular emails at 10pm, 12pm, 3am, 5am, etc. and throughout the weekend to prove it. They turn out massive amounts of high quality work product every week. And they hardly have a life, which is their choice.

Just because you're butt hurt that you can't keep up with them doesn't mean you need to insult everyone you envy.

edit: TLS

[Anonymous User]

Yes there are people who claim to regularly work 60-70 hour weeks. Those people are either lying or they will leave big law within 1-2 years because they're so burnt out. Even 50 a week is fairly unsustainable for prolonged periods of time.

I cannot begin to fathom the type of person (or people, this is a popular view on TLS) who is capable of making such an overgeneralization. Lying/malpractice is a serious accusation. Sure, some people do lie, and that's terrible. Anecdotally, I know ethical, hard working, and incredibly motivated attorneys (many of them partners) at my firm who routinely bill over 3000 hours, and I have the regular emails at 10pm, 12pm, 3am, 5am, etc. and throughout the weekend to prove it. They turn out massive amounts of high quality work product every week. And they hardly have a life, which is their choice.

Just because you're butt hurt that you can't keep up with them doesn't mean you need to insult everyone you envy.

edit: TLS

To add to this - 50 hours a week is pretty sustainable for long periods of time. Between 8-10 hours a day and a couple of hours each saturday and sunday morning. It's busy, but definitely not I will break down and cry busy.

[Anonymous User]

For another data point, I am an income partner at a V100 firm (not NYC and not transactional) and my billable hours have always been in the 2000-2200 range. I don't think anyone in my partnership class billed over 2500 the year they made it.

I'm in a V5 NYC transactional practice, but I truly cannot imagine any associate coming in at under 2200 hours this year. I haven't had a sub-200 hour month since March. Coming in at 2000 would have to be a bad look when the rest of the team is absolutely getting crushed.

I think the median this year will be 2400-2500 with plenty of people being 2800+.

To get back on topic - I never turn down work when I'm below 200 for the month. 200-250 I think it depends on the circumstances - I'll turn down work if there's a major holiday in that month or I've had a rough couple weeks. I'll always turn down work when I'm at 250 mark or above. My work product nose dives in quality right around 230+ and I don't want a reputation of doing loads of work poorly.

V5 transactional associate annualizing at 1900 right here, baby.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

I cannot begin to fathom the type of person (or people, this is a popular view on TLS) who is capable of making such an overgeneralization. Lying/malpractice is a serious accusation. Sure, some people do lie, and that's terrible. Anecdotally, I know ethical, hard working, and incredibly motivated attorneys (many of them partners) at my firm who routinely bill over 3000 hours, and I have the regular emails at 10pm, 12pm, 3am, 5am, etc. and throughout the weekend to prove it. They turn out massive amounts of high quality work product every week. And they hardly have a life, which is their choice.

Just because you're butt hurt that you can't keep up with them doesn't mean you need to insult everyone you envy.

edit: TLS

I for one am extremely butthurt. If only I had their stamina, then I could finally bill 3000, and have it all be "high quality work product," just like I always wanted since I was a little boy!

[Anonymous User]

Yes there are people who claim to regularly work 60-70 hour weeks. Those people are either lying or they will leave big law within 1-2 years because they're so burnt out. Even 50 a week is fairly unsustainable for prolonged periods of time.

I cannot begin to fathom the type of person (or people, this is a popular view on TLS) who is capable of making such an overgeneralization. Lying/malpractice is a serious accusation. Sure, some people do lie, and that's terrible. Anecdotally, I know ethical, hard working, and incredibly motivated attorneys (many of them partners) at my firm who routinely bill over 3000 hours, and I have the regular emails at 10pm, 12pm, 3am, 5am, etc. and throughout the weekend to prove it. They turn out massive amounts of high quality work product every week. And they hardly have a life, which is their choice.

Just because you're butt hurt that you can't keep up with them doesn't mean you need to insult everyone you envy.

edit: TLS

I really don't think anyone is envious of people that average over 8 billed hours every single day for years

it's just hard to believe. yeah, some people are built that way, but the grand majority (including me) are not. even in biglaw I would wager that most groups don't have a single person routinely billing above 3k once you get outside of top bankruptcy shops during crazy times, V10 corporate and elite lit boutiques.