Why don’t more biglaw attorneys refuse RTO? Forum

[Robot]

The hostility to work in the office on this forum is pretty over the top--just like some people prefer studying in the library at school, some people prefer working in the office. Not to mention that many biglaw associates live in small city center apartments without home offices, not suburban environments with space and a long commute. You're not socially superior because you prefer to work alone (how weird does that even sound?).

[Anonymous User]

The hostility to work in the office on this forum is pretty over the top--just like some people prefer studying in the library at school, some people prefer working in the office. Not to mention that many biglaw associates live in small city center apartments without home offices, not suburban environments with space and a long commute. You're not socially superior because you prefer to work alone (how weird does that even sound?).

You're working alone in either scenario for a typical big law associate and this comes off as a post by someone who either doesn't work in big law or who wants really toxic facetime out of their juniors.

Transactional corp work is basically all done with each person behind their own screen in different rooms, that was the case pre COVID and its the case now. Its basically do you want to spend your breaks with family and friends or alone in your office / with colleagues who I would hope you like less than your significant other and children.

This also totally misses the point. There is hostility because it is a mandated return to the office. It would be the same as if there was a mandate that everyone studies in the library instead of where they want (how weird does that even sound?); I don't think anyone cares if people can go in at their own option... that is how things have been for the past year. Its an objection to the mandated return.

[jbagelboy]

There are people refusing to come in at my v10 and the issue has thus far not been forced. Every week more people quit because of how generally unappealing the lifestyle is; there is no leverage to force people in. No one has been talked to about not showing up so far and no indication the issue will be forced in near issue. Plenty of us have been in 0 times in past 6 months. Firm will see immediate departures if forced and this is implicitly obvious.

Generally the most fearful associates have gone in and the associates who, to me, are the most boring and who I don't imagine have a lot going on in their personal lives. Also the true partner gunners eagerly have shown up to kiss ass. Frankly the RTO people are generally losers to me, but that reflects my value set. Like I see a lot of people here talking about 'oh people are going in 1-2 days a week'; that would be more than a lot of me and my peers. You just decide not to go in... and don't. No one is going to fire you in this market.

Anyone going in recognize its purely your choice.

lol shots fired - people who go into the office "are generally losers"

[Anonymous User]

This also totally misses the point. There is hostility because it is a mandated return to the office. It would be the same as if there was a mandate that everyone studies in the library instead of where they want (how weird does that even sound?); I don't think anyone cares if people can go in at their own option... that is how things have been for the past year. Its an objection to the mandated return.

This is it exactly. The question shouldn’t be “why do some people prefer to work at home/in the office.” It should be “why do the people who want to go in also need everyone else to go in?” Just give people a choice and flexibility.

[Anonymous User]

This also totally misses the point. There is hostility because it is a mandated return to the office. It would be the same as if there was a mandate that everyone studies in the library instead of where they want (how weird does that even sound?); I don't think anyone cares if people can go in at their own option... that is how things have been for the past year. Its an objection to the mandated return.

This is it exactly. The question shouldn’t be “why do some people prefer to work at home/in the office.” It should be “why do the people who want to go in also need everyone else to go in?” Just give people a choice and flexibility.

TBF, OP was asking "why doesn't everyone join my revolution". It was up to me I'd let you work from home but I'm also not as opposed to the office as you so I'll just go in when asked to. Does that make me a scab?

[Anonymous User]

This also totally misses the point. There is hostility because it is a mandated return to the office. It would be the same as if there was a mandate that everyone studies in the library instead of where they want (how weird does that even sound?); I don't think anyone cares if people can go in at their own option... that is how things have been for the past year. Its an objection to the mandated return.

This is it exactly. The question shouldn’t be “why do some people prefer to work at home/in the office.” It should be “why do the people who want to go in also need everyone else to go in?” Just give people a choice and flexibility.

TBF, OP was asking "why doesn't everyone join my revolution". It was up to me I'd let you work from home but I'm also not as opposed to the office as you so I'll just go in when asked to. Does that make me a scab?

Don't think that is really what OP is asking. OP is asking why the people who hate going in are actually going in right now instead of leveraging the associate manpower shortage to get what they want. At my v10 a few people are going in and just complaining constantly about having to be there; those are the people where its confusing why they aren't just staying home. Also have seen recent departures driven almost entirely by anger about return to work and people pursuing pure remote positions.

[Anonymous User]

This also totally misses the point. There is hostility because it is a mandated return to the office. It would be the same as if there was a mandate that everyone studies in the library instead of where they want (how weird does that even sound?); I don't think anyone cares if people can go in at their own option... that is how things have been for the past year. Its an objection to the mandated return.

This is it exactly. The question shouldn’t be “why do some people prefer to work at home/in the office.” It should be “why do the people who want to go in also need everyone else to go in?” Just give people a choice and flexibility.

TBF, OP was asking "why doesn't everyone join my revolution". It was up to me I'd let you work from home but I'm also not as opposed to the office as you so I'll just go in when asked to. Does that make me a scab?

Also have seen recent departures driven almost entirely by anger about return to work and people pursuing pure remote positions.

And sometimes not out of anger—just silent prioritizing of a remote job/job where you relocated during WFH (that was my case).

[Anonymous User]

The hostility to work in the office on this forum is pretty over the top--just like some people prefer studying in the library at school, some people prefer working in the office. Not to mention that many biglaw associates live in small city center apartments without home offices, not suburban environments with space and a long commute. You're not socially superior because you prefer to work alone (how weird does that even sound?).

You're working alone in either scenario for a typical big law associate and this comes off as a post by someone who either doesn't work in big law or who wants really toxic facetime out of their juniors.

Transactional corp work is basically all done with each person behind their own screen in different rooms, that was the case pre COVID and its the case now. Its basically do you want to spend your breaks with family and friends or alone in your office / with colleagues who I would hope you like less than your significant other and children.

This also totally misses the point. There is hostility because it is a mandated return to the office. It would be the same as if there was a mandate that everyone studies in the library instead of where they want (how weird does that even sound?); I don't think anyone cares if people can go in at their own option... that is how things have been for the past year. Its an objection to the mandated return.

V30 2nd Year Furiously Posts Angry Screed, Continues to Seethe in Comments

Honestly, if you guys are so asspained about RTO, don't go in. Either it'll work out badly for you or it won't -- have confidence in your own decisionmaking.

[Dahl]

I thought the previous comments about people who want to return to the office being lame losers was over the top…but based on those in favor of it in this post, yeah they’re actually on the mark.

[Anonymous User]

There are people refusing to come in at my v10 and the issue has thus far not been forced. Every week more people quit because of how generally unappealing the lifestyle is; there is no leverage to force people in. No one has been talked to about not showing up so far and no indication the issue will be forced in near issue. Plenty of us have been in 0 times in past 6 months. Firm will see immediate departures if forced and this is implicitly obvious.

Generally the most fearful associates have gone in and the associates who, to me, are the most boring and who I don't imagine have a lot going on in their personal lives. Also the true partner gunners eagerly have shown up to kiss ass. Frankly the RTO people are generally losers to me, but that reflects my value set. Like I see a lot of people here talking about 'oh people are going in 1-2 days a week'; that would be more than a lot of me and my peers. You just decide not to go in... and don't. No one is going to fire you in this market.

Anyone going in recognize its purely your choice.

How could you post this and then argue that you’re not at least a little rude? You just called a large swath of your colleges cowards or losers for going to work.

Hate to say it but anyone posting on TLs is probably a loser by your definition. You’re thinking about work and posting on a nerd forum when you could be out there living it up with all your awesome friends!!!!

[Sackboy]

Just let people do what they want. I enjoy coming in every day and have been doing so for months. None of my colleagues have, and that's 100% OK. I personally get work-life separation, shorter work days, some steps, a more focused work environment, a nicer work environment (firm has free food/drinks and a very nice office), a good view, etc. I spent the first part of the pandemic working in my apartment, and I found it very stagnant and depressing for me personally. Others seem to really like it. But, that's different strokes for different folks. I also live 5-10min away from my office and work at a casual dress policy firm, so it's very low effort to go in.

[jotarokujo]

people who are complaining about official policies to return really just need to not go into the office. 95/100 times nothing will happen, and hopefully you can distinguish the situations where something would happen.

[Robot]

The hostility to work in the office on this forum is pretty over the top--just like some people prefer studying in the library at school, some people prefer working in the office. Not to mention that many biglaw associates live in small city center apartments without home offices, not suburban environments with space and a long commute. You're not socially superior because you prefer to work alone (how weird does that even sound?).

You're working alone in either scenario for a typical big law associate and this comes off as a post by someone who either doesn't work in big law or who wants really toxic facetime out of their juniors.

Transactional corp work is basically all done with each person behind their own screen in different rooms, that was the case pre COVID and its the case now. Its basically do you want to spend your breaks with family and friends or alone in your office / with colleagues who I would hope you like less than your significant other and children.

This also totally misses the point. There is hostility because it is a mandated return to the office. It would be the same as if there was a mandate that everyone studies in the library instead of where they want (how weird does that even sound?); I don't think anyone cares if people can go in at their own option... that is how things have been for the past year. Its an objection to the mandated return.

Huh? I didn't say mandates are good, I said the personal bashing of people who like working in the office from a few posters on here is stupid. Live and let live I say.

Also, in my specialty of litigation I need to talk to colleagues all the time regardless of whether I'm in the office, not everyone in biglaw has the workflow of a corporate junior (thank God). If WFH works for you that's great, I hope you can keep doing it, but it doesn't work well for everyone.

[RedNewJersey]

To the posters saying "why not just quit rather than going in and complaining," I think complaining makes a lot of sense. Quitting is a fairly large reaction, and many people think that making their preferences very clear might result in a change in policy which would not require quitting. Not saying anything and then quitting is less likely to lead to policy change than many people clearly explaining that RTO is a problem and, after no change occurs, quitting. Also, being willing to quit removes one of the only reasons *not* to complain about things that bother you.

Apart from that, lots of people follow rules that are expressed as mandatory even when not enforced (and probably more lawyers fall into this category). Those people want to be told the policy is not mandatory rather than just ignoring it.

[Anonymous User]

Junior absolutely dreading mandatory RTO starting this coming week.

[blair.waldorf]

Junior absolutely dreading mandatory RTO starting this coming week.

What happens if someone doesn't comply?

[Anonymous User]

Junior absolutely dreading mandatory RTO starting this coming week.

What happens if someone doesn't comply?

Different anon, but the impression I've gotten is "absolutely nothing." I've heard nothing about any kind of firmwide enforcement mechanism, and it'll probably break down by group.

Messaging from partners in my group has been "we're pretty sure RTO isn't going to be enforced, we personally have no interest in enforcing it, and we're probably not going to observe it ourselves unless someone makes us."

Don't know how it will actually shake out though.

[Anonymous User]

Junior absolutely dreading mandatory RTO starting this coming week.

What happens if someone doesn't comply?

Different anon, but the impression I've gotten is "absolutely nothing." I've heard nothing about any kind of firmwide enforcement mechanism, and it'll probably break down by group.

Messaging from partners in my group has been "we're pretty sure RTO isn't going to be enforced, we personally have no interest in enforcing it, and we're probably not going to observe it ourselves unless someone makes us."

Don't know how it will actually shake out though.

Earlier anon. Unfortunately, the partners in my group have been pushing us to RTO as soon as possible. While there haven't been any formal announcements of enforcement policies, I don't think I'm in a position to push back given my junior status. Whether not showing up would have informal consequences (less partners/seniors know me and staff me) and/or formal consequences (lack of attendance comes up at review, pushed out early, etc) is unclear.

[Anonymous User]

Our policy is RTO Tuesday-Wednesday and one floating day with two days WFH beginning January 4th. Fair enough IMO and I don't expect most people to show up for that third floating day after the first or second week. The Partner I work for was aghast when I brought up the idea of people not coming in after the first week and believed no one would actually do that. I guess we will see.

[Anonymous User]

I’ve gotten flamed here before for presuming to think that WFH has been good for business because it resulted in record profit years. But after our first week where people have to be in the office a few days a week, I have experienced how hours-draining commuting is. I’m not expecting the firm to allow full discretionary WFH, but it strikes me that they might actually prefer a flexible arrangement, and will actually respect the formal hybrid police, since they’ll make more money?

[Anonymous User]

I'm a third-year lit associate who has been remote since March 2020. Firm is now cycling back to requiring 5-day-a-week office attendance. I genuinely enjoy the work, but I am absolutely resenting the expectation to come in. Seems like some are flouting it without consequences, and I'll definitely try that before quitting. But the whole thing strikes me as beyond fucking stupid.

I have nothing against people who want to work in the office. Different strokes. I don't presume that they're all losers who are desperate for human contact or distance from their family, etc. And I really don't mind coming in a few days a week, but the lack of autonomy infuriates me. I really flourished with the flexibility afforded by WFH for 1.5 years, and I'm not sure I can just give it back like it never happened.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a third-year lit associate who has been remote since March 2020. Firm is now cycling back to requiring 5-day-a-week office attendance. I genuinely enjoy the work, but I am absolutely resenting the expectation to come in. Seems like some are flouting it without consequences, and I'll definitely try that before quitting. But the whole thing strikes me as beyond fucking stupid.

I have nothing against people who want to work in the office. Different strokes. I don't presume that they're all losers who are desperate for human contact or distance from their family, etc. And I really don't mind coming in a few days a week, but the lack of autonomy infuriates me. I really flourished with the flexibility afforded by WFH for 1.5 years, and I'm not sure I can just give it back like it never happened.

This is a huge issue for me as well. I really resent the paternalistic vibes that I am getting from my firm.

I also think requiring 5 days a week in the office is pointless, which makes me resent it more. Any benefits to having people together in the office can be achieved with a hybrid model.

[Lesion of Doom]

My firm is on a hybrid model and that's fortunate for me, because otherwise I'd have to quit. This job is brutal as it is, no need to make it worse. I actually look forward to going in from time to time, but I need to be the one who decides it.

[Anonymous User]

I am not exaggerating when I say that my firm having a hybrid model and adopting an unspoken full casual dress code has combined to keep me way longer than if it had gone back to 5x a week and office dress again.

[Anonymous User]

I am not exaggerating when I say that my firm having a hybrid model and adopting an unspoken full casual dress code has combined to keep me way longer than if it had gone back to 5x a week and office dress again.

Off topic but as a first year the "unspoken full casual" is hella confusing. At any given day you see everything from jeans to suits. I feel awkward going casual so I'm staying with bus cas for now.