Any other new associates getting swamped? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Anon for obvious reasons. I am a first year who started at v10 a few weeks ago. I am getting crushed to the extent that my work product is bleeding. I am not in a position to turn down any work as a first year, so just wondering if anyone has any suggestions how to handle this?

Is it okay to take my time and try to make whatever I am turning in perfect? Most of the time, things are pretty urgent, tho. So, I don’t know what to do honestly.

Also wondering if this is normal for people who just started.

[VentureMBA]

Welcome to the rest of your life!

[Anonymous User]

I am the opposite. I started a few weeks ago and I am very very very slow, but I've been told that's normal

[Anonymous User]

Welcome to the rest of your life!

I don’t mind being busy. The point is that, as a first year, I don’t want to make any bad impression, but given the amount of work being thrown at me I don’t know how I can deliver quality work.

[Anonymous User]

So no without saying no. Say that you have X project for Y partner due on Z Day (repeat as necessary). Say you can’t get to the new project until then, or that with the time contraint you don’t think you can complete the project at the level the firm and clients expect.

[Anonymous User]

I am the opposite. I started a few weeks ago and I am very very very slow, but I've been told that's normal

This has been my experience too. Very busy group, NYC v10. I get that it takes a while to train juniors but I also think everyone is just too busy to onboard us so not sure when the ramp up will be.

[Anonymous User]

Anon for obvious reasons. I am a first year who started at v10 a few weeks ago. I am getting crushed to the extent that my work product is bleeding. I am not in a position to turn down any work as a first year, so just wondering if anyone has any suggestions how to handle this?

Is it okay to take my time and try to make whatever I am turning in perfect? Most of the time, things are pretty urgent, tho. So, I don’t know what to do honestly.

Also wondering if this is normal for people who just started.

Me too. They have dumped a ton of projects on me and expect me to remember every detail of a single deal. My word product is bleeding due to lack of time and jumping from one assignment to another. I am going to say no this week to any new assignment and focus on working for one or two partners.

[Anonymous User]

Anon for obvious reasons. I am a first year who started at v10 a few weeks ago. I am getting crushed to the extent that my work product is bleeding. I am not in a position to turn down any work as a first year, so just wondering if anyone has any suggestions how to handle this?

Is it okay to take my time and try to make whatever I am turning in perfect? Most of the time, things are pretty urgent, tho. So, I don’t know what to do honestly.

Also wondering if this is normal for people who just started.

Just say no. I mean, I don't believe the "I have no time" excuse is valid, generally, as you can always sacrifice more sleep time for example. But if it's like "hey, can you get this to me in three hours?" But you're already working on another thing that is around the same time, just let them know. A sensible person would realize that the work product will falter as a result. If they push you anyway, you will know what kind of firm you're at as well as know it's not your fault. They're not going to fire you the first two/three years regardless of what you do (unless you do something real crazy), so relax a bit.

[attorney589753]

Anon for obvious reasons. I am a first year who started at v10 a few weeks ago. I am getting crushed to the extent that my work product is bleeding. I am not in a position to turn down any work as a first year, so just wondering if anyone has any suggestions how to handle this?

Is it okay to take my time and try to make whatever I am turning in perfect? Most of the time, things are pretty urgent, tho. So, I don’t know what to do honestly.

Also wondering if this is normal for people who just started.

Here is my advice (was a first year a long time ago). First, this is pretty normal. When you are new, even simple assignments take forever because you are doing it for the first time. While people working with you "know" that in an abstract sense, it's actually very easy to forget how slow (sorry) new associates are, and as a result it is very easy to get delegated "too much" work. So as people are giving you more work, especially a new deal but even on existing deals, feel free to ask questions like "Should I prioritize X over Y?". Second, your work product is bad but this is also totally normal. Don't worry about it. I remember my first board resolutions, I made about sixty easy/obvious/stupid mistakes. People actually expect you to make mistakes, so I would say the key is more to show that you're learning from your mistakes, not making the same mistake twice, and above all else you have an eager attitude and responsive to your team. Third, I would take a deep breath. After that, check to see if your organizational systems are in place/sufficient. It is easy to let an entire half day get away from you if you feel totally overwhelmed. As much as possible you want to quickly check an email, determine if it's urgent, if not add it to a to-do list, and focus back on completing a piece of work product and completing it well. Finally you should be finding nice/professional/considerate ways to turn down all new work and deals until you feel better in control.

[Anonymous User]

So no without saying no. Say that you have X project for Y partner due on Z Day (repeat as necessary). Say you can’t get to the new project until then, or that with the time contraint you don’t think you can complete the project at the level the firm and clients expect.

This is good, simple advice. “Hi [Senior Associate], I’m happy to help with [project], but I have (insert from above post) so the earliest I can start is [date]. Let me know if that timing is OK. Thanks, [me]”.

There’s no need to apologize for being busy with actual work or make other excuses for yourself or talk about quality. Short and sweet, and be extremely clear about your availability and when you can reasonably expect to complete the drafting or research or whatever. If the partners on your respective matters really, earnestly need you to do the new project on an earlier timetable, they will coordinate amongst each other and tell you what to prioritize. This should resolve about 80% of your time management issues as a junior.

In rare cases, the senior associate may come back to you and say, “I’ve talked this over with your other team and we think you should be able to handle both this week.” Thats a sign that you need to start finding other matters with different partners. And that’s when I would start to raise quality of work concerns - can’t do both at the firm’s standards - and chat with more people to get a sense of who can and will protect you and your time moving forward.

[almostperfectt]

So no without saying no. Say that you have X project for Y partner due on Z Day (repeat as necessary). Say you can’t get to the new project until then, or that with the time contraint you don’t think you can complete the project at the level the firm and clients expect.

In rare cases, the senior associate may come back to you and say, “I’ve talked this over with your other team and we think you should be able to handle both this week.” Thats a sign that you need to start finding other matters with different partners. And that’s when I would start to raise quality of work concerns - can’t do both at the firm’s standards - and chat with more people to get a sense of who can and will protect you and your time moving forward.

There's also a chance that they are correct that you should be able to handle both. Feel free to have a candid conversation with a more senior associate about how long a task should take and if you are working at the pace expected.

[cornerstone]

Am I the only one who is curious about what OP means by "crushed"? The biggest shock to me starting at biglaw was what "normal" hours are in my department (something that has crept up even more over the last couple years). Sometimes just changing your expectation of working hours can make a long day seem more bearable.

+1 on all the advice ITT about setting expectations of those assigning work as a "soft no." Another thought would be to ask questions the right questions when you get an assignment. Learn from others, produce better work product, and cut down on time by asking "where would you start on this task?" or "how do you typically approach this?" There's no shame in not knowing those things your first year.

[The Lsat Airbender]

Am I the only one who is curious about what OP means by "crushed"? The biggest shock to me starting at biglaw was what "normal" hours are in my department (something that has crept up even more over the last couple years). Sometimes just changing your expectation of working hours can make a long day seem more bearable.

Yeah, IME "crushed" is less about total hours/volume and more about having multiple competing deadlines, or trying to keep track of multiple complex workstreams, beyond my ability to multitask or delegate.

[Anonymous User]

Welcome to the rest of your life!

I don’t mind being busy. The point is that, as a first year, I don’t want to make any bad impression, but given the amount of work being thrown at me I don’t know how I can deliver quality work.

Feeling like you do not have enough time to deliver quality work will be a problem for the rest of your big law career. As you get more senior, you (A) get better at learning how to manage tasks and deliver sufficient quality work product quickly and (B) earn enough respect/trust that you can say "no" or delegate away.

In my experience as a junior, if I was truly being tasked with two or more projects/tasks that would be literally impossible for a single person to handle (given burden/timeline), then I was instructed to ask partners to "run interference," i.e. tell them assignment X and assignment Y were competing and that I needed help on a path forward. Resolution would either be (A) partners would discuss and agree that assignment X takes priority over assignment Y or (B) another associate would be brought in to help.

[Anonymous User]

Am I the only one who is curious about what OP means by "crushed"? The biggest shock to me starting at biglaw was what "normal" hours are in my department (something that has crept up even more over the last couple years). Sometimes just changing your expectation of working hours can make a long day seem more bearable.

+1 on all the advice ITT about setting expectations of those assigning work as a "soft no." Another thought would be to ask questions the right questions when you get an assignment. Learn from others, produce better work product, and cut down on time by asking "where would you start on this task?" or "how do you typically approach this?" There's no shame in not knowing those things your first year.

OP here. I billed 80 hours last week. If this is normal, I don’t know how long I can survive.

[Anonymous User]

Really appreciate all the thoughtful responses. Thanks.

[njdevils2626]

Am I the only one who is curious about what OP means by "crushed"? The biggest shock to me starting at biglaw was what "normal" hours are in my department (something that has crept up even more over the last couple years). Sometimes just changing your expectation of working hours can make a long day seem more bearable.

+1 on all the advice ITT about setting expectations of those assigning work as a "soft no." Another thought would be to ask questions the right questions when you get an assignment. Learn from others, produce better work product, and cut down on time by asking "where would you start on this task?" or "how do you typically approach this?" There's no shame in not knowing those things your first year.

OP here. I billed 80 hours last week. If this is normal, I don’t know how long I can survive.

It certainly won't be every week, but it's not abnormal either

[cornerstone]

OP here. I billed 80 hours last week. If this is normal, I don’t know how long I can survive.

It certainly won't be every week, but it's not abnormal either

+1. My worst in the last few years was 220 hours in two weeks. 80 hour weeks are not abnormal.

Say you're going to hit 2500 hours (pretty common at elite shops) and take your 4 weeks of vacation. That's an average of 52 hours a week. When things get busy, it's not surprising that you'd go ~50% over that to 80 hours.

With that said, if you're hitting 80 hours (or even 70 IMHO) week after week regardless of which matters you're staffed on there's something else going on. Either you are indeed getting assigned too much work (possible, especially in today's market) or you need to develop ways to work more efficiently. The only way you're going to diagnose the issue is by talking to your colleagues about your workload and assignments.

I am sorry that you're feeling crushed (burnt out?), especially this soon. Regardless of whether you (should have) expected this or not and whether this is normal or not, what you're feeling now is not easy or pleasant. Your colleagues outside of the legal profession would probably be shocked. In the end of the day there's no shame in thinking this work environment is too much to handle. You have to prioritize your mental health in this profession because your employer and colleagues certainly will not. Hopefully the strategies in this thread will help make this job easier to handle.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Welcome to the rest of your life!

I don’t mind being busy. The point is that, as a first year, I don’t want to make any bad impression, but given the amount of work being thrown at me I don’t know how I can deliver quality work.

Feeling like you do not have enough time to deliver quality work will be a problem for the rest of your big law career. As you get more senior, you (A) get better at learning how to manage tasks and deliver sufficient quality work product quickly and (B) earn enough respect/trust that you can say "no" or delegate away.

In my experience as a junior, if I was truly being tasked with two or more projects/tasks that would be literally impossible for a single person to handle (given burden/timeline), then I was instructed to ask partners to "run interference," i.e. tell them assignment X and assignment Y were competing and that I needed help on a path forward. Resolution would either be (A) partners would discuss and agree that assignment X takes priority over assignment Y or (B) another associate would be brought in to help.

Co-signing the above.

Feeling overwhelmed as an associate, at any level, is by design. Firms want to keep pushing work onto associates until they find the point where either you crack or your work product becomes unacceptably shitty.

Clients and partners are aware that a lot of their requests for timing are not reasonable and will nonetheless push you to get something out on an unreasonable timeline (they don't give a fuck what else you have going on and they REALLY don't give a fuck about how you feel about it). You will get numb to this over time, and as you learn how long various things actually take, you'll either push back or pay lip service to some unreasonable schedule even as everyone knows it will be longer. In some instances, you will be given 15 or 20 or 30 hours of work in a day, and it *has to be you*, and then it will be incumbent upon you to tell everyone that not everything they wanted can get done in the timeframe they wanted it done (Bonus points if the people assigning you the work hate one another and wind up arguing over whose thing is the most crucial). If your work is actually okay, it's extremely rare it has serious consequences for you. The second-most common outcome is the firm learns to get over it, and the most common outcome, by far, is that you get sick of it very quickly.

As you get more senior, you'll get more skilled and have people under you to pass down anything you don't have time for (and, if you're unscrupulous, anything else you don't feel like doing that a junior might be able to handle without fucking it up so bad that fixing it takes more time than doing it yourself). And then, in turn, you'll be given more client contact, more things to manage, and just generally a harder workload, so yeah, you're trading one problem for another. Sorry, there's no "hump" to get over from a professional development standpoint. It does not get better. Try not to make a career out of this.

[Elvis_Dumervil]

As you get more senior, you'll get more skilled and have people under you to pass down anything you don't have time for (and, if you're unscrupulous, anything else you don't feel like doing that a junior might be able to handle without fucking it up so bad that fixing it takes more time than doing it yourself). And then, in turn, you'll be given more client contact, more things to manage, and just generally a harder workload, so yeah, you're trading one problem for another. Sorry, there's no "hump" to get over from a professional development standpoint. It does not get better. Try not to make a career out of this.

I made partner two years ago and it was more of this. Now instead of partners with unrealistic expectations, it's clients.
Client: "I need from your firm X, Y, and Z by next week."
Me: "Totally doable. I have the following four associates and partners ready to work on this, can we get them approved to bill on this matter?"
Client: "No. Just one associate and one partner."

So then the associate gets loaded down with totally unrealistic work. But trust me, nobody is happy. It extends all the way to the top. And I'm sure my client has to deal with his boss, and his boss's boss, doing exactly the same thing. Obviously some lowly assistant general counsel wants to have more people billing, but he probably gets yelled at for not controlling costs and also not getting things done fast enough. Similarly, the partners would love to have lots of associates billing instead of torturing juniors.

What you all are encountering is that in the trilemma of speed, cost, and quality, clients seem to usually choose speed and cost (or at least those are the clients that you notice since they're so unpleasant).

[Anonymous User]

Okay, so hypothetically speaking, is it better to meet the deadline with some minor mistakes (like typos or formatting) if I was given an unreasonable time frame but still getting chased than to try to make everything perfect?

[Jchance]

Okay, so hypothetically speaking, is it better to meet the deadline with some minor mistakes (like typos or formatting) if I was given an unreasonable time frame but still getting chased than to try to make everything perfect?

No for lit. Better to ask for extensions (and take as much time as you need) to turn in essentially flawless work.

[Anonymous User]

Okay, so hypothetically speaking, is it better to meet the deadline with some minor mistakes (like typos or formatting) if I was given an unreasonable time frame but still getting chased than to try to make everything perfect?

No for lit. Better to ask for extensions (and take as much time as you need) to turn in essentially flawless work.

Would push back just a little on this. Minimizing mistakes (especially easy stuff like typos, formatting) and making it look good should always be encouraged, but I routinely send drafts to partners/of counsel who are antsy to see work product by X date/time when it isn't "flawless", and I always caveat by saying "rough draft," "working draft," "wanted to get this over to you but still refining" etc. It really depends on the assignment and the person who assigned it to you. But I would never circulate WP that is riddled with typos and clear errors.

Also given that partners will always find ways to redline/comment on drafts, even after a round or multiple rounds of edits from another partner and senior associate, I quickly divested myself of the notion that WP I sent was ever "flawless". You'll find that everyone has slightly different writing styles and preferences.

[attorney589753]

Okay, so hypothetically speaking, is it better to meet the deadline with some minor mistakes (like typos or formatting) if I was given an unreasonable time frame but still getting chased than to try to make everything perfect?

There is no hard-fast rule on this sort of stuff and navigating it is contextual and also the sort of thing that separates average from really good associates. It depends on your practice area, your client, your partner/senior associate, etc. For example there are some people who are going to make a lot of changes no matter what, and might want extra time to review, so getting them something quickly might be best. But in the longterm I think attorneys are judged by their quality and more if they're "fast enough"; I think you don't want to be in the bottom third in terms of responsiveness, but being the most responsive with bad work quality won't help you advance far either. Maybe a general rule is that, as a junior, you always want to review your work at least once before passing it up, and sometimes maybe twice, unless it is a very easy task.