Biglaw to Plaintiff's Firm Owner: AMA Forum

[Lacepiece23]

It's pretty funny that in 10 months you went from "I do all the interesting work. I delegate things I don't like doing." to "I’m tired of doing so much legal work myself."

How is this mutually exclusive? I’m tired of doing interesting legal work, which includes trials, deps, mediation, and dispositive motions. I’ve been doing that for two years now.

I want to be in a position to delegate all of my legal work if I want to, which I’m not in a position to get. That’s my five year plan. Others want to make millions of dollars a year. I just want to make a pretty good amount of money and have the option to practice law or even work at all for that matter.

[Anonymous User]

Hmm I used to work at a plaintiff-side employment firm where in recent years the boss would just drop here or there in to settle a high-profile matter or depose a famous witness and otherwise seemed content to wax poetically on firm-wide calls and rake in the cash

[thisismytlsuername]

It's pretty funny that in 10 months you went from "I do all the interesting work. I delegate things I don't like doing." to "I’m tired of doing so much legal work myself."

How is this mutually exclusive? I’m tired of doing interesting legal work, which includes trials, deps, mediation, and dispositive motions. I’ve been doing that for two years now.

I want to be in a position to delegate all of my legal work if I want to, which I’m not in a position to get. That’s my five year plan. Others want to make millions of dollars a year. I just want to make a pretty good amount of money and have the option to practice law or even work at all for that matter.

I didn't say they were. I just think it's funny that you went from "This is awesome" to "This sucks, I don't want to do it anymore" so quickly. I don't blame you, I got sick of litigating as well.

[Anonymous User]

What percent of your overhead is malpractice insurance and Westlaw subscriptions?

Like 1%. I don’t have Westlaw and my malpractice was like 2k last year.

What do you use instead of Westlaw?

I use castext and then law students if I have a dispositive motion and need a WL cite.

Casetext is really, really good for the price, I'm curious if it will eventually start putting pricing pressure on the big players, especially for smaller firms.

[fancybagman]

Some of the habits for service have carried over from biglaw. And those little habits that were drilled into me make my clients love me because they don't expect it.

Can you elaborate here?

[Lacepiece23]

Some of the habits for service have carried over from biglaw. And those little habits that were drilled into me make my clients love me because they don't expect it.

Can you elaborate here?

Stuff like writing well, attention to detail, responsiveness to clients, etc. The bar tends to be lower on this stuff for small firm lawyers.

[PlanetExpress]

How much are you expecting take home as income this year, and what do you project into the next few years?

Are you doing contingency? If so, what percent do you take?

Would you say starting your own firm was easier, harder, or about as hard as you expected?

[Lacepiece23]

How much are you expecting take home as income this year, and what do you project into the next few years?

Are you doing contingency? If so, what percent do you take?

Would you say starting your own firm was easier, harder, or about as hard as you expected?

1) I don't expect to take home any income. I hired a full time operations person, associate, and virtual assistant. They take home the money.

2) I do contingency and take home 40%. My effective rate on cases has varied between 100s and thousands of dollars.

3) It's harder in some ways and easier in others. Getting business has been way easier than expected. Having the motivation everyday to take abuse from OC has been harder. I was ready to run my own cases and be free of biglaw partners to only realize that they were out to make my life as miserable as possible on the other side.

[AaronCarter]

i assume you mean, discrimination, eeo, sexual harassment, etc etc?

...

I also am trying to get into some wage and hour cases. I also have a FCA case. But these are pretty new areas for me and I'm co-counseling them.

If statistics are to be believed, there is MASSIVE wage theft taking place all the time across a variety of industries in the US. In theory, I would assume this would be one of the most profitable parts of employment law.
Is that accurate? Or, is the practical effect that this area/these cases are not worth much?

Also, what do you mean by FCA?

[Lacepiece23]

i assume you mean, discrimination, eeo, sexual harassment, etc etc?

...

I also am trying to get into some wage and hour cases. I also have a FCA case. But these are pretty new areas for me and I'm co-counseling them.

If statistics are to be believed, there is MASSIVE wage theft taking place all the time across a variety of industries in the US. In theory, I would assume this would be one of the most profitable parts of employment law.
Is that accurate? Or, is the practical effect that this area/these cases are not worth much?

Also, what do you mean by FCA?

Wage and hour claims are very lucrative as class actions. I haven’t gotten one yet mostly because I don’t have the capacity to screen for it yet.

FCA means False Claims Act.

[Anonymous User]

I unexpectedly made partner at a v50 about a year ago. But when I figured I was going to be pushed out I was pretty sure I’d end up starting a FCA-focused plaintiff’s firm. Care to share how you landed that case and how it’s going?

[Lacepiece23]

I unexpectedly made partner at a v50 about a year ago. But when I figured I was going to be pushed out I was pretty sure I’d end up starting a FCA-focused plaintiff’s firm. Care to share how you landed that case and how it’s going?

It was dumb luck. And then it didn’t pan out anyway because the client became unresponsive.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for this thread.

I know this may be an impossible question, but assuming you’re in a decent market (Philly, Chicago, etc), what’s the earning power for Plaintiff side employment lawyers who conduct the work you do v personal injury lawyers? I *assume* there are more upfront costs doing PI compared to employment, but higher verdict potential on the PI side. Is that at all accurate? Basing the assumption on the stats from topverdict.com

My dream is to hang a shingle one day. Help regular people who need it. But make as much $ as I can.

[Anonymous User]

Employment is very jurisdiction dependent. California (for example) has a lot more employee protections than Alabama and a more friendly climate to employment actions. A place with high-salary workers also has more potential to generate larger payouts.

Plaintiff's side employment work has a few main tracks: 1) discrimination-type claims involving at-will employees, 2) executive terminations where there is an employment agreement to be negotiated, and 3) multi-plaintiff and class actions (i.e. wage and hour class actions).

The at will employee stuff is usually less lucrative unless you can get a stable of high-earning clients in a friendly jurisdiction. The executive stuff is more specialized and even a large city will typically only have a small handful of lawyers who do that work on a regular basis (like, fewer than 10 in a city of millions). The class action stuff is also very specialized and tends to need more resources than a solo.

Many employment boutiques will do a mix of employer and employee side work, although conflicts can be an issue with doing both. Employer-side counseling work is often a good way to "keep the lights on." If you do employee side work, you need to have good experience picking cases. Everyone who is upset about getting fired wants to sue, but only a small handful really have an actionable claim that is worth more than nuisance value.

The most common path would be to put time in biglaw or an employment boutique (either a true boutique or a large specialty shop like Ogletree). The true biglaw shops do less litigation work and more M&A or counseling work because they are priced out of most defense work (other than class actions).

Compared to PI stuff, employment has a lower earnings ceiling, but more of a "moat" because it requires specialized knowledge. Just about anybody with a bar card and some cash can put up a billboard and take car accident cases with fairly minimal training. But the same can't be said with employment cases. Employment can also cross over into biglaw or in-house jobs while PI rarely does.

[Lacepiece23]

Employment is very jurisdiction dependent. California (for example) has a lot more employee protections than Alabama and a more friendly climate to employment actions. A place with high-salary workers also has more potential to generate larger payouts.

Plaintiff's side employment work has a few main tracks: 1) discrimination-type claims involving at-will employees, 2) executive terminations where there is an employment agreement to be negotiated, and 3) multi-plaintiff and class actions (i.e. wage and hour class actions).

The at will employee stuff is usually less lucrative unless you can get a stable of high-earning clients in a friendly jurisdiction. The executive stuff is more specialized and even a large city will typically only have a small handful of lawyers who do that work on a regular basis (like, fewer than 10 in a city of millions). The class action stuff is also very specialized and tends to need more resources than a solo.

Many employment boutiques will do a mix of employer and employee side work, although conflicts can be an issue with doing both. Employer-side counseling work is often a good way to "keep the lights on." If you do employee side work, you need to have good experience picking cases. Everyone who is upset about getting fired wants to sue, but only a small handful really have an actionable claim that is worth more than nuisance value.

The most common path would be to put time in biglaw or an employment boutique (either a true boutique or a large specialty shop like Ogletree). The true biglaw shops do less litigation work and more M&A or counseling work because they are priced out of most defense work (other than class actions).

Compared to PI stuff, employment has a lower earnings ceiling, but more of a "moat" because it requires specialized knowledge. Just about anybody with a bar card and some cash can put up a billboard and take car accident cases with fairly minimal training. But the same can't be said with employment cases. Employment can also cross over into biglaw or in-house jobs while PI rarely does.

This is more or less pretty accurate.

[Anonymous User]

Employment is very jurisdiction dependent. California (for example) has a lot more employee protections than Alabama and a more friendly climate to employment actions. A place with high-salary workers also has more potential to generate larger payouts.

Plaintiff's side employment work has a few main tracks: 1) discrimination-type claims involving at-will employees, 2) executive terminations where there is an employment agreement to be negotiated, and 3) multi-plaintiff and class actions (i.e. wage and hour class actions).

The at will employee stuff is usually less lucrative unless you can get a stable of high-earning clients in a friendly jurisdiction. The executive stuff is more specialized and even a large city will typically only have a small handful of lawyers who do that work on a regular basis (like, fewer than 10 in a city of millions). The class action stuff is also very specialized and tends to need more resources than a solo.

Many employment boutiques will do a mix of employer and employee side work, although conflicts can be an issue with doing both. Employer-side counseling work is often a good way to "keep the lights on." If you do employee side work, you need to have good experience picking cases. Everyone who is upset about getting fired wants to sue, but only a small handful really have an actionable claim that is worth more than nuisance value.

The most common path would be to put time in biglaw or an employment boutique (either a true boutique or a large specialty shop like Ogletree). The true biglaw shops do less litigation work and more M&A or counseling work because they are priced out of most defense work (other than class actions).

Compared to PI stuff, employment has a lower earnings ceiling, but more of a "moat" because it requires specialized knowledge. Just about anybody with a bar card and some cash can put up a billboard and take car accident cases with fairly minimal training. But the same can't be said with employment cases. Employment can also cross over into biglaw or in-house jobs while PI rarely does.

This is more or less pretty accurate.

Thank you both!