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Literally everyone else has finished their OCIs, so I know I'm very late to the party here, but figured I'd try to seek some advice anyways.

Not sure exactly what I'd like to do, so interested in going to a firm with the best overall practices so I can shop around (lean towards lit though). Overall, the V20 is better in that respect.

Also, concerned about exit options generally. In that respect, seems like the V20 will be better - bigger name, working on more prominent deals/matters/clients.

Cost of living and presumably QoL will be better at the secondary market V50. I've got a lot of debt to pay off so that would be nice. My fiance is also living in the secondary market, and likely will be for at least a few more years. This latter one is the single biggest reason that pulls me to the V50 now.

Biggest concern is that I'm not sure if I'd like to spend the rest of my career in the secondary market. I definitely want to keep the option open to move markets in the future, and I feel like the V20 is better for that.

I also think it might be more fun to spend a few years in NYC, though I'm not sure if "NYC fun" should outweigh personal considerations, CoL/QoL, etc.; however, maybe that + better career outcomes would make it worth it to take the V20.

Appreciate any input.

I would go to the city my fiancé is in, pay back my loans quicker, and not look back.

It's hard to say if the exit options are going to be meaningfully different and by how much though without knowing which secondary market and what exploring different practice areas will actually look like at each firm.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:42 pm

I would go to the city my fiancé is in, pay back my loans quicker, and not look back.

It's hard to say if the exit options are going to be meaningfully different and by how much though without knowing which secondary market and what exploring different practice areas will actually look like at each firm.

Appreciate the input. Secondary market isn't like SF/LA/Chi; smaller, but not a "tertiary" market. Each firm hires into specific practice groups once summer is done.

Biggest concern is going to the secondary while my fiance is there (he's committed for another 4 years minimum to finish his program, so 2 more years of law school + 2 years of practice for me), but then never being able to leave, or at least never being able to leave to, say, a V20 in NYC. Any thoughts on that?

It's probably true that it's easier to go from a NY V20 to a secondary V50 than the other way around, so you could try it out. IDK, four years away from a fiancé sounds like a lot to me. I think you just gotta talk with your fiancé about what the time will look like, it's defiantly a hard choice.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:10 pm

It's probably true that it's easier to go from a NY V20 to a secondary V50 than the other way around, so you could try it out. IDK, four years away from a fiancé sounds like a lot to me. I think you just gotta talk with your fiancé about what the time will look like, it's defiantly a hard choice.

OP would "only" be away from her fiance for two years since she is currently a 2L. Regardless, take the secondary market offer and run. Two years of NY biglaw + LTR does not sound like a good mix whatsoever.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:17 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:10 pm

It's probably true that it's easier to go from a NY V20 to a secondary V50 than the other way around, so you could try it out. IDK, four years away from a fiancé sounds like a lot to me. I think you just gotta talk with your fiancé about what the time will look like, it's defiantly a hard choice.

OP would "only" be away from her fiance for two years since she is currently a 2L. Regardless, take the secondary market offer and run. Two years of NY biglaw + LTR does not sound like a good mix whatsoever.

[person you replied to] - I think you're probably right, it does sound miserable, although another thought I thought of is they should think about how important it is to spend a couple years in NY to them - if they end up feeling like if they missed out on better career options years from now it's going to be really feel bad.

Appreciate all of the responses.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:17 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:10 pm

It's probably true that it's easier to go from a NY V20 to a secondary V50 than the other way around, so you could try it out. IDK, four years away from a fiancé sounds like a lot to me. I think you just gotta talk with your fiancé about what the time will look like, it's defiantly a hard choice.

OP would "only" be away from her fiance for two years since she is currently a 2L. Regardless, take the secondary market offer and run. Two years of NY biglaw + LTR does not sound like a good mix whatsoever.

Would actually be four years total - I'm in school in a different city than where he currently lives :/

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 02, 2021 10:23 pm

[person you replied to] - I think you're probably right, it does sound miserable, although another thought I thought of is they should think about how important it is to spend a couple years in NY to them - if they end up feeling like if they missed out on better career options years from now it's going to be really feel bad.

And that's my main concern. I'm willing to give the V50 a shot for a few years until he can move, but if I can't move after that, I might be very disappointed. (Or maybe I'll want to stay forever! But I can't commit to that right now and I'm afraid of getting pigeonholed.)

Part of growing up is understanding that the constant need to maintain optionality takes an immeasurable toll on one's personal life and that when those options aren't necessary anymore, it's okay to actually pick an option and in a sense, "settle." I mean--That's why you went through the effort to create the options in the first place, right?

Further, even when regrettable things result, it's okay to think to ourselves that a) we made our choice, we enjoyed the benefits of that choice, and it's only natural that choices, which in real life are almost always double-edged swords, come with some detrimental aspects, b) whichever path not taken probably had its own share of hardships, and c) we will never know which was objectively the better path to take (if such a thing even exists).

Maybe that made me sound like an asshole, but I think that it's what needed to be said (to frankly like 50%+ of the choice questions that gets asked on here).

I personally would pick the V50 market and live with the fiancé. Long distance relationships are hard and even more so when you’re at a V20 and will be working a lot. My experience working at a V20 in NYC during the pandemic is that a lot of junior attorneys have quit and moved back home. In a general sense, yes it is easier to go from V20 nyc to V50 secondary market than vice versa but if you like the secondary market the best thing is to go straight there (particularly if you have personal reasons to do so).

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:21 pm

. . . My fiance is also living in the secondary market, and likely will be for at least a few more years. This latter one is the single biggest reason that pulls me to the V50 now.

Biggest concern is that I'm not sure if I'd like to spend the rest of my career in the secondary market. I definitely want to keep the option open to move markets in the future, and I feel like the V20 is better for that.

I also think it might be more fun to spend a few years in NYC, though I'm not sure if "NYC fun" should outweigh personal considerations, CoL/QoL, etc.; however, maybe that + better career outcomes would make it worth it to take the V20.

Appreciate any input.

Alright, time for some tough love. Based on the bolded above, you need to sit down and discuss this with your fiance. You also need to figure out what it is you want to do here, because you yourself don't seem to know for sure.

If "I'm not sure if I'd like to spend the rest of my career in the secondary market" and "it might be fun to spend a few years in NYC" are code for "I don't want to spend the rest of my career in the secondary market" and "I want to spend a few years in NYC," then it'll be a lot easier to give you input. As it stands, you're hedging too much with what you want — I think you need to (1) figure out where you're at with your life and what it is you want to do, and (2) discuss this with your fiance.

Personally, I'd start at the V50 firm to be closer to my fiance, but I can't tell if NYC is in the realm of idle fantasy, or if you are trying to downplay the fact that you don't want to live in a secondary market and do want to live in NYC. If the latter, you should probably start there (and have a serious conversation with your fiance).

First, not sure if "NYC fun" should be a factor for a first year biglaw associate.

Second, you need to consider other options that may be available in your situation. Your significant other may have the option of doing his third year of law school as a visiting student at a NYC area law school and you may have the option of relocating to the secondary city after a year in NYC in the current covid induced work-from-home work environment even though the Vault 20 law firm does not have an office located there as work-from-home becomes a more common practice.

Of course, it would help to know the cities involved. Without more information, I will assume that the distance & travel time between NYC & the law school are substantial.

To state the obvious, to some extent this may be a choice between your career & your relationship. Long distance relationships introduce certain challenges into a relationship that may result in one or both individuals forming other significant attachments.

Ultimately, only you and your significant other can make this decision. I would not base a decision on an internet poll or on the opinions of others.

Is there a strong likelihood of your significant other working in NYC biglaw ?

Can you clarify why your significant other has "at least" a 4 year commitment to the secondary city ?

You can’t buy years with your fiance back. Go to the V50. This will seem like a silly question in 3 years.

BrainsyK wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 03, 2021 2:34 am

Part of growing up is understanding that the constant need to maintain optionality takes an immeasurable toll on one's personal life and that when those options aren't necessary anymore, it's okay to actually pick an option and in a sense, "settle." I mean--That's why you went through the effort to create the options in the first place, right?

Further, even when regrettable things result, it's okay to think to ourselves that a) we made our choice, we enjoyed the benefits of that choice, and it's only natural that choices, which in real life are almost always double-edged swords, come with some detrimental aspects, b) whichever path not taken probably had its own share of hardships, and c) we will never know which was objectively the better path to take (if such a thing even exists).

Maybe that made me sound like an asshole, but I think that it's what needed to be said (to frankly like 50%+ of the choice questions that gets asked on here).

By far the most useful post on TLS!

This is one of the most insane posts I've ever seen on TLS, and I feel like people are not recognizing it.

How the fuck is this even a question? You're contemplating living in a different city from your fiance, for years, and for what? Vault ranking? "NYC fun?" Asinine. These firms are all largely fungible even for totally unattached K-JDs, and you're contemplating basically dismantling your personal life over it.

If I were your fiance and observed you even entertaining this as an actual choice, I would call off the wedding.

ExpOriental wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:10 pm

This is one of the most insane posts I've ever seen on TLS, and I feel like people are not recognizing it.

How the fuck is this even a question? You're contemplating living in a different city from your fiance, for years, and for what? Vault ranking? "NYC fun?" Asinine. These firms are all largely fungible even for totally unattached K-JDs, and you're contemplating basically dismantling your personal life over it.

If I were your fiance and observed you even entertaining this as an actual choice, I would call off the wedding.

But anon, you cannot discount the possibility of greater opportunities in New York!! As if the difference between a NY V20 is really that superior to a secondary V50 in terms of exit options.

I read through this thread and could not help but question OP’s relationship status. In what world would you want to voluntarily spend multiple years away from your fucking fiancé, when you have a fantastic opportunity to stay with him + make market pay? I could somewhat understand if NY was your only option and you had to spend a few years to pay off your loans. Maybe wanting “NYC fun” is just a euphemism for some other activities, I dunno

Honestly, I read through this and narrowed it down to 2 cities: Philly and Boston.

Since V50, I’m assuming one of Morgan Lewis or Goodwin, although it could be a satellite.

OP would be crazy to choose to go to a V20 in NY when both Philly and Boston are big cities (and firms) that will give him/her access to the same sorts of exit opportunities AND his/her fiancé is there.

NY fun is only fun if you’re single.

Currently dealing with a similar situation and my take is that this is a no-brainer: take the secondary market V50. My spouse is still in school and we live in different cities. There are no market-paying firms in their city, so the choice was a little different for us. If I had had an option to work in their city and earn market pay, there is no way we’d be living apart. It wouldn’t have even been a discussion. Living apart really sucks. We made the decision together and knew what we were getting into, but it still sucks.

I’m not particularly fond of NYC but even if I were, nothing could have convinced me to choose working in NYC without my spouse over working in the city my spouse lives in had these been my options. I honestly can’t imagine taking the V20 in your situation.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:45 pm

Currently dealing with a similar situation and my take is that this is a no-brainer: take the secondary market V50. My spouse is still in school and we live in different cities. There are no market-paying firms in their city, so the choice was a little different for us. If I had had an option to work in their city and earn market pay, there is no way we’d be living apart. It wouldn’t have even been a discussion. Living apart really sucks. We made the decision together and knew what we were getting into, but it still sucks.

I’m not particularly fond of NYC but even if I were, nothing could have convinced me to choose working in NYC without my spouse over working in the city my spouse lives in had these been my options. I honestly can’t imagine taking the V20 in your situation.

Agreed. Part of me wonders if OP even wants to be with the fiancé…

As someone currently in NY away from my fiancé for a clerkship, it fucking sucks, and the only good thing is that it’s only a year. NY really isn’t that fun when you’re working crazy hours (I’m on SDNY, so I am), and most of the “fun” things are crazy expensive. And you’ll likely get experience at least as good somewhere smaller—bigness is if anything inversely correlated with “prestige” in lit. Plus Vault doesn’t really work well even as a metric of prestige outside of NY. Like nobody thinks White & Case NY > Goodwin Boston.

Also, reading between the lines it seems your fiancé is doing a Ph.D., and part of getting married to someone in academia is accepting that you will likely never really control where you live. Just be glad your career lets you work pretty much anywhere.

Overall agree with the consensus, this is childish and it’s come time for you to put away childish things.

double post my b

2013 wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:37 pm

OP would be crazy to choose to go to a V20 in NY when both Philly and Boston are big cities (and firms) that will give him/her access to the same sorts of exit opportunities AND his/her fiancé is there.

Yes. Also, as others have noted, you should probably not indicate that you are contemplating the V20 to your fiance, since that decision would suggest such devaluation of the relationship that it would be a instant deal-breaker for many people (speaking from personal and secondhand experience).

NY fun is only fun if you’re single.

I must be doing it wrong then, because NY is not particularly fun for me even though I am single.

ExpOriental wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:10 pm

This is one of the most insane posts I've ever seen on TLS, and I feel like people are not recognizing it.

How the fuck is this even a question? You're contemplating living in a different city from your fiance, for years, and for what? Vault ranking? "NYC fun?" Asinine. These firms are all largely fungible even for totally unattached K-JDs, and you're contemplating basically dismantling your personal life over it.

If I were your fiance and observed you even entertaining this as an actual choice, I would call off the wedding.

Yep. I focused my OCI process almost entirely on moving to the city my boyfriend was in. I wonder if OP even wants to be with her fiancé.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:21 pm

I definitely want to keep the option open to move markets in the future, and I feel like the V20 is better for that.

I also think it might be more fun to spend a few years in NYC, though I'm not sure if "NYC fun" should outweigh personal considerations, CoL/QoL, etc.; however, maybe that + better career outcomes would make it worth it to take the V20.

Appreciate any input.

You'll maximize optionality and "fun" by dumping your fiancé and taking the NYC offer

ExpOriental wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:10 pm

This is one of the most insane posts I've ever seen on TLS, and I feel like people are not recognizing it.

How the fuck is this even a question? You're contemplating living in a different city from your fiance, for years, and for what? Vault ranking? "NYC fun?" Asinine. These firms are all largely fungible even for totally unattached K-JDs, and you're contemplating basically dismantling your personal life over it.
If I were your fiance and observed you even entertaining this as an actual choice, I would call off the wedding.

TCR. I think it's awful that women are often expected to compromise their careers for their husbands(-to-be), but this isn't even a compromise. You'll still be a successful biglawyer at the V50. It sounds like you're only half-committed to this engagement and want to be able to pull the ripcord later for whatever reason.

I'm trying to imagine if my fiancé(e) woke up one day and told me "I've decided to move to [city] for a couple of years because it sounds cool and will enable me to move to yet more places in the future. Also, I'll be working too much to take your calls some days." I would assume, correctly, that they were trying to dump me and testing the waters to see how I'd react.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:42 pm

I would go to the city my fiancé is in, pay back my loans quicker, and not look back.

It's hard to say if the exit options are going to be meaningfully different and by how much though without knowing which secondary market and what exploring different practice areas will actually look like at each firm.

Appreciate the input. Secondary market isn't like SF/LA/Chi; a little smaller, but not a "tertiary" market. Each firm hires into specific practice groups once summer is done.

Biggest concern is going to the secondary while my fiance is there (he's committed for another 4 years minimum to finish his program, so 2 more years of law school + 2 years of practice for me), but then never being able to leave, or at least never being able to leave to, say, a V20 in NYC. Any thoughts on that?

OP's second post in this thread seems unclear to me. OP: What do you mean by: "so 2 more years of law school + 2 more years of practice for me" ? OP: Are you a first year law student ?

Also, I agree that the strength of the relationship may be an issue.

If, as suggested by another poster, the V50 is in Philly or Boston, then the distance is far less of a concern than if the V50 is in Houston, Dallas, Phoenix, Atlanta,or Seattle.

CanadianWolf wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 03, 2021 3:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:42 pm

I would go to the city my fiancé is in, pay back my loans quicker, and not look back.

It's hard to say if the exit options are going to be meaningfully different and by how much though without knowing which secondary market and what exploring different practice areas will actually look like at each firm.

Appreciate the input. Secondary market isn't like SF/LA/Chi; a little smaller, but not a "tertiary" market. Each firm hires into specific practice groups once summer is done.

Biggest concern is going to the secondary while my fiance is there (he's committed for another 4 years minimum to finish his program, so 2 more years of law school + 2 years of practice for me), but then never being able to leave, or at least never being able to leave to, say, a V20 in NYC. Any thoughts on that?

OP's second post in this thread seems unclear to me. OP: What do you mean by: "so 2 more years of law school + 2 more years of practice for me" ? OP: Are you a first year law student ?

Also, I agree that the strength of the relationship may be an issue.

If,as suggested by another poster, the V50 is in Philly or Boston, then the distance is far less of a concern than if the V50 is in Houston,Dallas,Phoenix, Atlanta,or Seattle.

The way I read it was that OP is currently a 2L that went through OCI and is currently weighing offers for their 2L SA position.