2021 End of Year Bonuses Forum

[Anonymous User]

There are stories from the "old days" where people were getting 2x, 2.5x, 3x multipliers but that was from a time when the firm was much smaller, more Chicago-focused, more litigation-focused and frankly just a different culture entirely. It would have been fun to have been here back then.

I think this about KE often, especially as a litigator, and more than one SP has made a comment that made me think they are salty about the way the firm has changed in the last 5, 10, 15 years. But it has a ruthless efficiency at maximizing PPP now so there's that.

KE definitely made a choice about 10 years ago to pursue a strategy to become "the wealthiest firm in the world (fueled by transactional)" vs. "become the best litigation shop in the world but not as big" and there's a sort of two roads diverged in a wood moment there. There's an alt. history where KE in 2021 is like a much bigger version of Susman rather than "The Richest Firm in the World."

As a potential lateral into KE on the litigation side, I would love to hear more about this. Do these posters above (or anyone with real experience with KE lit) think the culture there (on lit side) has deteriorated in some way from its past? Is there an inferiority complex vis-a-vis the transactional folks?

For example, one thing we sometimes hear about WLRK's lit is that it's in large part a service arm for their corporate side. Do folks at KE litigation think that way, sometimes, or has the firm moved in that sort of direction?

KE’s litigation department literally just won “Litigation Department of the Year.” It’s filled with industry-leading partners who rival firms would salivate over being able to poach. It takes on the biggest and most complex cases in the country, routinely, and wins them (at actual trials, not just the settlement table) routinely.

Having said that, has the culture changed? Yes. I’d liken it to being an A student, top of the class, for years and then suddenly a new student comes in who’s the A+ student. The dynamic changes.

KE 10 years ago was a shop of litigators, and then they had a bunch of other satellite practices (I’m sure head honchos in those practices would bristle at the description, but it’s true), including a very lucrative one in mid market M&A. The culture was decidedly litigation first in a Williams & Connolly sort of way.

Today, the power dynamic at the firm is tilted in favor of transactional. That’s a wild change over just a decade. The amount of money various transactional practices make now is eye-watering. The role of PE and more lately SPACs has changed a lot of the dynamics. There was also an infamous bloodletting a few years ago where many lit partners in the firm especially from the “time before” had their shares reduced in favor of transactional partners which let everyone know where things were moving.

Hopefully the above is helpful. KE is one of the great litigation firms in the country but it isn’t only great at litigation anymore, litigation is clearly in the second spot as far as driving profit now, and the culture is becoming more and more transactional by the day. There’s a great career to be made here as a litigator but if you’re looking for a pure lit play KE isn’t it and it’s going to become even less of it over the next 10 yrs I think.

[Anonymous User]

Fried Frank added special bonuses making it a full DPW match.

[Anonymous User]

There are stories from the "old days" where people were getting 2x, 2.5x, 3x multipliers but that was from a time when the firm was much smaller, more Chicago-focused, more litigation-focused and frankly just a different culture entirely. It would have been fun to have been here back then.

I think this about KE often, especially as a litigator, and more than one SP has made a comment that made me think they are salty about the way the firm has changed in the last 5, 10, 15 years. But it has a ruthless efficiency at maximizing PPP now so there's that.

KE definitely made a choice about 10 years ago to pursue a strategy to become "the wealthiest firm in the world (fueled by transactional)" vs. "become the best litigation shop in the world but not as big" and there's a sort of two roads diverged in a wood moment there. There's an alt. history where KE in 2021 is like a much bigger version of Susman rather than "The Richest Firm in the World."

As a potential lateral into KE on the litigation side, I would love to hear more about this. Do these posters above (or anyone with real experience with KE lit) think the culture there (on lit side) has deteriorated in some way from its past? Is there an inferiority complex vis-a-vis the transactional folks?

For example, one thing we sometimes hear about WLRK's lit is that it's in large part a service arm for their corporate side. Do folks at KE litigation think that way, sometimes, or has the firm moved in that sort of direction?

KE’s litigation department literally just won “Litigation Department of the Year.” It’s filled with industry-leading partners who rival firms would salivate over being able to poach. It takes on the biggest and most complex cases in the country, routinely, and wins them (at actual trials, not just the settlement table) routinely.

Having said that, has the culture changed? Yes. I’d liken it to being an A student, top of the class, for years and then suddenly a new student comes in who’s the A+ student. The dynamic changes.

KE 10 years ago was a shop of litigators, and then they had a bunch of other satellite practices (I’m sure head honchos in those practices would bristle at the description, but it’s true), including a very lucrative one in mid market M&A. The culture was decidedly litigation first in a Williams & Connolly sort of way.

Today, the power dynamic at the firm is tilted in favor of transactional. That’s a wild change over just a decade. The amount of money various transactional practices make now is eye-watering. The role of PE and more lately SPACs has changed a lot of the dynamics. There was also an infamous bloodletting a few years ago where many lit partners in the firm especially from the “time before” had their shares reduced in favor of transactional partners which let everyone know where things were moving.

Hopefully the above is helpful. KE is one of the great litigation firms in the country but it isn’t only great at litigation anymore, litigation is clearly in the second spot as far as driving profit now, and the culture is becoming more and more transactional by the day. There’s a great career to be made here as a litigator but if you’re looking for a pure lit play KE isn’t it and it’s going to become even less of it over the next 10 yrs I think.

I would add that even after the bloodletting occurred, the lit partners were then (and now even moreso) making way more than they would at any other shop. Yes it hurts to lose shares but it had to happen.

[Anonymous User]

Aren't we still also waiting on Kirkland? They will surely match the new DPS special bonus, right? Only question is when that special bonus will be paid out?

Kirkland always sends its (individualized, black box) bonus memos about a week before Christmas. They’ll beat the DPW scale (including special) and will be paid on 12/31.

Kirkland is never going to be a player in the market bonus wars. They wait for it to settle and then beat it by a little. That’s their well established MO.

Saying "a little" is both (x) only true if you are a ~3/2000--nothing wrong with that but also not really who Kirkland is looking to do a super retention job on; and (y) only true if you call a 20% premium over market "a little," which is a weird take when everyone was fairly happy about the DPW bump which was also 20% over the initial scale.

I get that a lot of people don't like Kirkland for whatever reason (culture, hours, etc), but minimizing the comp bump vs other firms is weird. They pay better than anyone but WLRK and some of the boutiques.

[Anonymous User]

There are stories from the "old days" where people were getting 2x, 2.5x, 3x multipliers but that was from a time when the firm was much smaller, more Chicago-focused, more litigation-focused and frankly just a different culture entirely. It would have been fun to have been here back then.

I think this about KE often, especially as a litigator, and more than one SP has made a comment that made me think they are salty about the way the firm has changed in the last 5, 10, 15 years. But it has a ruthless efficiency at maximizing PPP now so there's that.

KE definitely made a choice about 10 years ago to pursue a strategy to become "the wealthiest firm in the world (fueled by transactional)" vs. "become the best litigation shop in the world but not as big" and there's a sort of two roads diverged in a wood moment there. There's an alt. history where KE in 2021 is like a much bigger version of Susman rather than "The Richest Firm in the World."

As a potential lateral into KE on the litigation side, I would love to hear more about this. Do these posters above (or anyone with real experience with KE lit) think the culture there (on lit side) has deteriorated in some way from its past? Is there an inferiority complex vis-a-vis the transactional folks?

For example, one thing we sometimes hear about WLRK's lit is that it's in large part a service arm for their corporate side. Do folks at KE litigation think that way, sometimes, or has the firm moved in that sort of direction?

KE’s litigation department literally just won “Litigation Department of the Year.” It’s filled with industry-leading partners who rival firms would salivate over being able to poach. It takes on the biggest and most complex cases in the country, routinely, and wins them (at actual trials, not just the settlement table) routinely.

Having said that, has the culture changed? Yes. I’d liken it to being an A student, top of the class, for years and then suddenly a new student comes in who’s the A+ student. The dynamic changes.

KE 10 years ago was a shop of litigators, and then they had a bunch of other satellite practices (I’m sure head honchos in those practices would bristle at the description, but it’s true), including a very lucrative one in mid market M&A. The culture was decidedly litigation first in a Williams & Connolly sort of way.

Today, the power dynamic at the firm is tilted in favor of transactional. That’s a wild change over just a decade. The amount of money various transactional practices make now is eye-watering. The role of PE and more lately SPACs has changed a lot of the dynamics. There was also an infamous bloodletting a few years ago where many lit partners in the firm especially from the “time before” had their shares reduced in favor of transactional partners which let everyone know where things were moving.

Hopefully the above is helpful. KE is one of the great litigation firms in the country but it isn’t only great at litigation anymore, litigation is clearly in the second spot as far as driving profit now, and the culture is becoming more and more transactional by the day. There’s a great career to be made here as a litigator but if you’re looking for a pure lit play KE isn’t it and it’s going to become even less of it over the next 10 yrs I think.

I would add that even after the bloodletting occurred, the lit partners were then (and now even moreso) making way more than they would at any other shop. Yes it hurts to lose shares but it had to happen.

Very helpful insights, thank you!

[Anonymous User]

What about Gibson Dunn? New managing partner, in NY, ready to come over the top?

(Sorry for any false hope)

-GDC Associate

The only false hope there is yours, GDC Associate. No one -- no one -- expects GDC to pay more than it has to to keep up with the pack.

[Anonymous User]

A lot of firms give above market bonuses that are less, but close to the multipliers K&E offer for 2300/2500/etc. hours. K&E seems to be the highest at 2000 though.

[ElCuervo]

We made it 55 pages before this became a Kirkland chat. That has to be a record.

[Anonymous User]

We made it 55 pages before this became a Kirkland chat. That has to be a record.

Regular bonus season is over now--Milbank co-signing the DPW scale sealed that deal. The only question now is how much Big Daddy Kirkland will SHATTER the market.

[Right2BearArms]

There are stories from the "old days" where people were getting 2x, 2.5x, 3x multipliers but that was from a time when the firm was much smaller, more Chicago-focused, more litigation-focused and frankly just a different culture entirely. It would have been fun to have been here back then.

I think this about KE often, especially as a litigator, and more than one SP has made a comment that made me think they are salty about the way the firm has changed in the last 5, 10, 15 years. But it has a ruthless efficiency at maximizing PPP now so there's that.

KE definitely made a choice about 10 years ago to pursue a strategy to become "the wealthiest firm in the world (fueled by transactional)" vs. "become the best litigation shop in the world but not as big" and there's a sort of two roads diverged in a wood moment there. There's an alt. history where KE in 2021 is like a much bigger version of Susman rather than "The Richest Firm in the World."

To be fair, this was the decision made by many biglaw firms in the last 10-20 years. Look department rosters in 1990, 2005 and 2020 at many top firms (other than the few that have always been true M&A/securities shops), the trend of shrinking litigation practices replaced by more and more transactional/finance/bankruptcy attorneys with ever increasing billing rates charged to clients that really don't care about a legal bill that is .5% of their IPO value or their multi-billion dollar merger.

KE, to their credit, has been arguably the best at it.

Edit to add something to the actual point of this thread: Looks like "market" is established, and godspeed to all those who may surpass it. I, personally, look forward to my near 6 figure, after-tax bonus (maybe more if my firm surprises me) and hope like hell it is the last year I care about this crap.

[Anonymous User]

Hueston Hennigan used to start the bonus scale at 30 percent of your base salary. This year, they decided to pay only market, with the exception that those over 2,400 hours would receive an extra $5k. Associates, especially juniors, got screwed. I know one person who received less than they did last year despite billing like 2,700 hours.

Amazingly, the firm continues to tout itself as paying above market bonuses

[Anonymous User]

We made it 55 pages before this became a Kirkland chat. That has to be a record.

Took 55 pages for other firms to finally lock in the market that Kirkland will inevitably beat by some amount

[Anonymous User]

Hueston Hennigan calls are going out. Notwithstanding all the hype about above-market bonuses, seems like most people got only barely above DPW and many juniors didn’t get anywhere close to the 30% of base salary that used to be the firm’s starting point for bonuses. People are not thrilled, especially given the hours worked here compared to other firms.

What hours were worked here compared to CSM or any other top ten law firm? Hilarious.

[Anonymous User]

Cravath matched the special bonuses this morning. Source: am cravath associate.

are you guys salty about not leading the pack anymore (and that e.g. cadwallader associates make more than you if you both bill over 2200)?

Is this what kids these days call "big oof"?

Serious question, do we expect the rest of the firms that matched the original Cravath announcement to match the special?

[Barrred]

Cravath matched the special bonuses this morning. Source: am cravath associate.

are you guys salty about not leading the pack anymore (and that e.g. cadwallader associates make more than you if you both bill over 2200)?

Is this what kids these days call "big oof"?

Serious question, do we expect the rest of the firms that matched the original Cravath announcement to match the special?

Duh.

[TigerIsBack]

Cravath matched the special bonuses this morning. Source: am cravath associate.

are you guys salty about not leading the pack anymore (and that e.g. cadwallader associates make more than you if you both bill over 2200)?

Is this what kids these days call "big oof"?

Serious question, do we expect the rest of the firms that matched the original Cravath announcement to match the special?

Only a handful of firms matched Cravath and some of those have already matched the real DPW scale (I think FF, Cravath themselves, and one or 2 others I can't remember).

[Anonymous User]

Cravath matched the special bonuses this morning. Source: am cravath associate.

are you guys salty about not leading the pack anymore (and that e.g. cadwallader associates make more than you if you both bill over 2200)?

Is this what kids these days call "big oof"?

Serious question, do we expect the rest of the firms that matched the original Cravath announcement to match the special?

Duh.

Why so sure? Two of the firms that jumped the gun (Cadwalader and Hogan Lovells) are notoriously cheap and almost definitely hopped on the Cravath bandwagon to try to stick to that scale and not pay anything more. For that matter, I think it's time for the perennial DC stressing. Wouldn't be surprised if AP and CovingTTTon follow Hogan's lead rather than DPWs b/c DC is cheap as hell.

[Anonymous User]

Cravath matched the special bonuses this morning. Source: am cravath associate.

are you guys salty about not leading the pack anymore (and that e.g. cadwallader associates make more than you if you both bill over 2200)?

Is this what kids these days call "big oof"?

Serious question, do we expect the rest of the firms that matched the original Cravath announcement to match the special?

Duh.

Why so sure? Two of the firms that jumped the gun (Cadwalader and Hogan Lovells) are notoriously cheap and almost definitely hopped on the Cravath bandwagon to try to stick to that scale and not pay anything more. For that matter, I think it's time for the perennial DC stressing. Wouldn't be surprised if AP and CovingTTTon follow Hogan's lead rather than DPWs b/c DC is cheap as hell.

DC stressing is overblown now that anybody at A&P, Hogan, Covington could jump to Latham, Kirkland, Skadden, Gibson, Wilmer, etc. who all will be paying DPW scale (or more). The non-DC firms are growing in DC and are adding folks to more than just appellate lit practice groups here as well. The Covington partnership will grit their teeth and begrudgingly pay as they talk about their superior DC culture and prestige.

[Anonymous User]

Cravath matched the special bonuses this morning. Source: am cravath associate.

are you guys salty about not leading the pack anymore (and that e.g. cadwallader associates make more than you if you both bill over 2200)?

Is this what kids these days call "big oof"?

Serious question, do we expect the rest of the firms that matched the original Cravath announcement to match the special?

Duh.

No, this is definitely not a "duh" answer. Have we heard anything from some of the early Cravath matchers? Boies Schiller, for example? We have not heard that they will be giving these special bonuses that DPW announced after BSF's announcement matching the Cravath EOY bonus. Would not be surprised if firms like BSF try to sneak by and not give the DPW "special bonus" this time around.

[Anonymous User]

Norton Rose Fulbright full DPW match for NY, DC, TX, CA, plus salary raises for Denver (now on national market scale) and Minneapolis.

[malibustacy]

Cravath matched the special bonuses this morning. Source: am cravath associate.

are you guys salty about not leading the pack anymore (and that e.g. cadwallader associates make more than you if you both bill over 2200)?

Is this what kids these days call "big oof"?

Serious question, do we expect the rest of the firms that matched the original Cravath announcement to match the special?

Duh.

No, this is definitely not a "duh" answer. Have we heard anything from some of the early Cravath matchers? Boies Schiller, for example? We have not heard that they will be giving these special bonuses that DPW announced after BSF's announcement matching the Cravath EOY bonus. Would not be surprised if firms like BSF try to sneak by and not give the DPW "special bonus" this time around.

Come on man. It's a "duh" answer.

[Wanderingdrock]

Cravath matched the special bonuses this morning. Source: am cravath associate.

are you guys salty about not leading the pack anymore (and that e.g. cadwallader associates make more than you if you both bill over 2200)?

Is this what kids these days call "big oof"?

Serious question, do we expect the rest of the firms that matched the original Cravath announcement to match the special?

Duh.

Why so sure? Two of the firms that jumped the gun (Cadwalader and Hogan Lovells) are notoriously cheap and almost definitely hopped on the Cravath bandwagon to try to stick to that scale and not pay anything more. For that matter, I think it's time for the perennial DC stressing. Wouldn't be surprised if AP and CovingTTTon follow Hogan's lead rather than DPWs b/c DC is cheap as hell.

DC stressing is overblown now that anybody at A&P, Hogan, Covington could jump to Latham, Kirkland, Skadden, Gibson, Wilmer, etc. who all will be paying DPW scale (or more). The non-DC firms are growing in DC and are adding folks to more than just appellate lit practice groups here as well. The Covington partnership will grit their teeth and begrudgingly pay as they talk about their superior DC culture and prestige.

I'm at the DC office of a non-DC firm. We employ ~100 attorneys in this office and we're still hiring, with lateral signing bonuses and referral bonuses, and we've matched the DPW scale. I don't think there's any chance the DC-centric firms don't match, but if they don't.... You've got options.

[Barrred]

Cravath matched the special bonuses this morning. Source: am cravath associate.

are you guys salty about not leading the pack anymore (and that e.g. cadwallader associates make more than you if you both bill over 2200)?

Is this what kids these days call "big oof"?

Serious question, do we expect the rest of the firms that matched the original Cravath announcement to match the special?

Duh.

No, this is definitely not a "duh" answer. Have we heard anything from some of the early Cravath matchers? Boies Schiller, for example? We have not heard that they will be giving these special bonuses that DPW announced after BSF's announcement matching the Cravath EOY bonus. Would not be surprised if firms like BSF try to sneak by and not give the DPW "special bonus" this time around.

Firms that have pulled weird cheap shit in the past may try to do so again, but the "duh" answer applies to the vast vast majority of firms that always grit their teeth and pay market. DPW is market, so if your firm pays market, you're getting the special bonus.

[Anonymous User]

Cravath matched the special bonuses this morning. Source: am cravath associate.

are you guys salty about not leading the pack anymore (and that e.g. cadwallader associates make more than you if you both bill over 2200)?

Is this what kids these days call "big oof"?

Serious question, do we expect the rest of the firms that matched the original Cravath announcement to match the special?

Duh.

No, this is definitely not a "duh" answer. Have we heard anything from some of the early Cravath matchers? Boies Schiller, for example? We have not heard that they will be giving these special bonuses that DPW announced after BSF's announcement matching the Cravath EOY bonus. Would not be surprised if firms like BSF try to sneak by and not give the DPW "special bonus" this time around.

Come on man. It's a "duh" answer.

Lol this is why no one likes lawyers. This is clearly a duh answer. The special bonuses are market. Market paying firms will pay them.

Even if some random boutique like Boies Schiller doesn't, does anyone outside of Boies even care? No - they have no impact on the market.

Anyone that has an impact on the market will pay them. You should know by now if your firm matters to the market or not.

Edit: typo

[Anonymous User]

are you guys salty about not leading the pack anymore (and that e.g. cadwallader associates make more than you if you both bill over 2200)?

Is this what kids these days call "big oof"?

Serious question, do we expect the rest of the firms that matched the original Cravath announcement to match the special?

Duh.

No, this is definitely not a "duh" answer. Have we heard anything from some of the early Cravath matchers? Boies Schiller, for example? We have not heard that they will be giving these special bonuses that DPW announced after BSF's announcement matching the Cravath EOY bonus. Would not be surprised if firms like BSF try to sneak by and not give the DPW "special bonus" this time around.

Come on man. It's a "duh" answer.

Lol this is why no one likes lawyers. This is clearly a duh answer. The special bonuses are market. Market paying firms will pay them.

Even if some random boutique like Boies Schiller doesn't, does anyone outside of Boies even care? No - they have no impact on the market.

Anyone that has an impact on the market will pay them. You should know by now if your firm matters to the market or not.

Edit: typo

I don't even know why we're bringing Boies, an imploding niche firm that's run out of gas and seen mass partnership defections after various hijinks and misadventures by its founder, into this conversation. Boies isn't market and I'm not sure it will even exist five years from now.