DPW finance group Forum

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Thanks all.
Can anyone be kind enough to tell me what exactly working on a commitment paper looks like? Done some basic research but the practical law definition obviously doesn't tell me why everyone hates them.

It's a bunch of banks bidding on the rights to lead acquisition financings.

For an associate, this means drafting separate, fairly long-form agreements on super short notice whereby a bank would commit to providing financing on certain terms in case the underlying M&A deal actually signs. They always come on compressed timelines. For me, they always came Thursday or Friday and gutted a weekend because they had to be done ASAP.

That's helpful. Thank you! Any idea how many weekends can I expect to be ruined by these papers? Also, if they are form documents, does it mean the work is editing some terms in the precedent? Or is it more complicated than that? Just trying to get a sense of how much time it would take over the weekend. Even a broad range would be super helpful.

[Anonymous User]

OP, while I understand trying to do your homework with this big decision, Cleary general corporate sounds like a way better opportunity—what are your reservations there? If I was in your position it’d be a done deal already just on the grounds that the work is more interesting, exit ops more varied (and better), etc.

Btw, congrats on these offers. You have great options.

[Anonymous User]

OP, while I understand trying to do your homework with this big decision, Cleary general corporate sounds like a way better opportunity—what are your reservations there? If I was in your position it’d be a done deal already just on the grounds that the work is more interesting, exit ops more varied (and better), etc.

Btw, congrats on these offers. You have great options.

Thanks! Yes, Cleary is def a great option and am slightly leaning that way. But,

1. Want to wind up in Asia in a few years. Dpw is a much bigger name brand than Cleary there. Cleary is great in Europe, though.

2. Over the summer, I worked with attorneys from all corporate groups and everyone had some complaint or the other with their work (even if they were overall happy). So just gathering facts about finance that will help me understand whether there's any chance I may find it tolerable.

Appreciate your concern and know where you're coming from. Thanks a lot.

[Anonymous User]

When’s your deadline? You may have time to call your interviewers at each, or alumni, and dig deeper and determine who you like more. Of course that’s all biased info and sometimes canned pitches, but the people you’re working with should be a key factor too imo. Cleary is big enough here and in Europe that I’m sure it would be respected in other markets as well, but I agree that DPW has a bigger international brand. Good luck with your decision!

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Thanks all.
Can anyone be kind enough to tell me what exactly working on a commitment paper looks like? Done some basic research but the practical law definition obviously doesn't tell me why everyone hates them.

It's a bunch of banks bidding on the rights to lead acquisition financings.

For an associate, this means drafting separate, fairly long-form agreements on super short notice whereby a bank would commit to providing financing on certain terms in case the underlying M&A deal actually signs. They always come on compressed timelines. For me, they always came Thursday or Friday and gutted a weekend because they had to be done ASAP.

That's helpful. Thank you! Any idea how many weekends can I expect to be ruined by these papers? Also, if they are form documents, does it mean the work is editing some terms in the precedent? Or is it more complicated than that? Just trying to get a sense of how much time it would take over the weekend. Even a broad range would be super helpful.

Almost all weekends, frankly. I did a Finance rotation at a predominantly lender-side firm and they consumed at least 2/3 weekends (not that other work didn't occupy the other 1/3), and it would only get worse if I were to get more senior in that group.

There are a lot of changes from precedent. It's not something you can crank out in an hour or two, and there may be some back and forth with your bank clients (so several turns) over the weekend, too. Even if you're not billing nonstop, you may not be able to leave your apartment/house/whatever to do anything.

Is the DPW offer strictly for Credit? You can't rotate? If you can try other stuff in addition to Credit, that's for the best. If you move to an Asian office it's probably more capital markets and some M&A there anyway.

[Definitely Not North]

Any idea how many weekends can I expect to be ruined by these papers? Also, if they are form documents, does it mean the work is editing some terms in the precedent? Or is it more complicated than that? Just trying to get a sense of how much time it would take over the weekend. Even a broad range would be super helpful.

It's less about the aggregate number of minutes you spend typing and more that in addition to the pure drafting you have to be ready to drop everything to field comments from the bank/borrower counsel/the partner, be available for calls with any of them on little notice, etc., almost always over the course of a weekend. The weekend is dead even if you don't spend all of it literally drafting/working.

But also getting into this much detail on commitment papers (which do suck) is kind of missing the point that you have two biglaw practice areas that you can fully expect to suck in their own ways, except one is in a practice area that will set you up with much better/broader exit options and another that will make exiting a struggle. The 7 spot higher Vault ranking won't make it feel better when you're a burned out fourth or fifth year looking to bail, but big companies auto-reject your in-house applications and firms think you're too senior to retool.

ETA: Seeing you're looking at Asia -- don't know about that. Above assumes U.S. exits/career.

[Anonymous User]

DPW Hong Kong is a pretty well-known sweathouse in HK (worse hours than almost all peer firms) ... I would be careful if you wish to end up in that market.

[Anonymous User]

DPW Hong Kong is a pretty well-known sweathouse in HK (worse hours than almost all peer firms) ... I would be careful if you wish to end up in that market.

Would like to know more about the hours at DPW HK. Not OP but think the idea is not necessarily to do an internal transfer. Guess the thinking is DPW's name on resume would open up more opportunities?

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Thanks all. Commitment papers do sound nightmarish. Deadline over the next couple weeks. Have been speaking with folks. DPW offer is strictly finance.
Yes, heard horror stories about DPW HK. Don't think I have the language skills to work there anyway. As the previous anon said, the idea is to lateral.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Thanks all. Commitment papers do sound nightmarish. Deadline over the next couple weeks. Have been speaking with folks. DPW offer is strictly finance.
Yes, heard horror stories about DPW HK. Don't think I have the language skills to work there anyway. As the previous anon said, the idea is to lateral.

I'm not in Lev Fin/Banking finance, but I am in a finance group and have plenty of friends in lev fin. I think this site is being overly down on the practice. There's definitely pros/cons:

Pros:
1. High learning curve which means the practice gets easier and easier the more senior you get. Your first 2-3 years will be rough, but after that you really will be cranking it out without issue. Especially when you have a junior to turn comments for you. You'll run into the same issues and deeply understand them and know how to fix them. This may sound boring, but honestly all transactional work is boring, so it's nice to actually know what you're doing and grind through it.

2. It's skilled work. Ever read an SPA or an NDA? Shit's super simple. Credit Agreements and Security Agreements not so much. It's more substance than style, and generally no one is going to freak out about a typo or whatever because people need to stay focused on the often convoluted and confusing substance of the agreements. Also if you're good - you're good. No one gives a shit about anything else. It doesn't matter what you sound like/look like/if you want to WFH, etc. If you can do the job, then you can do the job. Corporate work doesn't get difficult/complicated until several years in. As junior to early mid - it's all process/diligence.

3. Predictable timeline. Your weekend will get blown up on commitment papers, but you'll know it. It sucks, but if your clients are lenders, you know to expect papers on Thursday/Friday to work through the weekend and chill Monday through Wednesday. It's not ideal, but it's fairly predictable and you can arrange your life around it. This is much nicer than thinking you have nothing and are free for the weekend, when suddenly you get a call at 8pm on Friday to work.

4. Diversity. Take a look at any firm's partnership across practice groups. You'll notice that there are significantly more minority and women partners in finance than in corporate groups. Why? Because #2 and 3 above. It's much easier to recognize good work (rather than just being part of the old boys club) and is easier to plan family life around when you have a predictable schedule. (I understand this might be a controversial take, but it's something I and many others in finance have observed.)

Cons: These have been mostly covered, so I'll keep it short.

1. Weekend papers will destroy your weekend. Really not great if you're 20-something and want to enjoy an active social life.

2. Exit opportunities are worse than corporate. Your limited to financial institutions pretty much.

3. Geographic limitations. If you don't want to live in NYC/London etc. for the rest of your life, there really isn't much of an option for you without eventually retooling/going in a different direction.

4. Clients know more than you. This can be a pro and a con actually. The pro is that there is very little hand holding needed for your clients. The con is that at times you will feel like just a pencil pusher for the real dealmakers, and they will know when you fuck up.

5. Limited scope of work. You'll become an expert on very, very detailed and nuanced points, but you will not be able to do even the most basic legal work of something like being able to form a corporate entity.

[Anonymous User]

Agree with the above poster. I still think those cons significantly outweigh the pros, though. Keep your future options open OP. You’re going to have a headache if you get in there and don’t like the bank work.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Thanks all. Commitment papers do sound nightmarish. Deadline over the next couple weeks. Have been speaking with folks. DPW offer is strictly finance.
Yes, heard horror stories about DPW HK. Don't think I have the language skills to work there anyway. As the previous anon said, the idea is to lateral.

I'm not in Lev Fin/Banking finance, but I am in a finance group and have plenty of friends in lev fin. I think this site is being overly down on the practice. There's definitely pros/cons:

Pros:
1. High learning curve which means the practice gets easier and easier the more senior you get. Your first 2-3 years will be rough, but after that you really will be cranking it out without issue. Especially when you have a junior to turn comments for you. You'll run into the same issues and deeply understand them and know how to fix them. This may sound boring, but honestly all transactional work is boring, so it's nice to actually know what you're doing and grind through it.

2. It's skilled work. Ever read an SPA or an NDA? Shit's super simple. Credit Agreements and Security Agreements not so much. It's more substance than style, and generally no one is going to freak out about a typo or whatever because people need to stay focused on the often convoluted and confusing substance of the agreements. Also if you're good - you're good. No one gives a shit about anything else. It doesn't matter what you sound like/look like/if you want to WFH, etc. If you can do the job, then you can do the job. Corporate work doesn't get difficult/complicated until several years in. As junior to early mid - it's all process/diligence.

3. Predictable timeline. Your weekend will get blown up on commitment papers, but you'll know it. It sucks, but if your clients are lenders, you know to expect papers on Thursday/Friday to work through the weekend and chill Monday through Wednesday. It's not ideal, but it's fairly predictable and you can arrange your life around it. This is much nicer than thinking you have nothing and are free for the weekend, when suddenly you get a call at 8pm on Friday to work.

4. Diversity. Take a look at any firm's partnership across practice groups. You'll notice that there are significantly more minority and women partners in finance than in corporate groups. Why? Because #2 and 3 above. It's much easier to recognize good work (rather than just being part of the old boys club) and is easier to plan family life around when you have a predictable schedule. (I understand this might be a controversial take, but it's something I and many others in finance have observed.)

Cons: These have been mostly covered, so I'll keep it short.

1. Weekend papers will destroy your weekend. Really not great if you're 20-something and want to enjoy an active social life.

2. Exit opportunities are worse than corporate. Your limited to financial institutions pretty much.

3. Geographic limitations. If you don't want to live in NYC/London etc. for the rest of your life, there really isn't much of an option for you without eventually retooling/going in a different direction.

4. Clients know more than you. This can be a pro and a con actually. The pro is that there is very little hand holding needed for your clients. The con is that at times you will feel like just a pencil pusher for the real dealmakers, and they will know when you fuck up.

5. Limited scope of work. You'll become an expert on very, very detailed and nuanced points, but you will not be able to do even the most basic legal work of something like being able to form a corporate entity.

OP here. Pure gold! Thanks! Can't think of anything but any way I can reach out to you with a couple follow ups?

[CovidLurker]

OP here. Thanks all. Commitment papers do sound nightmarish. Deadline over the next couple weeks. Have been speaking with folks. DPW offer is strictly finance.
Yes, heard horror stories about DPW HK. Don't think I have the language skills to work there anyway. As the previous anon said, the idea is to lateral.

I'm not in Lev Fin/Banking finance, but I am in a finance group and have plenty of friends in lev fin. I think this site is being overly down on the practice. There's definitely pros/cons:

Pros:
1. High learning curve which means the practice gets easier and easier the more senior you get. Your first 2-3 years will be rough, but after that you really will be cranking it out without issue. Especially when you have a junior to turn comments for you. You'll run into the same issues and deeply understand them and know how to fix them. This may sound boring, but honestly all transactional work is boring, so it's nice to actually know what you're doing and grind through it.

2. It's skilled work. Ever read an SPA or an NDA? Shit's super simple. Credit Agreements and Security Agreements not so much. It's more substance than style, and generally no one is going to freak out about a typo or whatever because people need to stay focused on the often convoluted and confusing substance of the agreements. Also if you're good - you're good. No one gives a shit about anything else. It doesn't matter what you sound like/look like/if you want to WFH, etc. If you can do the job, then you can do the job. Corporate work doesn't get difficult/complicated until several years in. As junior to early mid - it's all process/diligence.

3. Predictable timeline. Your weekend will get blown up on commitment papers, but you'll know it. It sucks, but if your clients are lenders, you know to expect papers on Thursday/Friday to work through the weekend and chill Monday through Wednesday. It's not ideal, but it's fairly predictable and you can arrange your life around it. This is much nicer than thinking you have nothing and are free for the weekend, when suddenly you get a call at 8pm on Friday to work.

4. Diversity. Take a look at any firm's partnership across practice groups. You'll notice that there are significantly more minority and women partners in finance than in corporate groups. Why? Because #2 and 3 above. It's much easier to recognize good work (rather than just being part of the old boys club) and is easier to plan family life around when you have a predictable schedule. (I understand this might be a controversial take, but it's something I and many others in finance have observed.)

Cons: These have been mostly covered, so I'll keep it short.

1. Weekend papers will destroy your weekend. Really not great if you're 20-something and want to enjoy an active social life.

2. Exit opportunities are worse than corporate. Your limited to financial institutions pretty much.

3. Geographic limitations. If you don't want to live in NYC/London etc. for the rest of your life, there really isn't much of an option for you without eventually retooling/going in a different direction.

4. Clients know more than you. This can be a pro and a con actually. The pro is that there is very little hand holding needed for your clients. The con is that at times you will feel like just a pencil pusher for the real dealmakers, and they will know when you fuck up.

5. Limited scope of work. You'll become an expert on very, very detailed and nuanced points, but you will not be able to do even the most basic legal work of something like being able to form a corporate entity.

OP here. Pure gold! Thanks! Can't think of anything but any way I can reach out to you with a couple follow ups?

OP of long post - PM me.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Thanks all. Commitment papers do sound nightmarish. Deadline over the next couple weeks. Have been speaking with folks. DPW offer is strictly finance.
Yes, heard horror stories about DPW HK. Don't think I have the language skills to work there anyway. As the previous anon said, the idea is to lateral.

I'm not in Lev Fin/Banking finance, but I am in a finance group and have plenty of friends in lev fin. I think this site is being overly down on the practice. There's definitely pros/cons:

Pros:
1. High learning curve which means the practice gets easier and easier the more senior you get. Your first 2-3 years will be rough, but after that you really will be cranking it out without issue. Especially when you have a junior to turn comments for you. You'll run into the same issues and deeply understand them and know how to fix them. This may sound boring, but honestly all transactional work is boring, so it's nice to actually know what you're doing and grind through it.

2. It's skilled work. Ever read an SPA or an NDA? Shit's super simple. Credit Agreements and Security Agreements not so much. It's more substance than style, and generally no one is going to freak out about a typo or whatever because people need to stay focused on the often convoluted and confusing substance of the agreements. Also if you're good - you're good. No one gives a shit about anything else. It doesn't matter what you sound like/look like/if you want to WFH, etc. If you can do the job, then you can do the job. Corporate work doesn't get difficult/complicated until several years in. As junior to early mid - it's all process/diligence.

3. Predictable timeline. Your weekend will get blown up on commitment papers, but you'll know it. It sucks, but if your clients are lenders, you know to expect papers on Thursday/Friday to work through the weekend and chill Monday through Wednesday. It's not ideal, but it's fairly predictable and you can arrange your life around it. This is much nicer than thinking you have nothing and are free for the weekend, when suddenly you get a call at 8pm on Friday to work.

4. Diversity. Take a look at any firm's partnership across practice groups. You'll notice that there are significantly more minority and women partners in finance than in corporate groups. Why? Because #2 and 3 above. It's much easier to recognize good work (rather than just being part of the old boys club) and is easier to plan family life around when you have a predictable schedule. (I understand this might be a controversial take, but it's something I and many others in finance have observed.)

Cons: These have been mostly covered, so I'll keep it short.

1. Weekend papers will destroy your weekend. Really not great if you're 20-something and want to enjoy an active social life.

2. Exit opportunities are worse than corporate. Your limited to financial institutions pretty much.

3. Geographic limitations. If you don't want to live in NYC/London etc. for the rest of your life, there really isn't much of an option for you without eventually retooling/going in a different direction.

4. Clients know more than you. This can be a pro and a con actually. The pro is that there is very little hand holding needed for your clients. The con is that at times you will feel like just a pencil pusher for the real dealmakers, and they will know when you fuck up.

5. Limited scope of work. You'll become an expert on very, very detailed and nuanced points, but you will not be able to do even the most basic legal work of something like being able to form a corporate entity.

OP here. Pure gold! Thanks! Can't think of anything but any way I can reach out to you with a couple follow ups?

OP of long post - PM me.

Thanks. PMed.

[Anonymous User]

OP, any update? Curious which one you took!

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Still deciding. Requested DPW to allow rotation. Will update.

[tamwafle]

I just jumped ship from DPW finance if you want to chat feel free to PM me.

[Anonymous User]

I just jumped ship from DPW finance if you want to chat feel free to PM me.

Thank you! PMed.

[Anonymous User]

OP feel free to also pm me if you have any questions on this. I would agree with everything mentioned about commitment papers. I did not enjoy this AT ALL. It always ruined weekends and just like others posted it usually required me to be on standby all the time. As part of the commitment papers process there are also "grids" which usually consist of a word table of the key terms of the financing before parties move to commitment papers. This is also an annoying process and the sponsor and lenders want to get these agreed over the course of a few days which is really irritating as you have to factor in time to go through responses, speak with the partner, time to speak with the client etc.

The people at DPW are pretty nice but your counterparts are usually firms like Cahill (ok), Kirkland (difficult to work with in my experience) etc and they all work on the crazy timelines too so always dropping commitment papers on you late on a Friday with responses requested by Monday.

Commitment papers are also really complicated and move at such a fast pace (usually because the client is competing in an auction process for the target company) and it's always compressed over a weekend. I think someone above mentioned that this sometimes means you chill Monday- Weds...I wish this was true for me. Even after a crappy weekend Monday- Wednesday means being buried on other deal work and I would be lucky if I could squeeze in 45 minutes to go to the gym. I tried to get food once late on a Friday night once around 11pm and had to turn around and go back home because something urgent came in and just couldn't wait.

If you're thinking about potential exit options to go in house I would take the general corporate role. I can't think of a reason why anyone would enjoy doing leveraged finance given the hellish hours and it's predictably unpredictable nature unless you have a real passion for leverage ratios and don't have any hobbies or enjoy spending time with people outside of work.

[Anonymous User]

OP here, thanks all. Dropped DPW Finance from the consideration set. Accepted Cleary.