Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain Forum

[Anonymous User]

7th yr, counsel, big fancy firm. Recently, I can’t feel adrenaline anymore. I don’t seem to feel fear or urgency, or anything at all. But without those feeling, I’m worse than useless — I’m missing deadlines, skipping meetings, ignoring email — it’s objectively awful. Sometimes I cannot get myself to care enough to type the password into my laptop.

Partners have commented. Snarled. One wrote an email so scathing I probably would have run into traffic if I’d read anything of the sort when I was junior. But, I didn’t feel anything when I read it. I actually responded that there were unmet expectations at both ends of the equation, and then I logged out for the day. (Ha!)

I want this to stop. I feel like I’m trapped in a runaway train and I’m powerless to stop myself from destroying my career. But I can’t feel anything. And apparently, without the constant fear, there’s no point to any of this.

I keep saying “I’m better not,” “I’m back,” and I’ll turn it around “next week” or “next time;” but I’m not, and I’m regularly going to bed instead of meeting deadlines.

It’s crazy. I’ve worked so doggedly the past decade. And now I’m just watching it all slip between my fingers. When I try to make myself think about a realistic next step here, I start wishing I lived in a Zombie apocalypse. Seriously.

I don’t know what to do. And I can’t force myself to care, because I can’t feel anything anymore.

Help… I guess.

[papermateflair]

Have you seen a therapist/doctor? It sounds like you are dealing with some mental health challenges if it's impacting your work. When was the last time you took a vacation? I would take a week off, go see a doctor, and then take FMLA leave to recover from this. Tell the partners you're dealing with a medical issue and then take the time you need to work through this.

Edit to add: I'm sorry you're going through this - please take care of yourself and be kind to yourself.

[MrTooToo]

It sounds like you're suffering from genuine burnout -- not just run of the mill "I'm stressed and tired" that many of us go through from time to time. It's hard to give specific advice about this without knowing more, but I'd urge you to take serious action now and to not throw away your career (or end up getting sicker or in a worse psychological state). Law firms in 2021 are not law firms in 1981; they tend to be very supportive of people going through things like this and I suspect you could easily arrange for a couple weeks to step away from your matters on the premise you're going to take some time off and also begin seeking treatment. It sounds like you're very much in the self-sabotaging stage of burnout i.e., just not giving a shit anymore; that's not a place you want to be in. You need to communicate with people in your firm, come up with a firm plan (which probably means some rest & recreation time off + starting to talk to a shrink). I'd also encourage you to think about longer term restructuring of your life to make sure you're getting the mental health breaks you need -- do you have hobbies? are you seeing friends? going to church? working out? time with family? I know it's trite but biglaw is truly a marathon not a sprint and if you want to keep going in this profession you have to think about things long term. Part of the long term thinking means making sure the conditions are present for you to take care of yourself.

[Anonymous User]

Not a real doctor, obviously (only a juris doctor), but you are describing classic symptoms of depression. Lots of folks think depression = thoughts of suicide, but that isn't necessarily the case, and you sound like you've got it.

Posting anonymously so that I can say: I've experience depression symptoms and was diagnosed with anxiety, and I'm now on an anxiety medication which is also used to treat depression. It took a miserable week to begin to take effect (and I understand I'm very lucky that the kick-in time was that short), but now I feel wonderful. I can do my job again, I can take care of my family, and I enjoy the good things in life again instead of constantly just dreading the next email. It can seem daunting to go through the process of speaking to a doctor or therapist (where do we find the time or motivation?) but either or both can be helpful. It can seem daunting to take the time you need to work through the treatment or go on the meds ("3 weeks to take effect, during which time I'll feel even more like shit!? How does a Biglaw associate/counsel/partner manage it?!") but in many cases medication is a big part of the right (temporary or long term) answer. And the weeks or months it can take to see real results from treatment is worth it - the blink of an eye, really - when you compare it to your career or your family life.

[Anonymous User]

I second all of the advice above about asking for and receiving help, both within the firm and out. Putting that aside, not to be crude or disrespectful, but it seems like you are on the trajectory to be fired sooner rather than later. Unless you have enormous reserves of goodwill built up with key partners, or your hours are still really high despite the burnout (which seems unlikely), someone in your position may be asked to look elsewhere at the end of the year. In that case, you may want to consider focusing your energies on applying for new positions - in house, another less caustic firm, whatever you’re interested in that is not this brand of biglaw, ect. Once you have something lined up, take a long interim period between jobs — more than three months. This is not your entire life, and you have a lot more to you and to offer than this job.

[Anonymous User]

I am not at the level of desperation and DGAF that you mention, but I am a 6th year in a vortex of work right now with no immediate end in sight and am also reaching my breaking point. This life is not a normal human existence and I have come to the conclusion that the money is not worth it, esp. as a more senior attorney who has paid off loans and accumulated substantial savings. I know it is hard to find time to do this with a BigLaw schedule, but I would start firing out some in-house apps ASAP. The process can take a while and even submitting the apps can give you some feeling of hope.

Try to hang in there and know that you are not alone. BigLaw is a miserable existence, esp. in the last year and a half for transactional folks.

[Anonymous User]

... I am a 6th year in a vortex of work right now with no immediate end in sight and am also reaching my breaking point. This life is not a normal human existence and I have come to the conclusion that the money is not worth it, esp. as a more senior attorney who has paid off loans and accumulated substantial savings.

I'm a new partner, making a significant multiple of what I made as an associate, and I'm in the same place -- 100% questioning whether the money is worth the stress and time commitment.

[Definitely Not North]

... I am a 6th year in a vortex of work right now with no immediate end in sight and am also reaching my breaking point. This life is not a normal human existence and I have come to the conclusion that the money is not worth it, esp. as a more senior attorney who has paid off loans and accumulated substantial savings.

I'm a new partner, making a significant multiple of what I made as an associate, and I'm in the same place -- 100% questioning whether the money is worth the stress and time commitment.

you guys could literally retire once you hit, say, $2mm in the market and live off a 4% SWR ($80k draw a year). Before you hit that, sure grind away. After hitting your number, though -- you don't need to actually stop working, but what's the point of killing yourself

[Anonymous User]

you guys could literally retire once you hit, say, $2mm in the market and live off a 4% SWR ($80k draw a year). Before you hit that, sure grind away. After hitting your number, though -- you don't need to actually stop working, but what's the point of killing yourself

Well, the kids' school alone is more than $80k per year, and I put a lot of value on that. The reality is that my spouse and I like what a certain amount of money gets us. Honestly, getting paid half what I do would be totally sufficient -- kids' school, nice house, and one good vacation per year -- but I'm in lit, and it's unlikely I could find an in-house job paying that.

If there was a dial, I'd turn it, but the whole point of this thread is that it's not that simple.

[Anonymous User]

you guys could literally retire once you hit, say, $2mm in the market and live off a 4% SWR ($80k draw a year). Before you hit that, sure grind away. After hitting your number, though -- you don't need to actually stop working, but what's the point of killing yourself

Well, the kids' school alone is more than $80k per year, and I put a lot of value on that. The reality is that my spouse and I like what a certain amount of money gets us. Honestly, getting paid half what I do would be totally sufficient -- kids' school, nice house, and one good vacation per year -- but I'm in lit, and it's unlikely I could find an in-house job paying that.

If there was a dial, I'd turn it, but the whole point of this thread is that it's not that simple.

Probably not the place for this, but I've always been curious about this - assuming you're not talking about college expenses, what does $80k/year in primary education get you that's better than public school or even just a cheaper private school? Not a flame, just genuinely curious on what the merits of a $40k/year K-12 education is.

[Anonymous User]

you guys could literally retire once you hit, say, $2mm in the market and live off a 4% SWR ($80k draw a year). Before you hit that, sure grind away. After hitting your number, though -- you don't need to actually stop working, but what's the point of killing yourself

Well, the kids' school alone is more than $80k per year, and I put a lot of value on that. The reality is that my spouse and I like what a certain amount of money gets us. Honestly, getting paid half what I do would be totally sufficient -- kids' school, nice house, and one good vacation per year -- but I'm in lit, and it's unlikely I could find an in-house job paying that.

If there was a dial, I'd turn it, but the whole point of this thread is that it's not that simple.

Probably not the place for this, but I've always been curious about this - assuming you're not talking about college expenses, what does $80k/year in primary education get you that's better than public school or even just a cheaper private school? Not a flame, just genuinely curious on what the merits of a $40k/year K-12 education is.

[Anonymous User]

Probably not the place for this, but I've always been curious about this - assuming you're not talking about college expenses, what does $80k/year in primary education get you that's better than public school or even just a cheaper private school? Not a flame, just genuinely curious on what the merits of a $40k/year K-12 education is.

Don't want to out myself in this thread for obvious reasons, but if you reply with your username I can DM you.

[The Lsat Airbender]

you guys could literally retire once you hit, say, $2mm in the market and live off a 4% SWR ($80k draw a year). Before you hit that, sure grind away. After hitting your number, though -- you don't need to actually stop working, but what's the point of killing yourself

Well, the kids' school alone is more than $80k per year, and I put a lot of value on that. The reality is that my spouse and I like what a certain amount of money gets us. Honestly, getting paid half what I do would be totally sufficient -- kids' school, nice house, and one good vacation per year -- but I'm in lit, and it's unlikely I could find an in-house job paying that.

If there was a dial, I'd turn it, but the whole point of this thread is that it's not that simple.

Probably not the place for this, but I've always been curious about this - assuming you're not talking about college expenses, what does $80k/year in primary education get you that's better than public school or even just a cheaper private school? Not a flame, just genuinely curious on what the merits of a $40k/year K-12 education is.

If you never get to see your kids, it's a good way to communicate that you love them

[thisismytlsuername]

You can be assured that your kids never have to be anywhere near poor kids, or even middle class kids.

[Anonymous User]

I feel for you, OP.

I see one solution and one solution alone: set yourself a final day at the Firm and circle it on the calendar (preferably after some bonus event).

Basically cease to grind at that point - they are not in a position to be getting rid of associates at this time, especially senior associates. Give yourself the luxury of coasting a bit - but make it proactive coasting (e.g., you've set a date to leave and are leaving instead of just feeling some pangs of guilt for not doing something).

Then start a job search but do it at your own pace. If you find what you want, give yourself a nice breather in between.

You are a talented person with a great deal to offer outside of just the biglaw sphere. Time to get out of there. Plus, in my experience, the drive does not return without a drastic change. Go make it.

[Anonymous User]

Probably not the place for this, but I've always been curious about this - assuming you're not talking about college expenses, what does $80k/year in primary education get you that's better than public school or even just a cheaper private school? Not a flame, just genuinely curious on what the merits of a $40k/year K-12 education is.

Don't want to out myself in this thread for obvious reasons, but if you reply with your username I can DM you.

Mistakenly used anon reply.

[Anonatty]

Probably not the place for this, but I've always been curious about this - assuming you're not talking about college expenses, what does $80k/year in primary education get you that's better than public school or even just a cheaper private school? Not a flame, just genuinely curious on what the merits of a $40k/year K-12 education is.

Don't want to out myself in this thread for obvious reasons, but if you reply with your username I can DM you.

Not PP, but OP, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts if you don't mind sharing them via DM.

[Wallyplatypus]

Probably not the place for this, but I've always been curious about this - assuming you're not talking about college expenses, what does $80k/year in primary education get you that's better than public school or even just a cheaper private school? Not a flame, just genuinely curious on what the merits of a $40k/year K-12 education is.

Don't want to out myself in this thread for obvious reasons, but if you reply with your username I can DM you.

Not PP, but OP, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts if you don't mind sharing them via DM.

Same here!

[Anonymous User]

7th yr, counsel, big fancy firm. Recently, I can’t feel adrenaline anymore. I don’t seem to feel fear or urgency, or anything at all. But without those feeling, I’m worse than useless — I’m missing deadlines, skipping meetings, ignoring email — it’s objectively awful. Sometimes I cannot get myself to care enough to type the password into my laptop.

Partners have commented. Snarled. One wrote an email so scathing I probably would have run into traffic if I’d read anything of the sort when I was junior. But, I didn’t feel anything when I read it. I actually responded that there were unmet expectations at both ends of the equation, and then I logged out for the day. (Ha!)

I want this to stop. I feel like I’m trapped in a runaway train and I’m powerless to stop myself from destroying my career. But I can’t feel anything. And apparently, without the constant fear, there’s no point to any of this.

I keep saying “I’m better not,” “I’m back,” and I’ll turn it around “next week” or “next time;” but I’m not, and I’m regularly going to bed instead of meeting deadlines.

It’s crazy. I’ve worked so doggedly the past decade. And now I’m just watching it all slip between my fingers. When I try to make myself think about a realistic next step here, I start wishing I lived in a Zombie apocalypse. Seriously.

I don’t know what to do. And I can’t force myself to care, because I can’t feel anything anymore.

Help… I guess.

First, you’re not alone - there are lots of us who’ve been through this. For me, it was feeling like my brain was in a fog, turning in an assignment that was ridiculously subpar, and getting chewed out about it by an otherwise nice partner. At that point I realized that being in my mid-30s and crying at my desk four times a week, and being scared to go to the gym even when I had time, wasn’t normal.

As to next steps: as others have said, either talk to your GP/therapist or get a recommendation for a psychiatrist if you don’t already have one. Be as open as you can - with HR if not a partner - and say you need medical leave either before or after you get a diagnosis. Professionals can suggest a time frame that works.

Assuming you get the time you need, obviously follow the doctor’s advice. I can also recommend disconnecting from work as much as possible, trying to do things you wouldn’t do otherwise (reading books, writing, movies, long walks, any musical instruments that have lain dormant for a while all help).

Most of all, be kind to yourself. We’re all in intense jobs, and it sounds like you haven’t had a real break for a decade. Let yourself sleep in or do nothing for a day if that’s what you need. And you have experience and the market’s big and hot enough for you to have other options if you don’t want to go back to the current firm.

It took me a while to accept that depression could be more than feeling suicidal. It was probably a couple of years too late when I took the right remedial measures, but it can be done. Good luck, and I’m sorry you’re going through this.

[feminist.supporter]

you guys could literally retire once you hit, say, $2mm in the market and live off a 4% SWR ($80k draw a year). Before you hit that, sure grind away. After hitting your number, though -- you don't need to actually stop working, but what's the point of killing yourself

Well, the kids' school alone is more than $80k per year, and I put a lot of value on that. The reality is that my spouse and I like what a certain amount of money gets us. Honestly, getting paid half what I do would be totally sufficient -- kids' school, nice house, and one good vacation per year -- but I'm in lit, and it's unlikely I could find an in-house job paying that.

If there was a dial, I'd turn it, but the whole point of this thread is that it's not that simple.

Probably not the place for this, but I've always been curious about this - assuming you're not talking about college expenses, what does $80k/year in primary education get you that's better than public school or even just a cheaper private school? Not a flame, just genuinely curious on what the merits of a $40k/year K-12 education is.

the quality of classmates, and the atmosphere of the school.

[junaman]

Probably not the place for this, but I've always been curious about this - assuming you're not talking about college expenses, what does $80k/year in primary education get you that's better than public school or even just a cheaper private school? Not a flame, just genuinely curious on what the merits of a $40k/year K-12 education is.

Don't want to out myself in this thread for obvious reasons, but if you reply with your username I can DM you.

Not PP, but OP, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts if you don't mind sharing them via DM.

Same here!

Same!

[12YrsAnAssociate]

I took a full month off last year after winning a MSJ, and I 100% needed it. I came back refreshed (although I doubt I'll ever have the vigor/energy/fear I had as a junior). Think about it.

This year will be the first time ever I'll come in under 2000 client billable hours because of that month, but whatever. I needed it.

I felt your whole post in my bones. I've never been where you are, but I definitely have been close.

[k_moreno]

I took a full month off last year after winning a MSJ, and I 100% needed it. I came back refreshed (although I doubt I'll ever have the vigor/energy/fear I had as a junior). Think about it.

This year will be the first time ever I'll come in under 2000 client billable hours because of that month, but whatever. I needed it.

I felt your whole post in my bones. I've never been where you are, but I definitely have been close.

I know a senior associate at a V10 who took six months off to basically just travel. They probably would have quit by now if not for that (and I doubt they're in it for the long haul). Everybody is so busy that they'll do anything to keep people around.

[nixy]

Probably not the place for this, but I've always been curious about this - assuming you're not talking about college expenses, what does $80k/year in primary education get you that's better than public school or even just a cheaper private school? Not a flame, just genuinely curious on what the merits of a $40k/year K-12 education is.

the quality of classmates, and the atmosphere of the school.

So you mean rich.

[thisismytlsuername]

Probably not the place for this, but I've always been curious about this - assuming you're not talking about college expenses, what does $80k/year in primary education get you that's better than public school or even just a cheaper private school? Not a flame, just genuinely curious on what the merits of a $40k/year K-12 education is.

the quality of classmates, and the atmosphere of the school.

So you mean rich.

LMAO yes these folks obviously don't want their kids around filthy poor kids