Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain Forum

(On Campus Interviews, Summer Associate positions, Firm Reviews, Tips, ...)
Forum rules
Anonymous Posting

Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are revealing sensitive employment related information about a firm, job, etc. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.

Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned.
johndhi

Bronze
Posts: 439
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:25 am

Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by johndhi » Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:44 pm

This is what "medical leave" is for. Ask the HR folks and take that.

Anonymous User
Posts: 428122
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:15 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:09 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:45 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:28 am
As a countervailing view, I attended public school in California from 5th grade onwards and then went to ‘top’ flight private college, foreign masters, and law school. I’m very glad my parents saved the money they would have spent on private secondary education so that I came out of the first two with no debt (I still took out some loans for law school, but could have attended a lower ranked program for free).

For what it’s worth, I found that my public middle and high schools were very rigorous in math and sciences (and many of my classmates excelled at those subjects far beyond me), but lackluster in the humanities. I read a lot independently, so I never felt that much less well-rounded than my Choate and Horace Mann friends.

My two cents: if you loathe your job to the point of depression but you have golden handcuffs from private elementary and secondary school tuition, cut them off and give some serious thought to your priorities—you only get one life.
I totally agree. I went to a great public school in the South and ended up going to my first choice college. My spouse went to a shitty public school in the Northeast and ended up going to their first choice college. We both ended up with the careers we wanted. When we looked for houses, we only looked in towns with great schools. This meant we had to get a crappier house than if we'd looked in towns with bad schools, but it is still a completely adequate and comfortable house. The money we save on K-12 tuition means we can put away enough to send our kids to college with little or no debt (depending on where they end up going), so they can start their adult lives without worrying about student loan payments. And it also means both my spouse and I can take jobs with more of a work-life balance so we can actually spend time with our children. It really is about priorities and tradeoffs.
Spouse and I both went to publics for UG, and T10s for law, but I went to a genuinely elite JHS/HS and spouse attended a non-NYC, non-elite JHS/HS and their general impression was that the education/access I received was a lot better.

My HS had honors/AP everything and access to elite UG courses (some of my classmates were taking MIT math courses for HS credit senior year), my classmates were genuinely intelligent and driven people (bunch of them went on to be successful in roles like starting cutting edge technology companies that are at $1b+ valuations, one of them is a head of dept at a hospital, etc.), idk, it was a demanding place overall.

Spouse and I have talked a lot about where kids would go, etc., I've always been of the view that my HS was overpriced and I'd prefer to just put the kids in public school and fill in the gaps via other programs, but they brought up that for me, UG and LS were genuinely easy and not stressful and that's likely attributable in part to how my HS prepared me for it and their view is they want our kids to similarly be equipped. Not sure I fully agree with that take but it's something I think about.
Assuming that your expensive 7-12 education did mean that undergrad and law school were easier and less stressful for you, is that a reason to stay in a job that means you have significantly less time with your family? I know that kids like having nice things, but as you get older and start looking back, time spent with your parents will likely be more valuable to you than having an easier time in college or high school friends with fancy jobs/lots of money. Most kids want quantity time with their parents. That's not always possible for a lot of reasons, but if what is keeping someone from spending that time with them is to pay for a fancy education so they can coast through college, that seems like a bad trade-off,

Anonymous User
Posts: 428122
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:15 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:09 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:45 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:28 am
As a countervailing view, I attended public school in California from 5th grade onwards and then went to ‘top’ flight private college, foreign masters, and law school. I’m very glad my parents saved the money they would have spent on private secondary education so that I came out of the first two with no debt (I still took out some loans for law school, but could have attended a lower ranked program for free).

For what it’s worth, I found that my public middle and high schools were very rigorous in math and sciences (and many of my classmates excelled at those subjects far beyond me), but lackluster in the humanities. I read a lot independently, so I never felt that much less well-rounded than my Choate and Horace Mann friends.

My two cents: if you loathe your job to the point of depression but you have golden handcuffs from private elementary and secondary school tuition, cut them off and give some serious thought to your priorities—you only get one life.
I totally agree. I went to a great public school in the South and ended up going to my first choice college. My spouse went to a shitty public school in the Northeast and ended up going to their first choice college. We both ended up with the careers we wanted. When we looked for houses, we only looked in towns with great schools. This meant we had to get a crappier house than if we'd looked in towns with bad schools, but it is still a completely adequate and comfortable house. The money we save on K-12 tuition means we can put away enough to send our kids to college with little or no debt (depending on where they end up going), so they can start their adult lives without worrying about student loan payments. And it also means both my spouse and I can take jobs with more of a work-life balance so we can actually spend time with our children. It really is about priorities and tradeoffs.
Spouse and I both went to publics for UG, and T10s for law, but I went to a genuinely elite JHS/HS and spouse attended a non-NYC, non-elite JHS/HS and their general impression was that the education/access I received was a lot better.

My HS had honors/AP everything and access to elite UG courses (some of my classmates were taking MIT math courses for HS credit senior year), my classmates were genuinely intelligent and driven people (bunch of them went on to be successful in roles like starting cutting edge technology companies that are at $1b+ valuations, one of them is a head of dept at a hospital, etc.), idk, it was a demanding place overall.

Spouse and I have talked a lot about where kids would go, etc., I've always been of the view that my HS was overpriced and I'd prefer to just put the kids in public school and fill in the gaps via other programs, but they brought up that for me, UG and LS were genuinely easy and not stressful and that's likely attributable in part to how my HS prepared me for it and their view is they want our kids to similarly be equipped. Not sure I fully agree with that take but it's something I think about.
Assuming that your expensive 7-12 education did mean that undergrad and law school were easier and less stressful for you, is that a reason to stay in a job that means you have significantly less time with your family? I know that kids like having nice things, but as you get older and start looking back, time spent with your parents will likely be more valuable to you than having an easier time in college or high school friends with fancy jobs/lots of money. Most kids want quantity time with their parents. That's not always possible for a lot of reasons, but if what is keeping someone from spending that time with them is to pay for a fancy education so they can coast through college, that seems like a bad trade-off,
I'm not the OP but I am the person you're quoting - to be clear, I think the utility of the expensive 7-12 education I got compared to my spouse's public education is pretty marginal, but my spouse is firm in their belief to the contrary. Just chiming in about the "why would you get an expensive pre-UG education lol" question.

As someone who is also 8+ years into practice, as you have to manage the big next step (whether to try and shoot for partner, go in-house, lateral, etc.), it's a bit more stressful because you just have more going on with life, parents might be getting older, might have kids, etc. I'm not feeling the burnout yet but I might just be lucky in that regard.

Anonymous User
Posts: 428122
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:15 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:15 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:09 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:45 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:28 am
As a countervailing view, I attended public school in California from 5th grade onwards and then went to ‘top’ flight private college, foreign masters, and law school. I’m very glad my parents saved the money they would have spent on private secondary education so that I came out of the first two with no debt (I still took out some loans for law school, but could have attended a lower ranked program for free).

For what it’s worth, I found that my public middle and high schools were very rigorous in math and sciences (and many of my classmates excelled at those subjects far beyond me), but lackluster in the humanities. I read a lot independently, so I never felt that much less well-rounded than my Choate and Horace Mann friends.

My two cents: if you loathe your job to the point of depression but you have golden handcuffs from private elementary and secondary school tuition, cut them off and give some serious thought to your priorities—you only get one life.
I totally agree. I went to a great public school in the South and ended up going to my first choice college. My spouse went to a shitty public school in the Northeast and ended up going to their first choice college. We both ended up with the careers we wanted. When we looked for houses, we only looked in towns with great schools. This meant we had to get a crappier house than if we'd looked in towns with bad schools, but it is still a completely adequate and comfortable house. The money we save on K-12 tuition means we can put away enough to send our kids to college with little or no debt (depending on where they end up going), so they can start their adult lives without worrying about student loan payments. And it also means both my spouse and I can take jobs with more of a work-life balance so we can actually spend time with our children. It really is about priorities and tradeoffs.
Spouse and I both went to publics for UG, and T10s for law, but I went to a genuinely elite JHS/HS and spouse attended a non-NYC, non-elite JHS/HS and their general impression was that the education/access I received was a lot better.

My HS had honors/AP everything and access to elite UG courses (some of my classmates were taking MIT math courses for HS credit senior year), my classmates were genuinely intelligent and driven people (bunch of them went on to be successful in roles like starting cutting edge technology companies that are at $1b+ valuations, one of them is a head of dept at a hospital, etc.), idk, it was a demanding place overall.

Spouse and I have talked a lot about where kids would go, etc., I've always been of the view that my HS was overpriced and I'd prefer to just put the kids in public school and fill in the gaps via other programs, but they brought up that for me, UG and LS were genuinely easy and not stressful and that's likely attributable in part to how my HS prepared me for it and their view is they want our kids to similarly be equipped. Not sure I fully agree with that take but it's something I think about.
Assuming that your expensive 7-12 education did mean that undergrad and law school were easier and less stressful for you, is that a reason to stay in a job that means you have significantly less time with your family? I know that kids like having nice things, but as you get older and start looking back, time spent with your parents will likely be more valuable to you than having an easier time in college or high school friends with fancy jobs/lots of money. Most kids want quantity time with their parents. That's not always possible for a lot of reasons, but if what is keeping someone from spending that time with them is to pay for a fancy education so they can coast through college, that seems like a bad trade-off,
This. Time > Money with kids, especially young kids who have no sense of money, as long as there’s enough to provide for normal middle class comforts.

User avatar
feminist.supporter

New
Posts: 41
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2021 8:26 am

Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by feminist.supporter » Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:56 pm

nixy wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:44 pm
feminist.supporter wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:05 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:08 pm
Probably not the place for this, but I've always been curious about this - assuming you're not talking about college expenses, what does $80k/year in primary education get you that's better than public school or even just a cheaper private school? Not a flame, just genuinely curious on what the merits of a $40k/year K-12 education is.
the quality of classmates, and the atmosphere of the school.
So you mean rich.
Yes, rich.

Want to continue reading?

Register now to search topics and post comments!

Absolutely FREE!


Anonymous User
Posts: 428122
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:49 pm

Not sure if OP is still checking this thread (which just turned into a debate over public vs. private school - not that it matters but I went to public school all throughout my life except for law school and have turned out fine), but I was definitely feeling all of last year the same way as OP. After a lifetime of striving and working hard I couldn’t bring myself to have a good attitude about accomplishing even the simplest tasks for work. Even one non-abrasive phone call from a partner telling me to work on something trivial would make me cry. I just hated the big law lifestyle of always being on call and having everything be a fire drill. I put my in-house search into heavy gear toward the end of last year especially because it was much easier interviewing while WFH. Fortunately got several offers and am now approaching my one-year anniversary at my in-house gig where I’m making $300k. Sure I could have made more with bonuses staying longer in big law but my QOL has done a 180. No weekend or late night work is ever really expected unless I want a gold star. I can make plans on weekends and not get triggered by every email ping. I can take real vacation and have my manager respect my time off (with no “apologetic” emails asking me to do something because it really couldn’t wait). I think back to where I was last year at a firm and can’t get over how much my mental health has improved since then. I finally have started to feel like my old pre-law school self where I have more optimism about the future and self-confidence in my abilities. I often felt like a shell of myself while I was in big law and was definitely depressed for a lot of it. If I could go back in time I don’t think I’d ever make the same choice to go to law school despite my current circumstances. I’m much happier now but don’t think the years of struggle leading up to it were worth it. Just wanted to give a hopeful anecdote.

Anonymous User
Posts: 428122
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:49 pm
Not sure if OP is still checking this thread (which just turned into a debate over public vs. private school - not that it matters but I went to public school all throughout my life except for law school and have turned out fine), but I was definitely feeling all of last year the same way as OP. After a lifetime of striving and working hard I couldn’t bring myself to have a good attitude about accomplishing even the simplest tasks for work. Even one non-abrasive phone call from a partner telling me to work on something trivial would make me cry. I just hated the big law lifestyle of always being on call and having everything be a fire drill. I put my in-house search into heavy gear toward the end of last year especially because it was much easier interviewing while WFH. Fortunately got several offers and am now approaching my one-year anniversary at my in-house gig where I’m making $300k. Sure I could have made more with bonuses staying longer in big law but my QOL has done a 180. No weekend or late night work is ever really expected unless I want a gold star. I can make plans on weekends and not get triggered by every email ping. I can take real vacation and have my manager respect my time off (with no “apologetic” emails asking me to do something because it really couldn’t wait). I think back to where I was last year at a firm and can’t get over how much my mental health has improved since then. I finally have started to feel like my old pre-law school self where I have more optimism about the future and self-confidence in my abilities. I often felt like a shell of myself while I was in big law and was definitely depressed for a lot of it. If I could go back in time I don’t think I’d ever make the same choice to go to law school despite my current circumstances. I’m much happier now but don’t think the years of struggle leading up to it were worth it. Just wanted to give a hopeful anecdote.
Where are these magical in-house gigs where you essentially work 9-5 five days per week and make $300K? Do you mind if I ask what area of law you worked in and what type of in-house position you have?

Sad248

New
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:50 am

Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by Sad248 » Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:23 am

As to the schooling debate (which I do think is the big hassle when it comes to retiring early, as kids are EXPENSIVE). Would it not be possible to move overseas and enjoy the superior education there, which is also considerably cheaper? I know some of these moves might be hard due to visa reasons, but I think it would be worth looking into. Make bank until you're 35, get kids, then get an easier job which still makes a solid amount, and from year 5 onwards, move abroad, enroll them in an international school there, and get a different job (I don't know, could even be an English tutor or an LSAT tutor or something) to add a little bit to the coffers, maybe there even is a semi-decent legal job available. Hopefully, expenses there are lower than in the US anyway, your children get a better education at a lower price, and you can always go back to the US to enjoy their better universities for the children as well. I'm probably oversimplifying it (not even at the child-producing stages of my life), but just a thought I had.

User avatar
jbagelboy

Diamond
Posts: 10361
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:57 pm

Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by jbagelboy » Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:12 am

Sad248 wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:23 am
As to the schooling debate (which I do think is the big hassle when it comes to retiring early, as kids are EXPENSIVE). Would it not be possible to move overseas and enjoy the superior education there, which is also considerably cheaper? I know some of these moves might be hard due to visa reasons, but I think it would be worth looking into. Make bank until you're 35, get kids, then get an easier job which still makes a solid amount, and from year 5 onwards, move abroad, enroll them in an international school there, and get a different job (I don't know, could even be an English tutor or an LSAT tutor or something) to add a little bit to the coffers, maybe there even is a semi-decent legal job available. Hopefully, expenses there are lower than in the US anyway, your children get a better education at a lower price, and you can always go back to the US to enjoy their better universities for the children as well. I'm probably oversimplifying it (not even at the child-producing stages of my life), but just a thought I had.
Some people have communities, families, and lives in the United States that they care about and don’t want to leave. That’s probably why most people don’t emigrate.

It’s also incredibly difficult to (legally) work in most foreign countries without a visa provided by the employer (in which case you are moving for the job) or dual citizenship.

As someone who attended a foreign bilingual school for some of primary education, there are significant advantages but also drawbacks. The advantages —including speaking multiple languages — I mostly only came to appreciate later in life. At the time, it was really, really challenging.

Want to continue reading?

Register for access!

Did I mention it was FREE ?


Anonymous User
Posts: 428122
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:31 am

Sad248 wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:23 am
As to the schooling debate (which I do think is the big hassle when it comes to retiring early, as kids are EXPENSIVE). Would it not be possible to move overseas and enjoy the superior education there, which is also considerably cheaper? I know some of these moves might be hard due to visa reasons, but I think it would be worth looking into. Make bank until you're 35, get kids, then get an easier job which still makes a solid amount, and from year 5 onwards, move abroad, enroll them in an international school there, and get a different job (I don't know, could even be an English tutor or an LSAT tutor or something) to add a little bit to the coffers, maybe there even is a semi-decent legal job available. Hopefully, expenses there are lower than in the US anyway, your children get a better education at a lower price, and you can always go back to the US to enjoy their better universities for the children as well. I'm probably oversimplifying it (not even at the child-producing stages of my life), but just a thought I had.
This is my plan, minus the kids. I’m reaching burnout but will be saving for a few more years then moving to Europe to get an LLM and live there long term. I’ve been paying the minimum on my student loans and plan to basically write them off through the foreign income earned exclusion. Moving to Europe with enough money to enjoy it and travel is really exciting to me, but giving up everything here to do it isn’t for everyone (including potentially my partner).

Anonymous User
Posts: 428122
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:35 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:31 am
Sad248 wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:23 am
As to the schooling debate (which I do think is the big hassle when it comes to retiring early, as kids are EXPENSIVE). Would it not be possible to move overseas and enjoy the superior education there, which is also considerably cheaper? I know some of these moves might be hard due to visa reasons, but I think it would be worth looking into. Make bank until you're 35, get kids, then get an easier job which still makes a solid amount, and from year 5 onwards, move abroad, enroll them in an international school there, and get a different job (I don't know, could even be an English tutor or an LSAT tutor or something) to add a little bit to the coffers, maybe there even is a semi-decent legal job available. Hopefully, expenses there are lower than in the US anyway, your children get a better education at a lower price, and you can always go back to the US to enjoy their better universities for the children as well. I'm probably oversimplifying it (not even at the child-producing stages of my life), but just a thought I had.
This is my plan, minus the kids. I’m reaching burnout but will be saving for a few more years then moving to Europe to get an LLM and live there long term. I’ve been paying the minimum on my student loans and plan to basically write them off through the foreign income earned exclusion. Moving to Europe with enough money to enjoy it and travel is really exciting to me, but giving up everything here to do it isn’t for everyone (including potentially my partner).
How does one write off their student loans through FEIE? I recently got an offer from my firm to do some time in Europe, and I still have about 100k to pay off, so would be curious as to this.

Anonymous User
Posts: 428122
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:51 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:35 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:31 am
Sad248 wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:23 am
As to the schooling debate (which I do think is the big hassle when it comes to retiring early, as kids are EXPENSIVE). Would it not be possible to move overseas and enjoy the superior education there, which is also considerably cheaper? I know some of these moves might be hard due to visa reasons, but I think it would be worth looking into. Make bank until you're 35, get kids, then get an easier job which still makes a solid amount, and from year 5 onwards, move abroad, enroll them in an international school there, and get a different job (I don't know, could even be an English tutor or an LSAT tutor or something) to add a little bit to the coffers, maybe there even is a semi-decent legal job available. Hopefully, expenses there are lower than in the US anyway, your children get a better education at a lower price, and you can always go back to the US to enjoy their better universities for the children as well. I'm probably oversimplifying it (not even at the child-producing stages of my life), but just a thought I had.
This is my plan, minus the kids. I’m reaching burnout but will be saving for a few more years then moving to Europe to get an LLM and live there long term. I’ve been paying the minimum on my student loans and plan to basically write them off through the foreign income earned exclusion. Moving to Europe with enough money to enjoy it and travel is really exciting to me, but giving up everything here to do it isn’t for everyone (including potentially my partner).
How does one write off their student loans through FEIE? I recently got an offer from my firm to do some time in Europe, and I still have about 100k to pay off, so would be curious as to this.
Also curious about this as well.

Anonymous User
Posts: 428122
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:10 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:51 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:35 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:31 am
Sad248 wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:23 am
As to the schooling debate (which I do think is the big hassle when it comes to retiring early, as kids are EXPENSIVE). Would it not be possible to move overseas and enjoy the superior education there, which is also considerably cheaper? I know some of these moves might be hard due to visa reasons, but I think it would be worth looking into. Make bank until you're 35, get kids, then get an easier job which still makes a solid amount, and from year 5 onwards, move abroad, enroll them in an international school there, and get a different job (I don't know, could even be an English tutor or an LSAT tutor or something) to add a little bit to the coffers, maybe there even is a semi-decent legal job available. Hopefully, expenses there are lower than in the US anyway, your children get a better education at a lower price, and you can always go back to the US to enjoy their better universities for the children as well. I'm probably oversimplifying it (not even at the child-producing stages of my life), but just a thought I had.
This is my plan, minus the kids. I’m reaching burnout but will be saving for a few more years then moving to Europe to get an LLM and live there long term. I’ve been paying the minimum on my student loans and plan to basically write them off through the foreign income earned exclusion. Moving to Europe with enough money to enjoy it and travel is really exciting to me, but giving up everything here to do it isn’t for everyone (including potentially my partner).
How does one write off their student loans through FEIE? I recently got an offer from my firm to do some time in Europe, and I still have about 100k to pay off, so would be curious as to this.
Also curious about this as well.
It’s essentially IBR. The first $100k of your income earned abroad is not considered for tax purposes, so if you make less than $100k, your income for IBR purposes is $0, and your monthly payment is therefore $0. Or even if you make $150k, you’re paying IBR on $50k. The loans will continue to grow in interest obviously and will be taxed as income when they’re written off, but the tax bomb will be less than what you would have spent paying off the loan.

Register now!

Resources to assist law school applicants, students & graduates.

It's still FREE!


Anonymous User
Posts: 428122
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:31 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:49 pm
Where are these magical in-house gigs where you essentially work 9-5 five days per week and make $300K? Do you mind if I ask what area of law you worked in and what type of in-house position you have?
Different anon, but I also have one of those mythical 9-5 M-F jobs making over $300k. I was a PE M&A associate and left as a 6th year to a generalist position at a large but not enormous company. Comp for in-house jobs is all over the map. There was over a $200k spread in the positions I looked at and it didn't seem to follow any clear pattern.

I was just patient in my search (despite suffering from burn out and very much wanting to leave) and kept pushing until I found something that checked my boxes. It's not as easy to get these jobs as some people make it out, but they're definitely out there.

Anonymous User
Posts: 428122
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:12 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:31 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:49 pm
Where are these magical in-house gigs where you essentially work 9-5 five days per week and make $300K? Do you mind if I ask what area of law you worked in and what type of in-house position you have?
Different anon, but I also have one of those mythical 9-5 M-F jobs making over $300k. I was a PE M&A associate and left as a 6th year to a generalist position at a large but not enormous company. Comp for in-house jobs is all over the map. There was over a $200k spread in the positions I looked at and it didn't seem to follow any clear pattern.

I was just patient in my search (despite suffering from burn out and very much wanting to leave) and kept pushing until I found something that checked my boxes. It's not as easy to get these jobs as some people make it out, but they're definitely out there.
Original anon of that in-house post. I was also a PE M&A associate, left right at the end of my fourth year/beginning of my fifth year for a counsel position at one of the FAANG. Agreed it wasn’t easy to secure the offer as the process was quite competitive. Glad I didn’t throw in the towel prematurely (was seriously considering quitting law altogether with nothing lined up) but like I said, if I could turn back time I wouldn’t do law school again even with the knowledge of the same outcome - the eight to nine years of striving to get to this point took a huge toll.

Anonymous User
Posts: 428122
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:34 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:09 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:45 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:28 am
As a countervailing view, I attended public school in California from 5th grade onwards and then went to ‘top’ flight private college, foreign masters, and law school. I’m very glad my parents saved the money they would have spent on private secondary education so that I came out of the first two with no debt (I still took out some loans for law school, but could have attended a lower ranked program for free).

For what it’s worth, I found that my public middle and high schools were very rigorous in math and sciences (and many of my classmates excelled at those subjects far beyond me), but lackluster in the humanities. I read a lot independently, so I never felt that much less well-rounded than my Choate and Horace Mann friends.

My two cents: if you loathe your job to the point of depression but you have golden handcuffs from private elementary and secondary school tuition, cut them off and give some serious thought to your priorities—you only get one life.
I totally agree. I went to a great public school in the South and ended up going to my first choice college. My spouse went to a shitty public school in the Northeast and ended up going to their first choice college. We both ended up with the careers we wanted. When we looked for houses, we only looked in towns with great schools. This meant we had to get a crappier house than if we'd looked in towns with bad schools, but it is still a completely adequate and comfortable house. The money we save on K-12 tuition means we can put away enough to send our kids to college with little or no debt (depending on where they end up going), so they can start their adult lives without worrying about student loan payments. And it also means both my spouse and I can take jobs with more of a work-life balance so we can actually spend time with our children. It really is about priorities and tradeoffs.
Spouse and I both went to publics for UG, and T10s for law, but I went to a genuinely elite JHS/HS and spouse attended a non-NYC, non-elite JHS/HS and their general impression was that the education/access I received was a lot better.

My HS had honors/AP everything and access to elite UG courses (some of my classmates were taking MIT math courses for HS credit senior year), my classmates were genuinely intelligent and driven people (bunch of them went on to be successful in roles like starting cutting edge technology companies that are at $1b+ valuations, one of them is a head of dept at a hospital, etc.), idk, it was a demanding place overall.

Spouse and I have talked a lot about where kids would go, etc., I've always been of the view that my HS was overpriced and I'd prefer to just put the kids in public school and fill in the gaps via other programs, but they brought up that for me, UG and LS were genuinely easy and not stressful and that's likely attributable in part to how my HS prepared me for it and their view is they want our kids to similarly be equipped. Not sure I fully agree with that take but it's something I think about.
Maybe I'm thinking about this wrongly, but I'd be so sad if my spouse was not only fine with, but actively encouraged, me sacrificing my physical and mental health to continue in a distressing but high paying job, ostensibly so that the kids could go to private school. And by extension, being fine with not getting the opportunity to spend more time with me through a more humane job.

Because there are so many ways to fill any gaps in knowledge going to a "lesser" school might cause, I'd wonder whether it isn't all the other trappings of wealth that they truly enjoy, but that's just me. Of course, public school won't help with the kids getting to know "the right sort of people", which also seems to be important to you guys, so there's that.

LBJ's Hair

Silver
Posts: 848
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:17 pm

Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by LBJ's Hair » Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:05 am

I get the private school thing if you're living in actual New York City proper. but if you're paying for private school in a New York-area bougie suburb---or god-forbid, a San Francisco-area one---you're either filthy, filthy rich or a rube.

my public high school offered 20+ AP classes, I had friends taking college-level linear algebra on weekends, most of us did the stupid Ivy Plus summer day camps---all the bullshit that people talk about their fancy private having. people had great college admissions, got a ton of acquaintances who are doctors now...

that's what you get when the median home price in your suburb is a jillion dollars (my parents couldn't really afford it but bought anyway) and everyone wants their kids to go to a top college

unless the private school has some sort of inappropriate-but-real backdoor "in" with desirable colleges, I don't see the value when you have access to a Palo Alto High School, or a Thomas Jefferson, or w/e

like yeah the facilities at XYZ Private are probably nicer and there's more administrative staffing, but that's not shit that's actually gonna improve student learning

Get unlimited access to all forums and topics

Register now!

I'm pretty sure I told you it's FREE...


Anonymous User
Posts: 428122
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:32 pm

LBJ's Hair wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:05 am
I get the private school thing if you're living in actual New York City proper. but if you're paying for private school in a New York-area bougie suburb---or god-forbid, a San Francisco-area one---you're either filthy, filthy rich or a rube.

my public high school offered 20+ AP classes, I had friends taking college-level linear algebra on weekends, most of us did the stupid Ivy Plus summer day camps---all the bullshit that people talk about their fancy private having. people had great college admissions, got a ton of acquaintances who are doctors now...

that's what you get when the median home price in your suburb is a jillion dollars (my parents couldn't really afford it but bought anyway) and everyone wants their kids to go to a top college

unless the private school has some sort of inappropriate-but-real backdoor "in" with desirable colleges, I don't see the value when you have access to a Palo Alto High School, or a Thomas Jefferson, or w/e

like yeah the facilities at XYZ Private are probably nicer and there's more administrative staffing, but that's not shit that's actually gonna improve student learning
Depends... I went to one of those elite public schools (not TJ fancy, but just below that; my parents similarly stretched), went to a top Ivy for undergrad and law school... but would send kids private because (a) I can afford it, (b) I want my kids to have smaller class sizes and more extracurricular opportunities and (c) I want the school and my kids' teachers and admins to be more accountable to the parents then they were at my elite public school. I also don't necessarily want my kids to go the same route as me (particularly on the law front but I also would not wish for them to be bankers, consultants or surgeons, as life is not all about prestige chasing and I can afford to have my kids do something better or at least more interesting and still provide a safety net for them).

CanadianWolf

Diamond
Posts: 11413
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:54 pm

Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by CanadianWolf » Thu Sep 30, 2021 4:55 pm

OP: Please seek professional medical / psychological counseling ASAP.

User avatar
bruinfan10

Silver
Posts: 658
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:25 am

Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by bruinfan10 » Thu Sep 30, 2021 5:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:34 am
Maybe I'm thinking about this wrongly, but I'd be so sad if my spouse was not only fine with, but actively encouraged, me sacrificing my physical and mental health to continue in a distressing but high paying job, ostensibly so that the kids could go to private school. And by extension, being fine with not getting the opportunity to spend more time with me through a more humane job.

Because there are so many ways to fill any gaps in knowledge going to a "lesser" school might cause, I'd wonder whether it isn't all the other trappings of wealth that they truly enjoy, but that's just me. Of course, public school won't help with the kids getting to know "the right sort of people", which also seems to be important to you guys, so there's that.
Agreed 100%. It is extraordinarily depressing when a significant other hears the terrible sacrifice you have to make and kind of blithely says "yeah but the money is worth it." Especially if they don't work the same kind of demanding job. Only you can make that decision - your partner is free to pursue more money if they want it themselves.

User avatar
jbagelboy

Diamond
Posts: 10361
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:57 pm

Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by jbagelboy » Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:32 pm
LBJ's Hair wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:05 am
I get the private school thing if you're living in actual New York City proper. but if you're paying for private school in a New York-area bougie suburb---or god-forbid, a San Francisco-area one---you're either filthy, filthy rich or a rube.

my public high school offered 20+ AP classes, I had friends taking college-level linear algebra on weekends, most of us did the stupid Ivy Plus summer day camps---all the bullshit that people talk about their fancy private having. people had great college admissions, got a ton of acquaintances who are doctors now...

that's what you get when the median home price in your suburb is a jillion dollars (my parents couldn't really afford it but bought anyway) and everyone wants their kids to go to a top college

unless the private school has some sort of inappropriate-but-real backdoor "in" with desirable colleges, I don't see the value when you have access to a Palo Alto High School, or a Thomas Jefferson, or w/e

like yeah the facilities at XYZ Private are probably nicer and there's more administrative staffing, but that's not shit that's actually gonna improve student learning
Depends... I went to one of those elite public schools (not TJ fancy, but just below that; my parents similarly stretched), went to a top Ivy for undergrad and law school... but would send kids private because (a) I can afford it, (b) I want my kids to have smaller class sizes and more extracurricular opportunities and (c) I want the school and my kids' teachers and admins to be more accountable to the parents then they were at my elite public school. I also don't necessarily want my kids to go the same route as me (particularly on the law front but I also would not wish for them to be bankers, consultants or surgeons, as life is not all about prestige chasing and I can afford to have my kids do something better or at least more interesting and still provide a safety net for them).
You think that sending your kids to private school will make them less inclined to follow a traditional professional path? That’s completely irrational.

Communicate now with those who not only know what a legal education is, but can offer you worthy advice and commentary as you complete the three most educational, yet challenging years of your law related post graduate life.

Register now, it's still FREE!


Anonymous User
Posts: 428122
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:40 am

jbagelboy wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:12 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:32 pm
LBJ's Hair wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:05 am
I get the private school thing if you're living in actual New York City proper. but if you're paying for private school in a New York-area bougie suburb---or god-forbid, a San Francisco-area one---you're either filthy, filthy rich or a rube.

my public high school offered 20+ AP classes, I had friends taking college-level linear algebra on weekends, most of us did the stupid Ivy Plus summer day camps---all the bullshit that people talk about their fancy private having. people had great college admissions, got a ton of acquaintances who are doctors now...

that's what you get when the median home price in your suburb is a jillion dollars (my parents couldn't really afford it but bought anyway) and everyone wants their kids to go to a top college

unless the private school has some sort of inappropriate-but-real backdoor "in" with desirable colleges, I don't see the value when you have access to a Palo Alto High School, or a Thomas Jefferson, or w/e

like yeah the facilities at XYZ Private are probably nicer and there's more administrative staffing, but that's not shit that's actually gonna improve student learning
Depends... I went to one of those elite public schools (not TJ fancy, but just below that; my parents similarly stretched), went to a top Ivy for undergrad and law school... but would send kids private because (a) I can afford it, (b) I want my kids to have smaller class sizes and more extracurricular opportunities and (c) I want the school and my kids' teachers and admins to be more accountable to the parents then they were at my elite public school. I also don't necessarily want my kids to go the same route as me (particularly on the law front but I also would not wish for them to be bankers, consultants or surgeons, as life is not all about prestige chasing and I can afford to have my kids do something better or at least more interesting and still provide a safety net for them).
You think that sending your kids to private school will make them less inclined to follow a traditional professional path? That’s completely irrational.
This is 100% accurate. Very few (none?) of the working artists I know attended elite private schools. Plus in my experience "more accountable to the parents" means parents try and micromanage their kids' education which (1) sucks for both the kids and teachers and (2) sucks for the other parents because you basically have people thinking they can demand their preferred curriculum or pedagogy because they're paying 60k for second grade, damn it!

MarcusH

New
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2014 10:06 pm

Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by MarcusH » Fri Oct 01, 2021 11:28 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:40 am
jbagelboy wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:12 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:32 pm
LBJ's Hair wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:05 am
I get the private school thing if you're living in actual New York City proper. but if you're paying for private school in a New York-area bougie suburb---or god-forbid, a San Francisco-area one---you're either filthy, filthy rich or a rube.

my public high school offered 20+ AP classes, I had friends taking college-level linear algebra on weekends, most of us did the stupid Ivy Plus summer day camps---all the bullshit that people talk about their fancy private having. people had great college admissions, got a ton of acquaintances who are doctors now...

that's what you get when the median home price in your suburb is a jillion dollars (my parents couldn't really afford it but bought anyway) and everyone wants their kids to go to a top college

unless the private school has some sort of inappropriate-but-real backdoor "in" with desirable colleges, I don't see the value when you have access to a Palo Alto High School, or a Thomas Jefferson, or w/e

like yeah the facilities at XYZ Private are probably nicer and there's more administrative staffing, but that's not shit that's actually gonna improve student learning
Depends... I went to one of those elite public schools (not TJ fancy, but just below that; my parents similarly stretched), went to a top Ivy for undergrad and law school... but would send kids private because (a) I can afford it, (b) I want my kids to have smaller class sizes and more extracurricular opportunities and (c) I want the school and my kids' teachers and admins to be more accountable to the parents then they were at my elite public school. I also don't necessarily want my kids to go the same route as me (particularly on the law front but I also would not wish for them to be bankers, consultants or surgeons, as life is not all about prestige chasing and I can afford to have my kids do something better or at least more interesting and still provide a safety net for them).
You think that sending your kids to private school will make them less inclined to follow a traditional professional path? That’s completely irrational.
This is 100% accurate. Very few (none?) of the working artists I know attended elite private schools. Plus in my experience "more accountable to the parents" means parents try and micromanage their kids' education which (1) sucks for both the kids and teachers and (2) sucks for the other parents because you basically have people thinking they can demand their preferred curriculum or pedagogy because they're paying 60k for second grade, damn it!
YMMV, and never said I want my kids to be "working artists" - would actually prefer sports (ideally country club ones) tbh...I'm not fighting any class warfare here; this is just what I enjoy and the life I chose by sacrificing more than I would want my kids to have to sacrifice and ideally retiring young.

More on subject - I think everyone can agree if you're privileged enough to be able to, then you should always put your health before the job and burnout is real in this profession and many others (including lower paid ones like teacher).

Anonymous User
Posts: 428122
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:55 pm

MarcusH wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 11:28 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:40 am
jbagelboy wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:12 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:32 pm
LBJ's Hair wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:05 am
I get the private school thing if you're living in actual New York City proper. but if you're paying for private school in a New York-area bougie suburb---or god-forbid, a San Francisco-area one---you're either filthy, filthy rich or a rube.

my public high school offered 20+ AP classes, I had friends taking college-level linear algebra on weekends, most of us did the stupid Ivy Plus summer day camps---all the bullshit that people talk about their fancy private having. people had great college admissions, got a ton of acquaintances who are doctors now...

that's what you get when the median home price in your suburb is a jillion dollars (my parents couldn't really afford it but bought anyway) and everyone wants their kids to go to a top college

unless the private school has some sort of inappropriate-but-real backdoor "in" with desirable colleges, I don't see the value when you have access to a Palo Alto High School, or a Thomas Jefferson, or w/e

like yeah the facilities at XYZ Private are probably nicer and there's more administrative staffing, but that's not shit that's actually gonna improve student learning
Depends... I went to one of those elite public schools (not TJ fancy, but just below that; my parents similarly stretched), went to a top Ivy for undergrad and law school... but would send kids private because (a) I can afford it, (b) I want my kids to have smaller class sizes and more extracurricular opportunities and (c) I want the school and my kids' teachers and admins to be more accountable to the parents then they were at my elite public school. I also don't necessarily want my kids to go the same route as me (particularly on the law front but I also would not wish for them to be bankers, consultants or surgeons, as life is not all about prestige chasing and I can afford to have my kids do something better or at least more interesting and still provide a safety net for them).
You think that sending your kids to private school will make them less inclined to follow a traditional professional path? That’s completely irrational.
This is 100% accurate. Very few (none?) of the working artists I know attended elite private schools. Plus in my experience "more accountable to the parents" means parents try and micromanage their kids' education which (1) sucks for both the kids and teachers and (2) sucks for the other parents because you basically have people thinking they can demand their preferred curriculum or pedagogy because they're paying 60k for second grade, damn it!
YMMV, and never said I want my kids to be "working artists" - would actually prefer sports (ideally country club ones) tbh...I'm not fighting any class warfare here; this is just what I enjoy and the life I chose by sacrificing more than I would want my kids to have to sacrifice and ideally retiring young.

More on subject - I think everyone can agree if you're privileged enough to be able to, then you should always put your health before the job and burnout is real in this profession and many others (including lower paid ones like teacher).
So you're willing to see your kids significantly less so you can send them to private school so they have a shot at being pro golfers? I guess it really does take all kinds....

User avatar
jbagelboy

Diamond
Posts: 10361
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:57 pm

Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by jbagelboy » Fri Oct 01, 2021 8:26 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:55 pm
MarcusH wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 11:28 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:40 am
jbagelboy wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:12 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:32 pm
LBJ's Hair wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:05 am
I get the private school thing if you're living in actual New York City proper. but if you're paying for private school in a New York-area bougie suburb---or god-forbid, a San Francisco-area one---you're either filthy, filthy rich or a rube.

my public high school offered 20+ AP classes, I had friends taking college-level linear algebra on weekends, most of us did the stupid Ivy Plus summer day camps---all the bullshit that people talk about their fancy private having. people had great college admissions, got a ton of acquaintances who are doctors now...

that's what you get when the median home price in your suburb is a jillion dollars (my parents couldn't really afford it but bought anyway) and everyone wants their kids to go to a top college

unless the private school has some sort of inappropriate-but-real backdoor "in" with desirable colleges, I don't see the value when you have access to a Palo Alto High School, or a Thomas Jefferson, or w/e

like yeah the facilities at XYZ Private are probably nicer and there's more administrative staffing, but that's not shit that's actually gonna improve student learning
Depends... I went to one of those elite public schools (not TJ fancy, but just below that; my parents similarly stretched), went to a top Ivy for undergrad and law school... but would send kids private because (a) I can afford it, (b) I want my kids to have smaller class sizes and more extracurricular opportunities and (c) I want the school and my kids' teachers and admins to be more accountable to the parents then they were at my elite public school. I also don't necessarily want my kids to go the same route as me (particularly on the law front but I also would not wish for them to be bankers, consultants or surgeons, as life is not all about prestige chasing and I can afford to have my kids do something better or at least more interesting and still provide a safety net for them).
You think that sending your kids to private school will make them less inclined to follow a traditional professional path? That’s completely irrational.
This is 100% accurate. Very few (none?) of the working artists I know attended elite private schools. Plus in my experience "more accountable to the parents" means parents try and micromanage their kids' education which (1) sucks for both the kids and teachers and (2) sucks for the other parents because you basically have people thinking they can demand their preferred curriculum or pedagogy because they're paying 60k for second grade, damn it!
YMMV, and never said I want my kids to be "working artists" - would actually prefer sports (ideally country club ones) tbh...I'm not fighting any class warfare here; this is just what I enjoy and the life I chose by sacrificing more than I would want my kids to have to sacrifice and ideally retiring young.

More on subject - I think everyone can agree if you're privileged enough to be able to, then you should always put your health before the job and burnout is real in this profession and many others (including lower paid ones like teacher).
So you're willing to see your kids significantly less so you can send them to private school so they have a shot at being pro golfers? I guess it really does take all kinds....
Ok this is flame

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

Now there's a charge.
Just kidding ... it's still FREE!


Post Reply Post Anonymous Reply  

Return to “Legal Employment”