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Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:58 am
Not a real doctor, obviously (only a juris doctor), but you are describing classic symptoms of depression. Lots of folks think depression = thoughts of suicide, but that isn't necessarily the case, and you sound like you've got it.

Posting anonymously so that I can say: I've experience depression symptoms and was diagnosed with anxiety, and I'm now on an anxiety medication which is also used to treat depression. It took a miserable week to begin to take effect (and I understand I'm very lucky that the kick-in time was that short), but now I feel wonderful. I can do my job again, I can take care of my family, and I enjoy the good things in life again instead of constantly just dreading the next email. It can seem daunting to go through the process of speaking to a doctor or therapist (where do we find the time or motivation?) but either or both can be helpful. It can seem daunting to take the time you need to work through the treatment or go on the meds ("3 weeks to take effect, during which time I'll feel even more like shit!? How does a Biglaw associate/counsel/partner manage it?!") but in many cases medication is a big part of the right (temporary or long term) answer. And the weeks or months it can take to see real results from treatment is worth it - the blink of an eye, really - when you compare it to your career or your family life.
Lexapro greatly improved my life. Had a mental breakdown as a mid-level. Therapy helped but not enough.

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Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by ProbablyWaitListed » Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:08 pm

Probably not the place for this, but I've always been curious about this - assuming you're not talking about college expenses, what does $80k/year in primary education get you that's better than public school or even just a cheaper private school? Not a flame, just genuinely curious on what the merits of a $40k/year K-12 education is.
I think it's the lower teacher:student ratio and, most of all, the super specialized and attentive college admissions counseling. I went to a super intense, high achieving, and large public high school outside a major city and then attended a t20 undergrad. The main difference I noted between my own experience and those of my classmates that attended "elite" prep schools was the level of care those schools put into getting all their kids into the best colleges possible.

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Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by 12YrsAnAssociate » Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:01 pm

I have a comment on the school thing too. I sent my kid to the local public school and it was absolutely remedial. My son is not Einstein, but at the parent teacher conference 1 month in to the first grade school year, the teacher told us our son could already do all the things she would teach that year. These were things like write the ABCs and count to 25. When we asked what she would do to keep him occupied, she gave us things we could work on at home. It was unreal. Yes, I know I can teach my kid math at home, but what is he going to learn for the 5 hours a day he's in your class? In general, the kids and parents were nice but didn't care about whether the kids learned. We pulled him out and put him in private school where he's with other kids that are also not Einstein, but are also there to do more than spell their names. It was a hard choice for us because we don't plan to have the dual income/biglaw salary forever, we thought we learned plenty at the public schools we went to growing up, and $20k a year is a lot of money. But we're 100% happy we did what we did.

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Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by ProbablyWaitListed » Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:12 pm

Yeah as above poster said public school can definitely be a mixed bag but I honestly think if you're at a fantastic one (thinking like Conestoga, Highland Park, New Trier) the quality of the top students and the rigor of the highest level classes is about as good as you will get anywhere. I went to lower Ivy equivalent UG (think Vandy, WashU, NW level) --> T10 law school (so not the utter tippy top - maybe things take a noticeable quality step at harvard or yale, I wouldn't know) and I would put the kids from my terminal level AP classes up against my peers in college or law school no problem. I really think it's the individualized instruction, greater resources, and college handholding that make the difference.

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Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by nixy » Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:24 pm

ProbablyWaitListed wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:12 pm
Yeah as above poster said public school can definitely be a mixed bag but I honestly think if you're at a fantastic one (thinking like Conestoga, Highland Park, New Trier) the quality of the top students and the rigor of the highest level classes is about as good as you will get anywhere. I went to lower Ivy equivalent UG (think Vandy, WashU, NW level) --> T10 law school (so not the utter tippy top - maybe things take a noticeable quality step at harvard or yale, I wouldn't know) and I would put the kids from my terminal level AP classes up against my peers in college or law school no problem. I really think it's the individualized instruction, greater resources, and college handholding that make the difference.
I agree that top public schools are as good as you'll get anywhere (I went to one, we had a great pipeline to Harvard and other top schools, it was a great education). But you have to pay a lot to live in those communities, so you're paying either way. And there are plenty of parts of the country where you aren't going to have access (or easy access) to one of those schools. It really depends so much on where you are.

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Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by ProbablyWaitListed » Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:33 pm

nixy wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:24 pm

I agree that top public schools are as good as you'll get anywhere (I went to one, we had a great pipeline to Harvard and other top schools, it was a great education). But you have to pay a lot to live in those communities, so you're paying either way. And there are plenty of parts of the country where you aren't going to have access (or easy access) to one of those schools. It really depends so much on where you are.
Yes, you are right you will have to pay up regardless. From talking to friends I feel like the whole "excellent public school" thing is less prevalent on the east coast, thinking especially of NYC/Boston/Philly because anybody and everyone with money sends their kids to private or parochial (I consider catholic schools basically public but with added priests). But in the Midwest and South there is much, much less of a sentiment of "if you have the money, your children must go to private school." Where I grew up the only private school kids were those whose parents felt that a catholic education was mandatory. I don't know, just from my experience (I know nothing about West Coast) if you live in like Chicago or Dallas you can get an excellent public school education for not crazy money. There are, believe it or not, reasonably priced places in, say, Oak Brook and University Park, you're just going to have to really compromise on space/PRESTIGE of your house to get your kids the best schooling possible.

When I got my V10 offer (oh yes I'm so very special and will succeed in the big law environment, I know) one of my buddies from the Tristate exclaimed "your kids are going to private school!" It kinda made me laugh but I thought it was telling because where I'm from PRIVATE SCHOOL is not the class indicator it is on the east coast.

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Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:14 pm

ProbablyWaitListed wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:33 pm
Yes, you are right you will have to pay up regardless. From talking to friends I feel like the whole "excellent public school" thing is less prevalent on the east coast, thinking especially of NYC/Boston/Philly because anybody and everyone with money sends their kids to private or parochial (I consider catholic schools basically public but with added priests). But in the Midwest and South there is much, much less of a sentiment of "if you have the money, your children must go to private school." Where I grew up the only private school kids were those whose parents felt that a catholic education was mandatory. I don't know, just from my experience (I know nothing about West Coast) if you live in like Chicago or Dallas you can get an excellent public school education for not crazy money. There are, believe it or not, reasonably priced places in, say, Oak Brook and University Park, you're just going to have to really compromise on space/PRESTIGE of your house to get your kids the best schooling possible.

When I got my V10 offer (oh yes I'm so very special and will succeed in the big law environment, I know) one of my buddies from the Tristate exclaimed "your kids are going to private school!" It kinda made me laugh but I thought it was telling because where I'm from PRIVATE SCHOOL is not the class indicator it is on the east coast.
Huh, as an East Coaster, that all seems a bit off to me. In the posh NYC suburbs — nice parts of Westchester and Fairfield counties — biglaw partners and finance MDs routinely send their kids to public schools. (I would know, since I was one of those kids.)

Growing up in one of those fancy suburbs, my perception of the private schools and boarding schools was that they were for socialites (like ‘old money’ families where the kids have “III” or “IV” after their names), preps/Vineyard Vine-types, or slightly slower kids whose parents felt that little Timothy couldn’t thrive without the individualized attention that $40k buys you. I realize that makes me sound snobby and judgmental; guilty as charged. I can’t speak that well to NYC itself, but there’s a reason some prep schools in the city get ridiculed, e.g., Dwight = dumb white idiots getting high together, whereas a public school like Stuyvesant carries a lot of cachet.

All of that’s to say: to my ears, “private school” definitely marks somebody as rich. But when it comes to the subtleties of class, it gets more complex than that.

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Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by nixy » Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:21 pm

So IME that's absolutely the reverse of how it works. The South is absolutely all about "if you have the money, your children must go to private school." It has been historically terrible at funding public education and white flight is a real thing that gutted the public school systems. In rankings of public education, southern states are all pretty much in the bottom half. Conversely, in the northeast public schools are great. Sure, a lot of people who can afford it may avoid NYC proper (apart from the magnet schools like Stuyvesant, but they're hard to get into) or Boston proper, but that's the case with Chicago, too. Oak Brook and University Park are suburbs. There are tons of excellent public schools in the suburbs of NYC and Boston.

I agree that private school as a class indicator is probably a bigger thing in the northeast than in the midwest, but that's because the fancy northeastern private schools are expensive and have long histories of catering to the rich, not because the public school options are worse in the northeast.

(This was in response to ProbablyWaitlisted. Pretty much scooped by the poster above me.)

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Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by ProbablyWaitListed » Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:14 pm

Huh, as an East Coaster, that all seems a bit off to me. In the posh NYC suburbs — nice parts of Westchester and Fairfield counties — biglaw partners and finance MDs routinely send their kids to public schools. (I would know, since I was one of those kids.)

Growing up in one of those fancy suburbs, my perception of the private schools and boarding schools was that they were for socialites (like ‘old money’ families where the kids have “III” or “IV” after their names), preps/Vineyard Vine-types, or slightly slower kids whose parents felt that little Timothy couldn’t thrive without the individualized attention that $40k buys you. I realize that makes me sound snobby and judgmental; guilty as charged. I can’t speak that well to NYC itself, but there’s a reason some prep schools in the city get ridiculed, e.g., Dwight = dumb white idiots getting high together, whereas a public school like Stuyvesant carries a lot of cachet.

All of that’s to say: to my ears, “private school” definitely marks somebody as rich. But when it comes to the subtleties of class, it gets more complex than that.
Fair enough, I'm not from the east coast so my entire impression is from college buddies and I definitely lack the nuanced understanding someone from the area would have. One of my best friends is from one of those counties you mentioned and he low key hates that his family's fortunes had fallen low enough by the time he was 14 that he had to slum it at a public school. But that's probably because he's genuine Old Money and has a complex about it for that reason. I'd agree with your analysis - I think many private school kids are either old money families and/or those who couldn't hack it at the top flight public institutions where it's more sink or swim and so their parents shelled out to get them the nannying at an elite prep school.
nixy wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:21 pm
So IME that's absolutely the reverse of how it works. The South is absolutely all about "if you have the money, your children must go to private school." It has been historically terrible at funding public education and white flight is a real thing that gutted the public school systems. In rankings of public education, southern states are all pretty much in the bottom half. Conversely, in the northeast public schools are great. Sure, a lot of people who can afford it may avoid NYC proper (apart from the magnet schools like Stuyvesant, but they're hard to get into) or Boston proper, but that's the case with Chicago, too. Oak Brook and University Park are suburbs. There are tons of excellent public schools in the suburbs of NYC and Boston.

I agree that private school as a class indicator is probably a bigger thing in the northeast than in the midwest, but that's because the fancy northeastern private schools are expensive and have long histories of catering to the rich, not because the public school options are worse in the northeast.

(This was in response to ProbablyWaitlisted. Pretty much scooped by the poster above me.)
Fair enough re: public school in the south. I'm a midwesterner who spent a period working in dallas and living in highland park (long story) so my perspective is definitely warped because that's the only experience i have with the south. Regarding the east coast thing, again it seems like you have a better perspective on it than I do. Just when I went to college I had lots of friends from philly/boston/nyc most of whom went to private school, which surprised me a little because it truly is not that big of a thing in chicago. Like I know Chicago Latin exists (I think there's some others? UChicago Lab School of course but UChicago is sui generis in the area) but there's zero sense that you're missing out if you go to like New Trier instead of there. I honestly think the huge publics are stronger at the top than anywhere else in the area at least. I think the only community there that actually suffers "brain drain" to private schools is Lake Forest, and I assumed it was much more of an issue on the East Coast because, relative to the midwest, i've noticed a much bigger fixation on PRESTIGE and other class signifiers than even in wealthy midwest communities. I assumed - perhaps wrongly - that this trickled down to the public schools who lost many strong students to the private system in a way that doesn't really happen in the midwest.

EDIT: to maybe give this more of a point, from talking to kids who went to like, Groton, the number one difference I noticed was the college counseling. from what they said it was incredibly hands on and the counselors were actually able to "pull strings" with admissions offices and put serious time and investment into successful efforts to legitimately scheme kids into schools. At my high school, probably top 3 public in the state, the college counseling was an absolute laugh, with each counselor assigned probably like a 100 kids and not knowing their ass from their front. I was told not to apply to Vandy because there was no shot i'd get in and wound up getting a 50% scholarship though I eventually didn't attend.

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Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:04 am

I'm in Chicago. I'm sure it's true that the very best public schools here are decent and competitive with the best private schools. However, at least in the city, it's incredibly competitive to get into them -- you need great grades all through elementary school (nor do I want to deal with high-stakes testing at that age like with Stuyvesant). I don't want that pressure on my kid. And I also don't want to live in the suburbs. I'm willing to pay the money to send them to a good school in the city.

Also, not to push things even further off-topic, it's nice to not have to deal with teachers unions and literal strikes every year.

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Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:28 am

As a countervailing view, I attended public school in California from 5th grade onwards and then went to ‘top’ flight private college, foreign masters, and law school. I’m very glad my parents saved the money they would have spent on private secondary education so that I came out of the first two with no debt (I still took out some loans for law school, but could have attended a lower ranked program for free).

For what it’s worth, I found that my public middle and high schools were very rigorous in math and sciences (and many of my classmates excelled at those subjects far beyond me), but lackluster in the humanities. I read a lot independently, so I never felt that much less well-rounded than my Choate and Horace Mann friends.

My two cents: if you loathe your job to the point of depression but you have golden handcuffs from private elementary and secondary school tuition, cut them off and give some serious thought to your priorities—you only get one life.

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Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:45 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:28 am
As a countervailing view, I attended public school in California from 5th grade onwards and then went to ‘top’ flight private college, foreign masters, and law school. I’m very glad my parents saved the money they would have spent on private secondary education so that I came out of the first two with no debt (I still took out some loans for law school, but could have attended a lower ranked program for free).

For what it’s worth, I found that my public middle and high schools were very rigorous in math and sciences (and many of my classmates excelled at those subjects far beyond me), but lackluster in the humanities. I read a lot independently, so I never felt that much less well-rounded than my Choate and Horace Mann friends.

My two cents: if you loathe your job to the point of depression but you have golden handcuffs from private elementary and secondary school tuition, cut them off and give some serious thought to your priorities—you only get one life.
I totally agree. I went to a great public school in the South and ended up going to my first choice college. My spouse went to a shitty public school in the Northeast and ended up going to their first choice college. We both ended up with the careers we wanted. When we looked for houses, we only looked in towns with great schools. This meant we had to get a crappier house than if we'd looked in towns with bad schools, but it is still a completely adequate and comfortable house. The money we save on K-12 tuition means we can put away enough to send our kids to college with little or no debt (depending on where they end up going), so they can start their adult lives without worrying about student loan payments. And it also means both my spouse and I can take jobs with more of a work-life balance so we can actually spend time with our children. It really is about priorities and tradeoffs.

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Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by Wanderingdrock » Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:53 am

Definitely Not North wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:28 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:09 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:06 pm
... I am a 6th year in a vortex of work right now with no immediate end in sight and am also reaching my breaking point. This life is not a normal human existence and I have come to the conclusion that the money is not worth it, esp. as a more senior attorney who has paid off loans and accumulated substantial savings.
I'm a new partner, making a significant multiple of what I made as an associate, and I'm in the same place -- 100% questioning whether the money is worth the stress and time commitment.
you guys could literally retire once you hit, say, $2mm in the market and live off a 4% SWR ($80k draw a year). Before you hit that, sure grind away. After hitting your number, though -- you don't need to actually stop working, but what's the point of killing yourself
I guess because this thread has completely run off the rails (not judging and am genuinely interested in the public vs. private debate, just noting that it isn't the OP's topic), I'm comfortable jumping in here to point out a pet peeve. 4% is not a SWR for an early retiree. It never has been. The study that proposed a 4% SWR was looking at 95% success rates to have more than $0 left at the end of a 30-year retirement. That's all. It was never intended to support the contention that somebody could retire at 45 and just indefinitely draw 4% with inflation adjustments.

If you're working in Biglaw and your intention is to hit your "number" then immediately retire, please please please make sure your number supports a withdrawal rate more conservative than 4%. If you've got decades left to live, 4% is a WR, not a SWR.

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Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:06 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:45 am
The money we save on K-12 tuition means we can put away enough to send our kids to college with little or no debt (depending on where they end up going), so they can start their adult lives without worrying about student loan payments. And it also means both my spouse and I can take jobs with more of a work-life balance so we can actually spend time with our children. It really is about priorities and tradeoffs.
All of this is totally reasonable, but the reality is that it's not necessarily easy to just turn that dial. I'm a litigation partner at a v10. I guess I could move to a v100 and hope for better work/life balance, but I'd move only a trivial amount of my business. really my choices are between being basically unconstrained on money but having little time and having more time (though still far from a 9-5 life) and having only 25-50% of my current income. Hopefully you can see how that's not an easy move, even if you think from your perspective the v100/lifestyle job is superior.

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Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by nealric » Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:25 am

Wanderingdrock wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:53 am
Definitely Not North wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:28 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:09 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:06 pm
... I am a 6th year in a vortex of work right now with no immediate end in sight and am also reaching my breaking point. This life is not a normal human existence and I have come to the conclusion that the money is not worth it, esp. as a more senior attorney who has paid off loans and accumulated substantial savings.
I'm a new partner, making a significant multiple of what I made as an associate, and I'm in the same place -- 100% questioning whether the money is worth the stress and time commitment.
you guys could literally retire once you hit, say, $2mm in the market and live off a 4% SWR ($80k draw a year). Before you hit that, sure grind away. After hitting your number, though -- you don't need to actually stop working, but what's the point of killing yourself
I guess because this thread has completely run off the rails (not judging and am genuinely interested in the public vs. private debate, just noting that it isn't the OP's topic), I'm comfortable jumping in here to point out a pet peeve. 4% is not a SWR for an early retiree. It never has been. The study that proposed a 4% SWR was looking at 95% success rates to have more than $0 left at the end of a 30-year retirement. That's all. It was never intended to support the contention that somebody could retire at 45 and just indefinitely draw 4% with inflation adjustments.

If you're working in Biglaw and your intention is to hit your "number" then immediately retire, please please please make sure your number supports a withdrawal rate more conservative than 4%. If you've got decades left to live, 4% is a WR, not a SWR.
Very much agree. Also keep in mind that very early retirees will not get much in the way of social security to backstop them. A 65 year old retiring today can at least collect social security based on a whole career. A 40 year old Biglaw burnout is only going to have ~15 years of maxing social security. You can debate how secure social security will be for people today, but the 4% SWR rate was made on the assumption that there would be social security as a final backstop.

SWR for an early retiree is closer to 3% if the retiree has some room in their budget to vary withdrawals according to market conditions.

Finally, as a practical matter, most folks who have $2 million at 40 would still want to do something with their lives other than chill. You have to retire to something, not just from something.

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Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by Definitely Not North » Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:31 am

^ cosign all of the above. went for punchy over nuance in my initial post

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Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by MrTooToo » Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:49 am

lol so we're totally off topic now but I actually come out the other side of the Trinity Study. I think its recommendation of a 4% withdrawal rate was premised on a bond-heavy asset mix that from today's standard would be considered too conservative and old school and frankly not that effective given how bonds have been behaving the past ten years under easy money / QE. If you're in something like a 70/30 or 60/40 equity/bond mix (a much more realistic mix for modern retirees, young or otherwise), there's no reason that you aren't going to be able to manage essentially indefinitely on something like a 4.5% or even 5% withdrawal rate. People clutching pearls and telling you to only extract 3% of your portfolio when you have a globally diversified equity / bond portfolio are counseling too much conservatism and you're going to end up sitting on a huge chunk of principal when you're ready to go to the grave--and if that's your thing, fine, but at least be aware of the implications of such a meager withdrawal rate. And OP, this thread has totally derailed I'm sorry but there's a lot of good genuine advice on the first page :)

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Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by jc9812 » Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:50 pm

OP, sorry you're going through it. I know I'm stating the blindingly obvious, but the fact that these threads pop up regularly is really something, when I stop and think about it. Biglaw culture is so far beyond saving. Agree that the best people can do is try to protect as much time as possible, self care in the form of doctors, meds, etc.

But it is shocking to me that the acceptable status quo = many people will effectively waste years of their lives on this. Or worse, like the poster above who lost a fiance. Not judging anyone for choosing to do it and not suggesting there's any easy fix, or even any fix at all. Firms value their profits, not their people, and that's just the reality of it. I've been there as a former associate and now that I'm out the only thing I regret is staying there as long as I did.

Anyway, I hope things improve for you OP.

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Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:45 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:28 am
As a countervailing view, I attended public school in California from 5th grade onwards and then went to ‘top’ flight private college, foreign masters, and law school. I’m very glad my parents saved the money they would have spent on private secondary education so that I came out of the first two with no debt (I still took out some loans for law school, but could have attended a lower ranked program for free).

For what it’s worth, I found that my public middle and high schools were very rigorous in math and sciences (and many of my classmates excelled at those subjects far beyond me), but lackluster in the humanities. I read a lot independently, so I never felt that much less well-rounded than my Choate and Horace Mann friends.

My two cents: if you loathe your job to the point of depression but you have golden handcuffs from private elementary and secondary school tuition, cut them off and give some serious thought to your priorities—you only get one life.
I totally agree. I went to a great public school in the South and ended up going to my first choice college. My spouse went to a shitty public school in the Northeast and ended up going to their first choice college. We both ended up with the careers we wanted. When we looked for houses, we only looked in towns with great schools. This meant we had to get a crappier house than if we'd looked in towns with bad schools, but it is still a completely adequate and comfortable house. The money we save on K-12 tuition means we can put away enough to send our kids to college with little or no debt (depending on where they end up going), so they can start their adult lives without worrying about student loan payments. And it also means both my spouse and I can take jobs with more of a work-life balance so we can actually spend time with our children. It really is about priorities and tradeoffs.
Spouse and I both went to publics for UG, and T10s for law, but I went to a genuinely elite JHS/HS and spouse attended a non-NYC, non-elite JHS/HS and their general impression was that the education/access I received was a lot better.

My HS had honors/AP everything and access to elite UG courses (some of my classmates were taking MIT math courses for HS credit senior year), my classmates were genuinely intelligent and driven people (bunch of them went on to be successful in roles like starting cutting edge technology companies that are at $1b+ valuations, one of them is a head of dept at a hospital, etc.), idk, it was a demanding place overall.

Spouse and I have talked a lot about where kids would go, etc., I've always been of the view that my HS was overpriced and I'd prefer to just put the kids in public school and fill in the gaps via other programs, but they brought up that for me, UG and LS were genuinely easy and not stressful and that's likely attributable in part to how my HS prepared me for it and their view is they want our kids to similarly be equipped. Not sure I fully agree with that take but it's something I think about.

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Elston Gunn

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Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by Elston Gunn » Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:01 am
7th yr, counsel, big fancy firm. Recently, I can’t feel adrenaline anymore. I don’t seem to feel fear or urgency, or anything at all. But without those feeling, I’m worse than useless — I’m missing deadlines, skipping meetings, ignoring email — it’s objectively awful. Sometimes I cannot get myself to care enough to type the password into my laptop.

Partners have commented. Snarled. One wrote an email so scathing I probably would have run into traffic if I’d read anything of the sort when I was junior. But, I didn’t feel anything when I read it. I actually responded that there were unmet expectations at both ends of the equation, and then I logged out for the day. (Ha!)

I want this to stop. I feel like I’m trapped in a runaway train and I’m powerless to stop myself from destroying my career. But I can’t feel anything. And apparently, without the constant fear, there’s no point to any of this.

I keep saying “I’m better not,” “I’m back,” and I’ll turn it around “next week” or “next time;” but I’m not, and I’m regularly going to bed instead of meeting deadlines.

It’s crazy. I’ve worked so doggedly the past decade. And now I’m just watching it all slip between my fingers. When I try to make myself think about a realistic next step here, I start wishing I lived in a Zombie apocalypse. Seriously.

I don’t know what to do. And I can’t force myself to care, because I can’t feel anything anymore.

Help… I guess.
OP, just to add to what others said, when o was in Biglaw a 6th year at my firm had a mental health issue and one day she was just on leave, but still getting paid and still on the website. She stayed that way for I think 4 months before we got the notice she had a new job. She wasn’t even especially highly thought of either. It may depend on group dynamics, but if you see a therapist and talk to people about what’s happening and tell them you need mental health leave, they will very likely support you in that.

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Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:35 pm

Elston Gunn wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:31 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:01 am
7th yr, counsel, big fancy firm. Recently, I can’t feel adrenaline anymore. I don’t seem to feel fear or urgency, or anything at all. But without those feeling, I’m worse than useless — I’m missing deadlines, skipping meetings, ignoring email — it’s objectively awful. Sometimes I cannot get myself to care enough to type the password into my laptop.

Partners have commented. Snarled. One wrote an email so scathing I probably would have run into traffic if I’d read anything of the sort when I was junior. But, I didn’t feel anything when I read it. I actually responded that there were unmet expectations at both ends of the equation, and then I logged out for the day. (Ha!)

I want this to stop. I feel like I’m trapped in a runaway train and I’m powerless to stop myself from destroying my career. But I can’t feel anything. And apparently, without the constant fear, there’s no point to any of this.

I keep saying “I’m better not,” “I’m back,” and I’ll turn it around “next week” or “next time;” but I’m not, and I’m regularly going to bed instead of meeting deadlines.

It’s crazy. I’ve worked so doggedly the past decade. And now I’m just watching it all slip between my fingers. When I try to make myself think about a realistic next step here, I start wishing I lived in a Zombie apocalypse. Seriously.

I don’t know what to do. And I can’t force myself to care, because I can’t feel anything anymore.

Help… I guess.
OP, just to add to what others said, when o was in Biglaw a 6th year at my firm had a mental health issue and one day she was just on leave, but still getting paid and still on the website. She stayed that way for I think 4 months before we got the notice she had a new job. She wasn’t even especially highly thought of either. It may depend on group dynamics, but if you see a therapist and talk to people about what’s happening and tell them you need mental health leave, they will very likely support you in that.
I know someone who did exactly this, and have been considering mental health leave after bonus comes (am paranoid about anything affecting it).

I thought mental health leave was unpaid. How can I still get paid and do this?

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Elston Gunn

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Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by Elston Gunn » Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:42 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:35 pm
Elston Gunn wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:31 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:01 am
7th yr, counsel, big fancy firm. Recently, I can’t feel adrenaline anymore. I don’t seem to feel fear or urgency, or anything at all. But without those feeling, I’m worse than useless — I’m missing deadlines, skipping meetings, ignoring email — it’s objectively awful. Sometimes I cannot get myself to care enough to type the password into my laptop.

Partners have commented. Snarled. One wrote an email so scathing I probably would have run into traffic if I’d read anything of the sort when I was junior. But, I didn’t feel anything when I read it. I actually responded that there were unmet expectations at both ends of the equation, and then I logged out for the day. (Ha!)

I want this to stop. I feel like I’m trapped in a runaway train and I’m powerless to stop myself from destroying my career. But I can’t feel anything. And apparently, without the constant fear, there’s no point to any of this.

I keep saying “I’m better not,” “I’m back,” and I’ll turn it around “next week” or “next time;” but I’m not, and I’m regularly going to bed instead of meeting deadlines.

It’s crazy. I’ve worked so doggedly the past decade. And now I’m just watching it all slip between my fingers. When I try to make myself think about a realistic next step here, I start wishing I lived in a Zombie apocalypse. Seriously.

I don’t know what to do. And I can’t force myself to care, because I can’t feel anything anymore.

Help… I guess.
OP, just to add to what others said, when o was in Biglaw a 6th year at my firm had a mental health issue and one day she was just on leave, but still getting paid and still on the website. She stayed that way for I think 4 months before we got the notice she had a new job. She wasn’t even especially highly thought of either. It may depend on group dynamics, but if you see a therapist and talk to people about what’s happening and tell them you need mental health leave, they will very likely support you in that.
I know someone who did exactly this, and have been considering mental health leave after bonus comes (am paranoid about anything affecting it).

I thought mental health leave was unpaid. How can I still get paid and do this?
Unfortunately don’t have any insight about that, probably depends on the firm more than anything. And to be clear, I didn’t have that info from the horse’s mouth, it was just what I heard. But even unpaid, getting indefinite time to help sort your life out without having to worry about a resume gap is almost certainly worth it if you’re really struggling.

The Lsat Airbender

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Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by The Lsat Airbender » Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:07 pm

MrTooToo wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:49 am
lol so we're totally off topic now but I actually come out the other side of the Trinity Study. I think its recommendation of a 4% withdrawal rate was premised on a bond-heavy asset mix that from today's standard would be considered too conservative and old school and frankly not that effective given how bonds have been behaving the past ten years under easy money / QE. If you're in something like a 70/30 or 60/40 equity/bond mix (a much more realistic mix for modern retirees, young or otherwise), there's no reason that you aren't going to be able to manage essentially indefinitely on something like a 4.5% or even 5% withdrawal rate. People clutching pearls and telling you to only extract 3% of your portfolio when you have a globally diversified equity / bond portfolio are counseling too much conservatism and you're going to end up sitting on a huge chunk of principal when you're ready to go to the grave--and if that's your thing, fine, but at least be aware of the implications of such a meager withdrawal rate. And OP, this thread has totally derailed I'm sorry but there's a lot of good genuine advice on the first page :)
With the CAPE ratio where it is currently, I'd expect similar returns from a 100% stock portfolio today to what a 50/50 stock/bond portfolio might expect in 1991. Or, from another perspective: bonds being dogshit doesn't mean stocks magically got less risky.

Yes, withdrawing too little is a risk, but I'd much much rather retire with "too much" and bequeath it to charity or my grandkids than become a pauper at 60, 70 or 80 years old.

3% might yet be too conservative: do your own math and look at 3.25%, 3.5%, dynamic strategies, etc. But I think 4% is downright irresponsible for someone with a retirement horizon longer than 30 years.

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Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:06 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:45 am
The money we save on K-12 tuition means we can put away enough to send our kids to college with little or no debt (depending on where they end up going), so they can start their adult lives without worrying about student loan payments. And it also means both my spouse and I can take jobs with more of a work-life balance so we can actually spend time with our children. It really is about priorities and tradeoffs.
All of this is totally reasonable, but the reality is that it's not necessarily easy to just turn that dial. I'm a litigation partner at a v10. I guess I could move to a v100 and hope for better work/life balance, but I'd move only a trivial amount of my business. really my choices are between being basically unconstrained on money but having little time and having more time (though still far from a 9-5 life) and having only 25-50% of my current income. Hopefully you can see how that's not an easy move, even if you think from your perspective the v100/lifestyle job is superior.
Exactly. It's not an easy move at all. If it was, everyone would do it. It's all about figuring what your priorities are - money or time. And there are other options beyond being a partner at a smaller firm. They might involve more of a pay cut/take more time to find/require a bit more creative thinking or flexibility, but if you want it, it is definitely out there. It's just about figuring out what it is that you really want and then doing it.

Anonymous User
Posts: 428107
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Biglaw Sr Associate Burnout and Pain

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:55 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:30 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:06 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:45 am
The money we save on K-12 tuition means we can put away enough to send our kids to college with little or no debt (depending on where they end up going), so they can start their adult lives without worrying about student loan payments. And it also means both my spouse and I can take jobs with more of a work-life balance so we can actually spend time with our children. It really is about priorities and tradeoffs.
All of this is totally reasonable, but the reality is that it's not necessarily easy to just turn that dial. I'm a litigation partner at a v10. I guess I could move to a v100 and hope for better work/life balance, but I'd move only a trivial amount of my business. really my choices are between being basically unconstrained on money but having little time and having more time (though still far from a 9-5 life) and having only 25-50% of my current income. Hopefully you can see how that's not an easy move, even if you think from your perspective the v100/lifestyle job is superior.
Exactly. It's not an easy move at all. If it was, everyone would do it. It's all about figuring what your priorities are - money or time. And there are other options beyond being a partner at a smaller firm. They might involve more of a pay cut/take more time to find/require a bit more creative thinking or flexibility, but if you want it, it is definitely out there. It's just about figuring out what it is that you really want and then doing it.
OP, what PP said. What is your ideal income:work ratio?

As a 7th year (and obviously, correct me if I'm wrong), I'm guessing you're making around $400k-500k a year to bill somewhere between 2000-2300 hours. What would you want to make if you could work 40 hours a week?

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

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