Will RTO be pushed to January? Forum

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Will return to office be pushed to January (or later)?

Poll ended at Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:09 pm

Yes
82
77%
No
25
23%
 
Total votes: 107

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Re: Will RTO be pushed to January?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:35 pm

Kirkland's weekly announcement email today basically said they are full speed ahead toward the November 8 RTO date. There was chatter that maybe it would get bumped but it sure does not sound that way as of now. Probably not a coincidence that the RTO date is one month away and they are implicitly giving us notice that it won't get bumped.

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Re: Will RTO be pushed to January?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:13 pm

Milbank RTO (3 days a week, 1st/2nd years 4 days a week) is now officially set for November 8. The two weeks of Thanksgiving and Christmas/New Year are fully remote optional.

Gotta protect that all important culture...

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Re: Will RTO be pushed to January?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:56 pm

Disappointing to see the Milbank Executive Committee take such a weak position on this issue. For the past few years Milbank proved itself to be a smart and forward looking firm, gaining a much-improved reputation by being a first mover in respect of salaries, relocating to Hudson Yards early, shortening its name and rebranding/overhauling its website. Unfortunately it’s still too insecure about its position and certain partners too scared to rule their fiefdoms via zoom that everyone needs to get dragged back into the office despite the real, continuing and thoroughly unnecessary health risks that it entails. But hey, anything in the name of that all important culture and the integration of first year associates! Sleeping under my desk at 28 Liberty as a first year sure taught me a lot about the #Milbankculture.

Anon bc I obviously still work at the firm and I’m beyond livid as a result of this BS. Might as well start responding to the K&E recruiting emails. At least that way I’ll actually get top of the market compensation, Scott.

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Re: Will RTO be pushed to January?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:37 pm

What I really don't want is my firm cutting down on available office space. I would resent not being able to go into my own, personal office whenever I want because other associates don't want to go in. That's the worst outcome.

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Re: Will RTO be pushed to January?

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:49 am

Anyone have intel on A&P? I'm summering there next year and heard they're going back to the office next week but I can't tell how strict the policy is. really don't wanna be forced into the office more than like 2-3 times a week :/

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TLSposter1990

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Re: Will RTO be pushed to January?

Post by TLSposter1990 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:24 am

Debevoise is also confirmed for a Nov. 8 return. Will be 1-2 days per week through the end of the year, afterwards the policy is 14 days in-office per month (shakes out to 3.5 days in-office per week). Week of Thanksgiving and last two weeks of December are permitted to be fully remote.

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Re: Will RTO be pushed to January?

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:12 pm

TLSposter1990 wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:24 am
Debevoise is also confirmed for a Nov. 8 return. Will be 1-2 days per week through the end of the year, afterwards the policy is 14 days in-office per month (shakes out to 3.5 days in-office per week). Week of Thanksgiving and last two weeks of December are permitted to be fully remote.
I wonder how they're going to enforce that in 2022. I'm at one of those firms that "opened up" back in September or something but made it optional after some backlash. Attendance is spotty and people are kind of doing whatever they want.

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Re: Will RTO be pushed to January?

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:12 pm
TLSposter1990 wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:24 am
Debevoise is also confirmed for a Nov. 8 return. Will be 1-2 days per week through the end of the year, afterwards the policy is 14 days in-office per month (shakes out to 3.5 days in-office per week). Week of Thanksgiving and last two weeks of December are permitted to be fully remote.
I wonder how they're going to enforce that in 2022. I'm at one of those firms that "opened up" back in September or something but made it optional after some backlash. Attendance is spotty and people are kind of doing whatever they want.
Spoiler: they’re not going to do anything to enforce it

Im a current Debevoise associate and face time requirements were already very low pre pandemic

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Re: Will RTO be pushed to January?

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:42 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:27 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:12 pm
TLSposter1990 wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:24 am
Debevoise is also confirmed for a Nov. 8 return. Will be 1-2 days per week through the end of the year, afterwards the policy is 14 days in-office per month (shakes out to 3.5 days in-office per week). Week of Thanksgiving and last two weeks of December are permitted to be fully remote.
I wonder how they're going to enforce that in 2022. I'm at one of those firms that "opened up" back in September or something but made it optional after some backlash. Attendance is spotty and people are kind of doing whatever they want.
Spoiler: they’re not going to do anything to enforce it

Im a current Debevoise associate and face time requirements were already very low pre pandemic
Yeah, even pre-Covid, no one cared how often you were in at my firm. How could they even keep track of 700-800 associates? Nothing's going to be enforced at major, big office NYC firms.

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Anonymous User
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Re: Will RTO be pushed to January?

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:42 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:27 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:12 pm
TLSposter1990 wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:24 am
Debevoise is also confirmed for a Nov. 8 return. Will be 1-2 days per week through the end of the year, afterwards the policy is 14 days in-office per month (shakes out to 3.5 days in-office per week). Week of Thanksgiving and last two weeks of December are permitted to be fully remote.
I wonder how they're going to enforce that in 2022. I'm at one of those firms that "opened up" back in September or something but made it optional after some backlash. Attendance is spotty and people are kind of doing whatever they want.
Spoiler: they’re not going to do anything to enforce it

Im a current Debevoise associate and face time requirements were already very low pre pandemic
Yeah, even pre-Covid, no one cared how often you were in at my firm. How could they even keep track of 700-800 associates? Nothing's going to be enforced at major, big office NYC firms.
Okay let me ask a more interesting question. What happens if a (non junior) associate wants to work remotely 5/5 days a week? Doesn't ask but just does it. Easy to say "nothing happens" but if that's the case then why do we even have this thread?

The Lsat Airbender

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Re: Will RTO be pushed to January?

Post by The Lsat Airbender » Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:56 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:42 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:27 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:12 pm
TLSposter1990 wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:24 am
Debevoise is also confirmed for a Nov. 8 return. Will be 1-2 days per week through the end of the year, afterwards the policy is 14 days in-office per month (shakes out to 3.5 days in-office per week). Week of Thanksgiving and last two weeks of December are permitted to be fully remote.
I wonder how they're going to enforce that in 2022. I'm at one of those firms that "opened up" back in September or something but made it optional after some backlash. Attendance is spotty and people are kind of doing whatever they want.
Spoiler: they’re not going to do anything to enforce it

Im a current Debevoise associate and face time requirements were already very low pre pandemic
Yeah, even pre-Covid, no one cared how often you were in at my firm. How could they even keep track of 700-800 associates? Nothing's going to be enforced at major, big office NYC firms.
Okay let me ask a more interesting question. What happens if a (non junior) associate wants to work remotely 5/5 days a week? Doesn't ask but just does it. Easy to say "nothing happens" but if that's the case then why do we even have this thread?
Varies widely by firm culture but at "face-time-MATTERS" firms, pre-COVID you'd start getting asked to show up to in-person meetings and the like, sometimes on shorter notice than you can take a cab to the office, and gradually piss people off. People will stop by your desk and not find you, etc.

Whether we get back to that post-COVID is the $64,000 question

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Re: Will RTO be pushed to January?

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:56 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:42 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:27 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:12 pm
TLSposter1990 wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:24 am
Debevoise is also confirmed for a Nov. 8 return. Will be 1-2 days per week through the end of the year, afterwards the policy is 14 days in-office per month (shakes out to 3.5 days in-office per week). Week of Thanksgiving and last two weeks of December are permitted to be fully remote.
I wonder how they're going to enforce that in 2022. I'm at one of those firms that "opened up" back in September or something but made it optional after some backlash. Attendance is spotty and people are kind of doing whatever they want.
Spoiler: they’re not going to do anything to enforce it

Im a current Debevoise associate and face time requirements were already very low pre pandemic
Yeah, even pre-Covid, no one cared how often you were in at my firm. How could they even keep track of 700-800 associates? Nothing's going to be enforced at major, big office NYC firms.
Okay let me ask a more interesting question. What happens if a (non junior) associate wants to work remotely 5/5 days a week? Doesn't ask but just does it. Easy to say "nothing happens" but if that's the case then why do we even have this thread?
This thread exists because most lawyers are risk-adverse lame-o's.

Nothing will happen - everyone knows this. Yet, some lawyers will feel too scared to do anything. Others will just continue to not come in as most of us rarely ever went in 5 days/week pre-pandemic anyway. There's also like 2-3 associate classes that have more or less spent close to 0 time in the office and have only known remote life. These guys probably don't know what to expect and will come in as they may think that was the norm pre-covid.

Anonymous User
Posts: 428102
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Will RTO be pushed to January?

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:09 pm

The Lsat Airbender wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:21 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:56 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:42 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:27 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:12 pm
TLSposter1990 wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:24 am
Debevoise is also confirmed for a Nov. 8 return. Will be 1-2 days per week through the end of the year, afterwards the policy is 14 days in-office per month (shakes out to 3.5 days in-office per week). Week of Thanksgiving and last two weeks of December are permitted to be fully remote.
I wonder how they're going to enforce that in 2022. I'm at one of those firms that "opened up" back in September or something but made it optional after some backlash. Attendance is spotty and people are kind of doing whatever they want.
Spoiler: they’re not going to do anything to enforce it

Im a current Debevoise associate and face time requirements were already very low pre pandemic
Yeah, even pre-Covid, no one cared how often you were in at my firm. How could they even keep track of 700-800 associates? Nothing's going to be enforced at major, big office NYC firms.
Okay let me ask a more interesting question. What happens if a (non junior) associate wants to work remotely 5/5 days a week? Doesn't ask but just does it. Easy to say "nothing happens" but if that's the case then why do we even have this thread?
Varies widely by firm culture but at "face-time-MATTERS" firms, pre-COVID you'd start getting asked to show up to in-person meetings and the like, sometimes on shorter notice than you can take a cab to the office, and gradually piss people off. People will stop by your desk and not find you, etc.

Whether we get back to that post-COVID is the $64,000 question
I agree that whether we ever get back to that expectation is an open question - but I am pretty confident that we won’t be there before 2023 at the earliest.

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Anonymous User
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Re: Will RTO be pushed to January?

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:41 pm

Data point: I'm a stub year at a v50 satellite. We haven't officially returned to the office but they try to nudge us to and I'd say de facto expectations are 1-3 days in the office. I've been trying to schedule around when certain partners are in the office. I hope I can continue to WFH a couple days a week, but face time really is important imo, you want to get to know ppl.

I don't see how WFH saves the firm anything. Everyone is still assigned an office (and that includes first years, no sharing).

Anonymous User
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Re: Will RTO be pushed to January?

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:27 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:35 pm
Kirkland's weekly announcement email today basically said they are full speed ahead toward the November 8 RTO date. There was chatter that maybe it would get bumped but it sure does not sound that way as of now. Probably not a coincidence that the RTO date is one month away and they are implicitly giving us notice that it won't get bumped.
For what it's worth, Kirkland is hiring fully remote at Chicago payscale in sub-30 markets for mid-level associates in certain practices (just spoke to a recruiter two weeks ago).

Anonymous User
Posts: 428102
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Will RTO be pushed to January?

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:32 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:27 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:35 pm
Kirkland's weekly announcement email today basically said they are full speed ahead toward the November 8 RTO date. There was chatter that maybe it would get bumped but it sure does not sound that way as of now. Probably not a coincidence that the RTO date is one month away and they are implicitly giving us notice that it won't get bumped.
For what it's worth, Kirkland is hiring fully remote at Chicago payscale in sub-30 markets for mid-level associates in certain practices (just spoke to a recruiter two weeks ago).
What is “sub-30 markets”? Which practices?

Anonymous User
Posts: 428102
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Will RTO be pushed to January?

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:26 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:32 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:27 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:35 pm
Kirkland's weekly announcement email today basically said they are full speed ahead toward the November 8 RTO date. There was chatter that maybe it would get bumped but it sure does not sound that way as of now. Probably not a coincidence that the RTO date is one month away and they are implicitly giving us notice that it won't get bumped.
For what it's worth, Kirkland is hiring fully remote at Chicago payscale in sub-30 markets for mid-level associates in certain practices (just spoke to a recruiter two weeks ago).
What is “sub-30 markets”? Which practices?
Employee Benefits. At least Kansas City which I would consider a sub-30 market population-wise. There were actually two positions open.

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Anonymous User
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Re: Will RTO be pushed to January?

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:04 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:26 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:32 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:27 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:35 pm
Kirkland's weekly announcement email today basically said they are full speed ahead toward the November 8 RTO date. There was chatter that maybe it would get bumped but it sure does not sound that way as of now. Probably not a coincidence that the RTO date is one month away and they are implicitly giving us notice that it won't get bumped.
For what it's worth, Kirkland is hiring fully remote at Chicago payscale in sub-30 markets for mid-level associates in certain practices (just spoke to a recruiter two weeks ago).
What is “sub-30 markets”? Which practices?
Employee Benefits. At least Kansas City which I would consider a sub-30 market population-wise. There were actually two positions open.
I guess my question is more why does the market matter at all if the position is fully remote. Is Kirkland looking for remote employees based in Kansas City for some reason?

Anonymous User
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Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Will RTO be pushed to January?

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:04 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:26 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:32 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:27 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:35 pm
Kirkland's weekly announcement email today basically said they are full speed ahead toward the November 8 RTO date. There was chatter that maybe it would get bumped but it sure does not sound that way as of now. Probably not a coincidence that the RTO date is one month away and they are implicitly giving us notice that it won't get bumped.
For what it's worth, Kirkland is hiring fully remote at Chicago payscale in sub-30 markets for mid-level associates in certain practices (just spoke to a recruiter two weeks ago).
What is “sub-30 markets”? Which practices?
Employee Benefits. At least Kansas City which I would consider a sub-30 market population-wise. There were actually two positions open.
I guess my question is more why does the market matter at all if the position is fully remote. Is Kirkland looking for remote employees based in Kansas City for some reason?
It can matter from an accounting/tax perspective. I know it's ridiculous that this is a concern for some mega-firms that easily have the operational capabilities to do it, but some firms just don't want the administrative hassle of dealing with paystubs/tax filings/employment law of 50 different states.

Anonymous User
Posts: 428102
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Will RTO be pushed to January?

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:42 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:20 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:04 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:26 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:32 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:27 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:35 pm
Kirkland's weekly announcement email today basically said they are full speed ahead toward the November 8 RTO date. There was chatter that maybe it would get bumped but it sure does not sound that way as of now. Probably not a coincidence that the RTO date is one month away and they are implicitly giving us notice that it won't get bumped.
For what it's worth, Kirkland is hiring fully remote at Chicago payscale in sub-30 markets for mid-level associates in certain practices (just spoke to a recruiter two weeks ago).
What is “sub-30 markets”? Which practices?
Employee Benefits. At least Kansas City which I would consider a sub-30 market population-wise. There were actually two positions open.
I guess my question is more why does the market matter at all if the position is fully remote. Is Kirkland looking for remote employees based in Kansas City for some reason?
It can matter from an accounting/tax perspective. I know it's ridiculous that this is a concern for some mega-firms that easily have the operational capabilities to do it, but some firms just don't want the administrative hassle of dealing with paystubs/tax filings/employment law of 50 different states.
I see that my post could have been interpreted to mean that they were only looking for associates in those lower markets, but I meant that they were expanding their search to associates even in those lower markets since they were open to fully remote. All this in context of the whole RTO discussion. Recruiter mentioned that they would want you to fly up every once in a while.

Anonymous User
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Re: Will RTO be pushed to January?

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:01 pm

Kirkland officially confirmed Nov. 8 is full speed ahead and will require proof of vax or a weekly negative COVID test to come in the office (basically implementing the federal reg earlier than it comes into force). No masks required in office for the vaccinated.

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Anonymous User
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Re: Will RTO be pushed to January?

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:35 pm

I’m becoming anxious and demoralized by the lack of recent assurances that K&E still isn’t “a face time kind of place”. Waiting in the dark while peer firms announce flexible policies has been a real slap in the face. Without complete WFH flexibility, we do not have market-leading benefits, and I can’t overstate the importance of this one benefit to many (most?) of us.

Anonymous User
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Re: Will RTO be pushed to January?

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:01 pm

Anyone have a list of / know which firms (besides K&E) are going back in the next few weeks?

Anonymous User
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Re: Will RTO be pushed to January?

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:35 pm
I’m becoming anxious and demoralized by the lack of recent assurances that K&E still isn’t “a face time kind of place”. Waiting in the dark while peer firms announce flexible policies has been a real slap in the face. Without complete WFH flexibility, we do not have market-leading benefits, and I can’t overstate the importance of this one benefit to many (most?) of us.
Sounds like you need to start looking for a new job. Luckily the lateral market is on fire right now.

Edited to add: I don't mean that as harshly as it maybe sounds. Business is business. They took a position on RTO, and you should take them at their word. There's never a bad time to get an outside offer.

K&E was always a place where nobody forced you to come in (same as most other big firms). But in any career that is up-or-out, you're going to suffer if you don't go in, because other people will be there.

In any case, you're not waiting in the dark, and you haven't been slapped in the face. K&E has said exactly what the policy is: you have a job in an office.

Anonymous User
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Re: Will RTO be pushed to January?

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:32 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:35 pm
I’m becoming anxious and demoralized by the lack of recent assurances that K&E still isn’t “a face time kind of place”. Waiting in the dark while peer firms announce flexible policies has been a real slap in the face. Without complete WFH flexibility, we do not have market-leading benefits, and I can’t overstate the importance of this one benefit to many (most?) of us.
the hysterics you people traffic in are insane. vast majority of ppl don't care at all about RTO, if you'd been back in office at all the past month or two you'd see that tons of people are back in.

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

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