Davis Polk Return to Office Sept 13 Forum

[Skool]

Im v pro WFH but DPW isn't wrong that the vaccinated can basically live a normal life again. The odds of getting sick w COVId as a vaccinated person are akin to the flu based on available data and the odds of hospitalization/death are EXTREMELY minuscule. No one in favor of more precautions for 90%+ vaccinated communities is willing to say what the end game is given COVID ain't going anywhere: is it masks forever indoors/no offices, business districts/social restrictions?

All to say I understand DPW's logic but would prefer it not happen.

I think most people recognize that the risk of COVID exposure due to in-office attendance is pretty low. Most of us are going to restaurants/bars etc.

Im not totally sure what is the basis for saying covid exposure risk due to in office attendance is low, especially when you have to take the subway to work. Mask compliance and vaccination rates on mass transit is variable to say the least. Breakthrough cases are unpleasant and not at all rare. Plus, we still need to figure out whether long covid is a thing for vaccinated people who get mild cases without hospitalization. These are risks that idiot boomer finance partners really can’t control and aren’t qualified to tell associates they shouldn’t mind assuming for the sake of the “culture.”

And I’ll bet anything, the same boomer partners itching to get back to the office will be the same boomer partners bitching about masks in office and who will both make you feel weird about wearing a mask and call in person meetings where they refuse to wear one.

Also, I personally don’t go to restaurants because we are in the middle of an uncontrolled pandemic spread through respirations. Not sure what other colleagues are smoking.

[Anonymous User]

Im v pro WFH but DPW isn't wrong that the vaccinated can basically live a normal life again. The odds of getting sick w COVId as a vaccinated person are akin to the flu based on available data and the odds of hospitalization/death are EXTREMELY minuscule. No one in favor of more precautions for 90%+ vaccinated communities is willing to say what the end game is given COVID ain't going anywhere: is it masks forever indoors/no offices, business districts/social restrictions?

All to say I understand DPW's logic but would prefer it not happen.

I think most people recognize that the risk of COVID exposure due to in-office attendance is pretty low. Most of us are going to restaurants/bars etc.

Im not totally sure what is the basis for saying covid exposure risk due to in office attendance is low, especially when you have to take the subway to work. Mask compliance and vaccination rates on mass transit is variable to say the least. Breakthrough cases are unpleasant and not at all rare. Plus, we still need to figure out whether long covid is a thing for vaccinated people who get mild cases without hospitalization. These are risks that idiot boomer finance partners really can’t control and aren’t qualified to tell associates they shouldn’t mind assuming for the sake of the “culture.”

And I’ll bet anything, the same boomer partners itching to get back to the office will be the same boomer partners bitching about masks in office and who will both make you feel weird about wearing a mask and call in person meetings where they refuse to wear one.

Also, I personally don’t go to restaurants because we are in the middle of an uncontrolled pandemic spread through respirations. Not sure what other colleagues are smoking.

How do you define rare? A quick search says that breakthrough hospitalizations in New Jersey are 7/100,000, or .007% (NY isn't available). And that over 70% of these cases are over the age of 65.

Not sure what city/state you're in but bars/clubs are just about fully open (indoors and maskless) in NYC for vacc'd people.

[Skool]

To be clear, I wasn't expressing a concern about breakthrough infections leading to hospitalizations. I was expressing a concern about the risk of breakthrough infections period, in a context where there is uncertainty about long COVID in vaccinated people.

My thinking was based off of this report by the New York Times which places the chances of a break through infection at 1 in 5000 for vaccinated people. Maybe you think this is a laughably small risk, but I'm not inclined to start taking chances going to the office or restaurants while these matters are still being studied. Especially in light of the ongoing debate about waning vaccine immunity and boosters.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/07/brie ... delta.html

[Anonymous User]

To be clear, I wasn't expressing a concern about breakthrough infections leading to hospitalizations. I was expressing a concern about the risk of breakthrough infections period, in a context where there is uncertainty about long COVID in vaccinated people.

My thinking was based off of this report by the New York Times which places the chances of a break through infection at 1 in 5000 for vaccinated people. Maybe you think this is a laughably small risk, but I'm not inclined to start taking chances going to the office or restaurants while these matters are still being studied. Especially in light of the ongoing debate about waning vaccine immunity and boosters.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/07/brie ... delta.html

I'm not going to get into a debate on the reasonableness of COVID/infection fear, but I think my point is that the majority of the proponents for WFH flexibility want such flexibility regardless of COVID.

If we were to wipe COVID off the face of the planet tomorrow, there would still be a push for WFH flexibility. That should be our starting point of argument - whether COVID is around or not, we want WFH flexibility.

[Anonymous User]

Any updates? I’m guessing Friday turnout in-office is low?

[Anonymous User]

Any updates? I’m guessing Friday turnout in-office is low?

I wouldn't know because I wasn't there.

Day 7? I think. My floor is mostly empty. The people I see around were the same people who came in during the optional summer months and some first years/juniors who are trying to impress/develop or something idk.

[Anonymous User]

Im v pro WFH but DPW isn't wrong that the vaccinated can basically live a normal life again. The odds of getting sick w COVId as a vaccinated person are akin to the flu based on available data and the odds of hospitalization/death are EXTREMELY minuscule. No one in favor of more precautions for 90%+ vaccinated communities is willing to say what the end game is given COVID ain't going anywhere: is it masks forever indoors/no offices, business districts/social restrictions?

All to say I understand DPW's logic but would prefer it not happen.

I think most people recognize that the risk of COVID exposure due to in-office attendance is pretty low. Most of us are going to restaurants/bars etc.

Im not totally sure what is the basis for saying covid exposure risk due to in office attendance is low, especially when you have to take the subway to work. Mask compliance and vaccination rates on mass transit is variable to say the least. Breakthrough cases are unpleasant and not at all rare. Plus, we still need to figure out whether long covid is a thing for vaccinated people who get mild cases without hospitalization. These are risks that idiot boomer finance partners really can’t control and aren’t qualified to tell associates they shouldn’t mind assuming for the sake of the “culture.”

And I’ll bet anything, the same boomer partners itching to get back to the office will be the same boomer partners bitching about masks in office and who will both make you feel weird about wearing a mask and call in person meetings where they refuse to wear one.

Also, I personally don’t go to restaurants because we are in the middle of an uncontrolled pandemic spread through respirations. Not sure what other colleagues are smoking.

How do you define rare? A quick search says that breakthrough hospitalizations in New Jersey are 7/100,000, or .007% (NY isn't available). And that over 70% of these cases are over the age of 65.

Not sure what city/state you're in but bars/clubs are just about fully open (indoors and maskless) in NYC for vacc'd people.

The concern isn't breakthrough hospitalizations it's people who have unvaccinated children infecting their own kids because of office exposure, which is still a major issue for many. This is one of the reasons you're seeing anecdotes like "the young attorneys and the boomers want to be back but the senior associates and junior partners are fighting hard against it." That's because senior associate / junior partner tends to line up with "people who have young kids." Once kids under 12 / under 2 can be vaccinated it's a different ball of wax but right now this is totally tone deaf by the firm.

[jarofsoup]

Does DPW have good life insurance?

[Anonymous User]

Im v pro WFH but DPW isn't wrong that the vaccinated can basically live a normal life again. The odds of getting sick w COVId as a vaccinated person are akin to the flu based on available data and the odds of hospitalization/death are EXTREMELY minuscule. No one in favor of more precautions for 90%+ vaccinated communities is willing to say what the end game is given COVID ain't going anywhere: is it masks forever indoors/no offices, business districts/social restrictions?

All to say I understand DPW's logic but would prefer it not happen.

I think most people recognize that the risk of COVID exposure due to in-office attendance is pretty low. Most of us are going to restaurants/bars etc.

Im not totally sure what is the basis for saying covid exposure risk due to in office attendance is low, especially when you have to take the subway to work. Mask compliance and vaccination rates on mass transit is variable to say the least. Breakthrough cases are unpleasant and not at all rare. Plus, we still need to figure out whether long covid is a thing for vaccinated people who get mild cases without hospitalization. These are risks that idiot boomer finance partners really can’t control and aren’t qualified to tell associates they shouldn’t mind assuming for the sake of the “culture.”

And I’ll bet anything, the same boomer partners itching to get back to the office will be the same boomer partners bitching about masks in office and who will both make you feel weird about wearing a mask and call in person meetings where they refuse to wear one.

Also, I personally don’t go to restaurants because we are in the middle of an uncontrolled pandemic spread through respirations. Not sure what other colleagues are smoking.

How do you define rare? A quick search says that breakthrough hospitalizations in New Jersey are 7/100,000, or .007% (NY isn't available). And that over 70% of these cases are over the age of 65.

Not sure what city/state you're in but bars/clubs are just about fully open (indoors and maskless) in NYC for vacc'd people.

The concern isn't breakthrough hospitalizations it's people who have unvaccinated children infecting their own kids because of office exposure, which is still a major issue for many. This is one of the reasons you're seeing anecdotes like "the young attorneys and the boomers want to be back but the senior associates and junior partners are fighting hard against it." That's because senior associate / junior partner tends to line up with "people who have young kids." Once kids under 12 / under 2 can be vaccinated it's a different ball of wax but right now this is totally tone deaf by the firm.

Genuinely curious, do you think firms should close during flu season due to its impact on children? There are 50-200 deaths and 10-25k hospitalization among children below 10 every year from flu. That's way higher than COVID, at least with hospitalization, even w/o a vaccine.

[Bdgerald]

Im v pro WFH but DPW isn't wrong that the vaccinated can basically live a normal life again. The odds of getting sick w COVId as a vaccinated person are akin to the flu based on available data and the odds of hospitalization/death are EXTREMELY minuscule. No one in favor of more precautions for 90%+ vaccinated communities is willing to say what the end game is given COVID ain't going anywhere: is it masks forever indoors/no offices, business districts/social restrictions?

All to say I understand DPW's logic but would prefer it not happen.

I think most people recognize that the risk of COVID exposure due to in-office attendance is pretty low. Most of us are going to restaurants/bars etc.

Im not totally sure what is the basis for saying covid exposure risk due to in office attendance is low, especially when you have to take the subway to work. Mask compliance and vaccination rates on mass transit is variable to say the least. Breakthrough cases are unpleasant and not at all rare. Plus, we still need to figure out whether long covid is a thing for vaccinated people who get mild cases without hospitalization. These are risks that idiot boomer finance partners really can’t control and aren’t qualified to tell associates they shouldn’t mind assuming for the sake of the “culture.”

And I’ll bet anything, the same boomer partners itching to get back to the office will be the same boomer partners bitching about masks in office and who will both make you feel weird about wearing a mask and call in person meetings where they refuse to wear one.

Also, I personally don’t go to restaurants because we are in the middle of an uncontrolled pandemic spread through respirations. Not sure what other colleagues are smoking.

How do you define rare? A quick search says that breakthrough hospitalizations in New Jersey are 7/100,000, or .007% (NY isn't available). And that over 70% of these cases are over the age of 65.

Not sure what city/state you're in but bars/clubs are just about fully open (indoors and maskless) in NYC for vacc'd people.

The concern isn't breakthrough hospitalizations it's people who have unvaccinated children infecting their own kids because of office exposure, which is still a major issue for many. This is one of the reasons you're seeing anecdotes like "the young attorneys and the boomers want to be back but the senior associates and junior partners are fighting hard against it." That's because senior associate / junior partner tends to line up with "people who have young kids." Once kids under 12 / under 2 can be vaccinated it's a different ball of wax but right now this is totally tone deaf by the firm.

Genuinely curious, do you think firms should close during flu season due to its impact on children? There are 50-200 deaths and 10-25k hospitalization among children below 10 every year from flu. That's way higher than COVID, at least with hospitalization, even w/o a vaccine.

Some portion of the hesitancy has nothing to do with Covid specifically and everything to do with pushing back against in-person office culture.

[Anonymous User]

Genuinely curious, do you think firms should close during flu season due to its impact on children? There are 50-200 deaths and 10-25k hospitalization among children below 10 every year from flu. That's way higher than COVID, at least with hospitalization, even w/o a vaccine.

I don't think that's "way higher" than covid (more like comparable), but there's also a flu vaccine for kids over 6 mos.

[Anonymous User]

Genuinely curious, do you think firms should close during flu season due to its impact on children? There are 50-200 deaths and 10-25k hospitalization among children below 10 every year from flu. That's way higher than COVID, at least with hospitalization, even w/o a vaccine.

I don't think that's "way higher" than covid (more like comparable), but there's also a flu vaccine for kids over 6 mos.

Correct. So his point was false equivalence. As I said, the situation will be different once the vaccine is authorized. Also, there are currently more kids (under 12) hospitalized because of COVID than at any point before; it's now moving through the ranks of the unvaccinated, as was predicted. So good on DPW to push sitting around in an office spreading (mild to asymptomatic) COVID so we can bring it back home to our unvaccinated families.

[Anonymous User]

Im v pro WFH but DPW isn't wrong that the vaccinated can basically live a normal life again. The odds of getting sick w COVId as a vaccinated person are akin to the flu based on available data and the odds of hospitalization/death are EXTREMELY minuscule. No one in favor of more precautions for 90%+ vaccinated communities is willing to say what the end game is given COVID ain't going anywhere: is it masks forever indoors/no offices, business districts/social restrictions?

All to say I understand DPW's logic but would prefer it not happen.

I think most people recognize that the risk of COVID exposure due to in-office attendance is pretty low. Most of us are going to restaurants/bars etc.

Im not totally sure what is the basis for saying covid exposure risk due to in office attendance is low, especially when you have to take the subway to work. Mask compliance and vaccination rates on mass transit is variable to say the least. Breakthrough cases are unpleasant and not at all rare. Plus, we still need to figure out whether long covid is a thing for vaccinated people who get mild cases without hospitalization. These are risks that idiot boomer finance partners really can’t control and aren’t qualified to tell associates they shouldn’t mind assuming for the sake of the “culture.”

And I’ll bet anything, the same boomer partners itching to get back to the office will be the same boomer partners bitching about masks in office and who will both make you feel weird about wearing a mask and call in person meetings where they refuse to wear one.

Also, I personally don’t go to restaurants because we are in the middle of an uncontrolled pandemic spread through respirations. Not sure what other colleagues are smoking.

How do you define rare? A quick search says that breakthrough hospitalizations in New Jersey are 7/100,000, or .007% (NY isn't available). And that over 70% of these cases are over the age of 65.

Not sure what city/state you're in but bars/clubs are just about fully open (indoors and maskless) in NYC for vacc'd people.

The concern isn't breakthrough hospitalizations it's people who have unvaccinated children infecting their own kids because of office exposure, which is still a major issue for many. This is one of the reasons you're seeing anecdotes like "the young attorneys and the boomers want to be back but the senior associates and junior partners are fighting hard against it." That's because senior associate / junior partner tends to line up with "people who have young kids." Once kids under 12 / under 2 can be vaccinated it's a different ball of wax but right now this is totally tone deaf by the firm.

Genuinely curious, do you think firms should close during flu season due to its impact on children? There are 50-200 deaths and 10-25k hospitalization among children below 10 every year from flu. That's way higher than COVID, at least with hospitalization, even w/o a vaccine.

Some portion of the hesitancy has nothing to do with Covid specifically and everything to do with pushing back against in-person office culture.

Not for me. I'm more than happy to be back in the office once my kids are vax'd. It's entirely a health concern for me.

[Pennoyer v. Meh]

Genuinely curious, do you think firms should close during flu season due to its impact on children? There are 50-200 deaths and 10-25k hospitalization among children below 10 every year from flu. That's way higher than COVID, at least with hospitalization, even w/o a vaccine.

Are you really pushing the flu/COVID comparison? I thought we were beyond that by now. Also, have you not seen the way COVID is currently wreaking havoc on children under 12? That's way worse than what the flu does. So you're just wrong on every count.

[Anonymous User]

Data published by the New York Times in June 2021, admittedly pre-Delta:


What data are you relying on when you say that “COVID is currently wreaking havoc on children under 12”?

[Anonymous User]

Genuinely curious, do you think firms should close during flu season due to its impact on children? There are 50-200 deaths and 10-25k hospitalization among children below 10 every year from flu. That's way higher than COVID, at least with hospitalization, even w/o a vaccine.

Are you really pushing the flu/COVID comparison? I thought we were beyond that by now. Also, have you not seen the way COVID is currently wreaking havoc on children under 12? That's way worse than what the flu does. So you're just wrong on every count.

I mean the comparison is valid - flu affects children under 12, even vaccinated ones as we often miss the dominant flu strain, as much as it COVID does. We have now 19 months of evidence on this including months of Delta. Totally different calculus for adults and the elderly but don't just act outraged - show me how I'm wrong

[nixy]

Data published by the New York Times in June 2021, admittedly pre-Delta:


What data are you relying on when you say that “COVID is currently wreaking havoc on children under 12”?

Data post-Delta, obviously. No idea why you’d offer pre-Delta data.

[Anonymous User]

What data are you relying on when you say that “COVID is currently wreaking havoc on children under 12”?

Data post-Delta, obviously. No idea why you’d offer pre-Delta data.

I offered it because it was readily available, shed light on the topic under discussion, and from an authoritative source.

Which data post-Delta are you referring to? Hyperlink appreciated.

[nixy]

What data are you relying on when you say that “COVID is currently wreaking havoc on children under 12”?

Data post-Delta, obviously. No idea why you’d offer pre-Delta data.

I offered it because it was readily available, shed light on the topic under discussion, and from an authoritative source.

Which data post-Delta are you referring to? Hyperlink appreciated.

NPR talked about the increase: https://www.npr.org/2021/08/23/10304304 ... s-children (this was all the time I was willing to spend since I presume you can Google as easily as I can.)

You can quibble about “wreaking havoc” if you like but I’m not going to tell parents they shouldn’t worry about bringing covid home to their unvaccinated kids.

[Anonymous User]

What data are you relying on when you say that “COVID is currently wreaking havoc on children under 12”?

Data post-Delta, obviously. No idea why you’d offer pre-Delta data.

I offered it because it was readily available, shed light on the topic under discussion, and from an authoritative source.

Which data post-Delta are you referring to? Hyperlink appreciated.

We're experiencing a surge in under-12 cases associated with Delta. Linking to a stat. table from before the Delta surge is totally non-responsive to the point being discussed.

[Anonymous User]

LMAO this thread goes to show that even smart people can have their sense of reality completely warped by narrative rather than data. This is from the CDC (source: https://www.aappublications.org/news/20 ... ons-090321):

"About 1.4 of every 100,000 children and adolescents were hospitalized for COVID-19, according to another study of 14 states . . . Researchers looked for signs if delta is causing more severe disease. Both studies found statistically similar levels of severity before and after delta was dominant. For instance, about 23% of those hospitalized were admitted to the intensive care unit in the delta period compared to 27% pre-delta. Likewise, 10% required invasive mechanical ventilation and 2% died in the delta period compared to 6% and 1%, respectively, before delta.

“Although we are seeing more cases in children and more overall cases, these studies demonstrated that there was not increased disease severity in children,” Dr. Walensky said. “Instead, more children have COVID-19 because there is more disease in the community.”

The hospitalizations #s translate into the a bad flu season for children. That rate is 1/6 of Vermont's hospitalization rate, today, for example. If you never want to go back to the office, works for me but don't severely overestimate public health risks to justify it.

[Anonymous User]

What data are you relying on when you say that “COVID is currently wreaking havoc on children under 12”?

Data post-Delta, obviously. No idea why you’d offer pre-Delta data.

I offered it because it was readily available, shed light on the topic under discussion, and from an authoritative source.

Which data post-Delta are you referring to? Hyperlink appreciated.

We're experiencing a surge in under-12 cases associated with Delta. Linking to a stat. table from before the Delta surge is totally non-responsive to the point being discussed.

I'm not the person you're debating with, but I think it's fairly well established that delta may be more contagious but is not more severe than the original strain.

So the mortality stats wouldn't be any different for people already barely affected by this.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/03/heal ... rates.html

"But based on the limited data available so far, it does not appear that the Delta variant is affecting the incidence of severe disease or deaths among children, which have been somewhat steady and relatively low throughout the pandemic."

Now we can go on to debate about severity vs hospitalization etc.

[Anonymous User]

What data are you relying on when you say that “COVID is currently wreaking havoc on children under 12”?

Data post-Delta, obviously. No idea why you’d offer pre-Delta data.

I offered it because it was readily available, shed light on the topic under discussion, and from an authoritative source.

Which data post-Delta are you referring to? Hyperlink appreciated.

We're experiencing a surge in under-12 cases associated with Delta. Linking to a stat. table from before the Delta surge is totally non-responsive to the point being discussed.

OK, cases among children are surging? Got it. Please show me (hyperlink) data on surging hospitalization and deaths among children. Strange that people are so reluctant to bring forward actual data.

I know comparisons to other respiratory viruses are somehow verboten, but you do know that cases of the flu "surge" among children each winter, right? Kids being infected by a (to them) harmless virus via school / parental transmission is nothing new. What is new is the hysteria about it. The typical child faces 10x the risk of death from being driven around vs. catching covid.

P.S.: Before you bring up long covid, please refer to Table 1 in this study published by the UK government: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... august2021

P.P.S.: I realize that I/we are contributing to the derailment of this thread, which could actually serve a useful purpose chronicling the DPW return to office. So this will be my final post on this issue.

[JusticeChuckleNutz]

What data are you relying on when you say that “COVID is currently wreaking havoc on children under 12”?

Data post-Delta, obviously. No idea why you’d offer pre-Delta data.

I offered it because it was readily available, shed light on the topic under discussion, and from an authoritative source.

Which data post-Delta are you referring to? Hyperlink appreciated.

We're experiencing a surge in under-12 cases associated with Delta. Linking to a stat. table from before the Delta surge is totally non-responsive to the point being discussed.

OK, cases among children are surging? Got it. Please show me (hyperlink) data on surging hospitalization and deaths among children. Strange that people are so reluctant to bring forward actual data.

I know comparisons to other respiratory viruses are somehow verboten, but you do know that cases of the flu "surge" among children each winter, right? Kids being infected by a (to them) harmless virus via school / parental transmission is nothing new. What is new is the hysteria about it. The typical child faces 10x the risk of death from being driven around vs. catching covid.

P.S.: Before you bring up long covid, please refer to Table 1 in this study published by the UK government: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... august2021

P.P.S.: I realize that I/we are contributing to the derailment of this thread, which could actually serve a useful purpose chronicling the DPW return to office. So this will be my final post on this issue.

Man, who knew it would only take one little pandemic to break y'all. Every return-to-office thread now devolves into some variation of this same conversation. Shit is exhausting.

[Pennoyer v. Meh]

Man, who knew it would only take one little pandemic to break y'all. Every return-to-office thread now devolves into some variation of this same conversation. Shit is exhausting.

Well, yeah. This is exhausting. I'm exhausted. It seems to me like the DPW people are really just choosing to come into the office if they want to, as opposed to any mandatory return?