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I know it's out there... definitely don't post it here, but DMs are thing, right?

ExpOriental wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 03, 2021 5:34 pm

I know it's out there... definitely don't post it here, but DMs are thing, right?

wait, what? I don't have it, but spill the tea on what you're talking about please

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 03, 2021 5:36 pm

ExpOriental wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 03, 2021 5:34 pm

I know it's out there... definitely don't post it here, but DMs are thing, right?

wait, what? I don't have it, but spill the tea on what you're talking about please

GD accidentally mailed out a spreadsheet to applicants containing applicant info and interview notes. It's a pretty disastrous blunder, though no harm done, really. They're trying to have people delete it, but that's obviously never going to happen. I'm not close to this situation in any way, I'm just morbidly curious.

Full story is on Law360.

ExpOriental wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 03, 2021 5:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 03, 2021 5:36 pm

ExpOriental wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 03, 2021 5:34 pm

I know it's out there... definitely don't post it here, but DMs are thing, right?

wait, what? I don't have it, but spill the tea on what you're talking about please

GD accidentally mailed out a spreadsheet to applicants containing applicant info and interview notes. It's a pretty disastrous blunder, though no harm done, really. They're trying to have people delete it, but that's obviously never going to happen. I'm not close to this situation in any way, I'm just morbidly curious.

Full story is on Law360.

I’d love to pass eyes on this too, if anyone’s doing a public service

Same, I'd love to see it. Feel free to remove the column with the names or whatever.

I'm not personally affected. But the funny thing about the article reporting the story is that it seemed at all noteworthy to the writer that the spreadsheet has a column titled "ethnically diverse." In fact, they needed to get a quote from the CEO of the Institute for Inclusion in the Legal Profession to comment on that column's very existence.

Re how it's possible GDC collects the data for that column, "[t]hat application of what I surmise is uninformed judgment is offensive," the person stated. What?! How do these people think such info is gathered in an imperfect state of information, and how do they think hiring decisions in 2021 are made?!

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:12 pm

I'm not personally affected. But the funny thing about the article reporting the story is that it seemed at all noteworthy to the writer that the spreadsheet has a column titled "ethnically diverse." In fact, they needed to get a quote from the CEO of the Institute for Inclusion in the Legal Profession to comment on that column's very existence.

Re how it's possible GDC collects the data for that column, "[t]hat application of what I surmise is uninformed judgment is offensive," the person stated. What?! How do these people think such info is gathered in an imperfect state of information, and how do they think hiring decisions in 2021 are made?!

Okay now I’m only more intrigued.

jbagelboy wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:17 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:12 pm

I'm not personally affected. But the funny thing about the article reporting the story is that it seemed at all noteworthy to the writer that the spreadsheet has a column titled "ethnically diverse." In fact, they needed to get a quote from the CEO of the Institute for Inclusion in the Legal Profession to comment on that column's very existence.

Re how it's possible GDC collects the data for that column, "[t]hat application of what I surmise is uninformed judgment is offensive," the person stated. What?! How do these people think such info is gathered in an imperfect state of information, and how do they think hiring decisions in 2021 are made?!

Okay now I’m only more intrigued.

Are people actually surprised firms are making an effort to diversify their incoming classes?

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:48 pm

jbagelboy wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:17 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:12 pm

I'm not personally affected. But the funny thing about the article reporting the story is that it seemed at all noteworthy to the writer that the spreadsheet has a column titled "ethnically diverse." In fact, they needed to get a quote from the CEO of the Institute for Inclusion in the Legal Profession to comment on that column's very existence.

Re how it's possible GDC collects the data for that column, "[t]hat application of what I surmise is uninformed judgment is offensive," the person stated. What?! How do these people think such info is gathered in an imperfect state of information, and how do they think hiring decisions in 2021 are made?!

Okay now I’m only more intrigued.

Are people actually surprised firms are making an effort to diversify their incoming classes?

TLS/ATL on the one hand: "THESE FUKKING LAW FIRMS ARE NOT HIRING ENOUGH URMS - RACEIST [sic]"
TLS/ATL on the other hand: "WHY IN THE FUKKING FUKK DO THESE LAW FIRMS HAVE A COLUMN FOR TRACKING URM RECRUITS??!!"

I would also love to see this

lol as someone who just got an SA offer I would love to see this chart

Can't speak for big law; but in IB diversity hire is real. Multiple bulge bracket banks have specific diversity quota (i.e. need to hire a certain number of LGBTQ / non-white candidates) to be filled for each summer analyst class.

ahahahahaha ok as someone who didn't get an offer from GD I definitely want to see this

Should I advise my 1L mentee to not put the Jewish law student group on his resume? Serious question. Anon because sensitive topic and revealing prior posts

I don't know how you make that big of a mistake. I definitely interested in their metrics though

Isn’t Gibson one of the more grade sensitive firms? I’d be curious how they view GPA across different tiers of schools (i.e. a 3.X at T20 is equated to a 3.Y at T6).

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 04, 2021 11:46 am

Should I advise my 1L mentee to not put the Jewish law student group on his resume? Serious question. Anon because sensitive topic and revealing prior posts

I'm being completely genuine here, but I was told by someone to take it off my resume. This person is actually Jewish, but said there is still inherently a bias against Jewish people. I took it off. Nonetheless, if a firm/government org/etc. doesn't take you because you're Jewish, would you really want to work at that place? I thought about that afterward, so that could also be a consideration for your mentee.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 04, 2021 7:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 04, 2021 11:46 am

Should I advise my 1L mentee to not put the Jewish law student group on his resume? Serious question. Anon because sensitive topic and revealing prior posts

I'm being completely genuine here, but I was told by someone to take it off my resume. This person is actually Jewish, but said there is still inherently a bias against Jewish people. I took it off. Nonetheless, if a firm/government org/etc. doesn't take you because you're Jewish, would you really want to work at that place? I thought about that afterward, so that could also be a consideration for your mentee.

First, I'm sorry we live in a world and country where that had to be real advice. We've got a long way to go.

Second, I think there's likely no benefit (and obviously should not be a drawback) to putting a Jewish law students association on your resume. (If you have a leadership role, maybe some very minor benefit.) To be blunt, firms (at least mine) look for specific orgs [HLS names here]: BLSA, NALSA, La Alianza, APALSA, MELSA, and Lambda as proxies for diversity. Of course with some of those you can make an educated guess based on the appearance of the person you're interviewing, but it's easier, more systematic, and less prone to stereotypes and bias to just look at the orgs. (Especially so with Lambda, where that's usually the only way of knowing.)

Third, I might actually advise putting it on your resume for precisely the reason identified above. If there are people who've been entrusted with some portion of hiring responsibility at a firm who would discriminate against you, why would you want to work there? I recognize that landing big law jobs can be rough and maybe this advice doesn't apply if you're going to be lucky to get one offer. But if you anticipate having options, I say self-select away from the bigots.

Certain Jews (i.e., visibly religious, yeshiva on resume, pro Israel activism, etc.) face active discrimination. All Jews, religious or not, get zero "diversity" boost. We're no longer in the '50s when Jews couldn't even apply to non Jewish firms, but there's no advantage to identifying it. Just the facts of life.

As to "would you really want to work there". Yes, I would. Obviously I'd prefer to work in a place that accepts me for who I am. But I need the money and would be willing to suffer moderate bigotry for $205k. My grandparents suffered a lot more, believe me, and nobody paid them for it.

As unethical as it feels, I'd be quite interested in seeing this too.

cisscum wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 05, 2021 4:04 am

The idea that Jews suffer discrimination in BIGLAW is so laughable I can't imagine saying it with a straight face. Let's calculate how many Jews are in BIGLAW and compare it to their 2% of the population and see what numbers we get

You realize how that makes ZERO sense, right? I don’t even know where to start…

A) If the pool of “qualified” Jewish applicants is exponentially higher than another group, Jews could still be blatantly discriminated against and still outperform their population percentage. Why not compare percentage of Jews who go to law school compared to a different class for starters if you don’t follow…

B) Most of these posts refer to ill-treatment for being Jewish ONCE HIRED- that has nothing to do with how many are hired OR HOLD THOSE POSITIONS

C) I’ve experienced it firsthand, and know many others who have as well. I also would never justify (and can’t imagine someone justifying “with a straight face”) that bigotry w/r/t a class doesn’t exist because there are a so many individuals in that class who would be subject to that bigotry.

I’ve seen some takes on TLS, but this is, wow…

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 04, 2021 10:12 pm

Certain Jews (i.e., visibly religious, yeshiva on resume, pro Israel activism, etc.) face active discrimination. All Jews, religious or not, get zero "diversity" boost. We're no longer in the '50s when Jews couldn't even apply to non Jewish firms, but there's no advantage to identifying it. Just the facts of life.

As to "would you really want to work there". Yes, I would. Obviously I'd prefer to work in a place that accepts me for who I am. But I need the money and would be willing to suffer moderate bigotry for $205k. My grandparents suffered a lot more, believe me, and nobody paid them for it.

This seems to answer your question then - take it off. (Or if you’re not the person who originally asked, their question - not sure which anon is who.) I agree entirely that anti-Semitism is out there. I do have a really hard time seeing anyone in law firm hiring dinging someone at the application stage for having the Jewish student association on their resume - I think most anti-Semitism in that context would express itself differently - but I agree that having a Jewish student org on the resume isn’t generally going to add such a measurable boost that removing it would weaken the application.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 04, 2021 7:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 04, 2021 11:46 am

Should I advise my 1L mentee to not put the Jewish law student group on his resume? Serious question. Anon because sensitive topic and revealing prior posts

I'm being completely genuine here, but I was told by someone to take it off my resume. This person is actually Jewish, but said there is still inherently a bias against Jewish people. I took it off. Nonetheless, if a firm/government org/etc. doesn't take you because you're Jewish, would you really want to work at that place? I thought about that afterward, so that could also be a consideration for your mentee.

This all depends on the way in which they evaluate candidates, no? If certain groups receive a boost, and others don’t, then the resume decisions doesn’t matter. Without “Jewish law group” on resume, many Jews pass for white, who don’t get any boost. Now, if they look at Jews and whites differently, which might make sense in their twisted system, it would matter.

Would love to hear from a hiring attorney how “diversity” factors into these decisions.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 04, 2021 10:12 pm

Certain Jews (i.e., visibly religious, yeshiva on resume, pro Israel activism, etc.) face active discrimination. All Jews, religious or not, get zero "diversity" boost. We're no longer in the '50s when Jews couldn't even apply to non Jewish firms, but there's no advantage to identifying it. Just the facts of life.

As to "would you really want to work there". Yes, I would. Obviously I'd prefer to work in a place that accepts me for who I am. But I need the money and would be willing to suffer moderate bigotry for $205k. My grandparents suffered a lot more, believe me, and nobody paid them for it.

This is the anon from above that said "would you really want to work there." You make a good point. I was lucky enough to have options. For those who do not have options there's a different calculus.

I honestly can’t believe this is a serious question. I’m at a large NYC firm. Everyone in my practice group (more than 15 people) except me and one other person is Jewish. If anything, I feel excluded when they all talk about going to synagogue together and make a big deal out of taking off for the high holidays (no one has ever thanked me for covering on those days. Nor has anyone ever wished me a happy Easter or offered to cover for Easter or any other Christian non-Christmas holiday. I’ve worked every single Easter since I started here; I honestly think the partners just forget about the existence of Easter as a holiday, unless it overlaps with Passover). If you were trying to get hired in my group, it would be a boost if you listed your Jewish student group. May be different outside of New York though.