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publius365

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Re: So who's got that hiring spreadsheet that Gibson leaked

Post by publius365 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:52 pm

legalpotato wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:33 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:46 pm
. . .

Jews have been labelled as lazy for Shabbat observance since the days of the Roman Empire. Along with a refusal to worship the emperor and the pantheon of Roman gods, this was one of the biggest sources of discrimination against Jews in ancient times.

. . .

Partners and senior associates choosing to remain ignorant of this historical background because “Your job is to be available regardless”, whether intentionally or not, are participating in this long history of antisemitism and will be judged accordingly.

. . .
Pretty harsh words in the bolded. Yes, the culture of biglaw needs to adapt / be more forgiving if retention is going to improve (or just to be more humane). Yes, biglaw is full of terrible human beings who have no regard for others. But don't think it is fair to call someone an unintentional "participant in anti-Semitism" just because they are an indiscriminate asshole.
Yea, we're pretty far off from discussing leaked hiring spreadsheets at this point.

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Re: So who's got that hiring spreadsheet that Gibson leaked

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:49 pm

We're not really far off the original subject. The subject is what secret factors go into recruiting. Shedding light on discrimination against a minority group is well within that, and is very useful information for people in that group. Hopefully, people who were previously unaware of the issue can learn ow to do better. That some people express their frustration in a way that you don't like doesn't change that the issue is real.

Also want to push back against a comment on the previous page. Visibly religious Jewish applicants and associates are not treated like regular applicants sans urm status. They are actively discriminated against.

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Re: So who's got that hiring spreadsheet that Gibson leaked

Post by publius365 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:49 pm
We're not really far off the original subject. The subject is what secret factors go into recruiting. Shedding light on discrimination against a minority group is well within that, and is very useful information for people in that group. Hopefully, people who were previously unaware of the issue can learn ow to do better. That some people express their frustration in a way that you don't like doesn't change that the issue is real.

Also want to push back against a comment on the previous page. Visibly religious Jewish applicants and associates are not treated like regular applicants sans urm status. They are actively discriminated against.
Well, Roman views on Jewish people in the ancient Mediterranean world doesn't seem particularly salient to the biglaw hiring discussion (what I was commenting on). I also think your tone is more than a little unfair, if it is directed at me. I wasn't talking about discrimination in hiring at all (which is very real and a very real problem), which seems to be what you're talking about. I was talking about work expectations in general.

It isn't unreasonable for biglaw partners or associates to generally expect their juniors to be accessible, and I think it is hardly antisemitic (at least, I doubt firms came up with the high billable hour expectations to disadvantage their observant Jewish attorneys). Junior associates offer partners and senior associates their time, not their legal experience. Accessibility is what juniors are offering.
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:46 pm
To emphasise a self evident point, there is no such thing as blowing up an observant Jew’s weekend by forcing them to work on Shabbat. Many Jews in history have chosen death over betrayal of their deeply held beliefs, let alone loss of employment. In such situations, you’re effectively forcing them to quit their jobs for religious reasons.
Not sure what to make of this, to be honest. :?: There certainly should be (and are) reasonable accommodations for religious beliefs in biglaw. But a reasonable accommodation could still lead to a conflict with a sincerely-held religious belief. That's the whole point of the word "reasonable."

If you have a fixed schedule where you cannot work for 1/7th (or some other fraction) of the time (ex. you are Jewish or Seventh Day Adventist or a different group and strictly observe a particular Sabbath), you're essentially playing a game that rewards time spent at the job (billing hours), but giving yourself less time each week. Not saying that Sabbath accommodations are unreasonable (they aren't). Just saying that it will naturally conflict with the entire culture of biglaw (also not saying I support biglaw's onerous expectations, but I'm just being realistic).

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Re: So who's got that hiring spreadsheet that Gibson leaked

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:49 pm

Also want to push back against a comment on the previous page. Visibly religious Jewish applicants and associates are not treated like regular applicants sans urm status. They are actively discriminated against.
Interesting that you feel that way. Maybe I was fortunate - and certainly it is hard to find anything more conclusive than anecdata on this issue - but as someone who wore a kippa throughout OCI (within the last 3 years) and spoke at length about Jewish professional experience and extracurricular activities this was not my experience. I outperformed my grades profile during recruiting and I don’t think my visible religiosity was a factor for or against my candidacy. That said, a lot of my research involved navigating this issue and avoiding firms (including Jewish-founded firms at times) that were said to be less hospitable to shabbat-observant Jews. Generally the outcomes of my frum (observant) peers tracked what you’d expect given their grades etc. It’s possible that due to certain other aspects of my profile/background I was insulated though from an effect that is otherwise present.

There’s a lot of discrimination against observant Jews in the profession but I’m not convinced it’s such a feature at NY biglaw recruitment. I’d be interested to hear more about your experience/that of your peers and connecting in general. Feel free to PM me

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androstan

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Re: So who's got that hiring spreadsheet that Gibson leaked

Post by androstan » Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:01 pm

Also interested in seeing the spreadsheet, with names and other personal identifying information removed of course.

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Re: So who's got that hiring spreadsheet that Gibson leaked

Post by Elston Gunn » Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:14 pm

publius365 wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:45 pm
It isn't unreasonable for biglaw partners or associates to generally expect their juniors to be accessible, and I think it is hardly antisemitic (at least, I doubt firms came up with the high billable hour expectations to disadvantage their observant Jewish attorneys). Junior associates offer partners and senior associates their time, not their legal experience. Accessibility is what juniors are offering.
First of all, it is in fact unreasonable to prohibit associates from carving out any time that is off limits from the reach of quotidian work issues. People spend too much time in Biglaw and get their sense of what is reasonable completely warped. Paying someone $200k+ doesn’t mean you own all their time. And that associate is making many times their salary in value for the partner who thinks they have earned the right to own all the associate’s time.

Even when the associate is junior and not especially skilled, they are offering more than their constant availability. Sure, they need to be diligent, responsive and hardworking to be useful. But they also are offering the future value they will provide after they have learned more and gained experience. This is called training and every high skill industry deals with it.

That goes for all associates, and sure, that’s a comment about the warped culture of Biglaw rather than discrimination. But the *effect* of that culture is to have a discriminatory impact on observant Jews. You seem to be placing a lot of emphasis on the fact that these partners and senior associates may not be antisemitic in their hearts, but that’s really irrelevant. People can participate in and exacerbate a system of discrimination without themselves being bigoted or even conscious of it.

Clearly, you can imagine religious beliefs that are simply incompatible with Biglaw. For example, a refusal to use any modern technology maybe could not reasonably be accommodated. But there’s nothing about being an observant Jew that really, really conflicts with being a good Biglaw associate. As has been pointed out, observant Jews bill just as many hours as anyone else, often at less convenient times.

Okay, they may not be available to respond to Saturday fire drills. But we all know Saturday fire drills are mostly bullshit and the deadlines artificial. And even when they are actually real, okay, someone else covers for that brief period, and the person who was unavailable will cover that person later.

So, yes, it’s Biglaw that’s fucked up and (at least sometimes) observant Jews are just suffering collateral damage. But that isn’t any excuse and doesn’t minimize the effect.

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Re: So who's got that hiring spreadsheet that Gibson leaked

Post by legalpotato » Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:16 pm

Elston Gunn wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:14 pm
publius365 wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:45 pm
It isn't unreasonable for biglaw partners or associates to generally expect their juniors to be accessible, and I think it is hardly antisemitic (at least, I doubt firms came up with the high billable hour expectations to disadvantage their observant Jewish attorneys). Junior associates offer partners and senior associates their time, not their legal experience. Accessibility is what juniors are offering.
First of all, it is in fact unreasonable to prohibit associates from carving out any time that is off limits from the reach of quotidian work issues. People spend too much time in Biglaw and get their sense of what is reasonable completely warped. Paying someone $200k+ doesn’t mean you own all their time. And that associate is making many times their salary in value for the partner who thinks they have earned the right to own all the associate’s time.

Even when the associate is junior and not especially skilled, they are offering more than their constant availability. Sure, they need to be diligent, responsive and hardworking to be useful. But they also are offering the future value they will provide after they have learned more and gained experience. This is called training and every high skill industry deals with it.

That goes for all associates, and sure, that’s a comment about the warped culture of Biglaw rather than discrimination. But the *effect* of that culture is to have a discriminatory impact on observant Jews. You seem to be placing a lot of emphasis on the fact that these partners and senior associates may not be antisemitic in their hearts, but that’s really irrelevant. People can participate in and exacerbate a system of discrimination without themselves being bigoted or even conscious of it.

Clearly, you can imagine religious beliefs that are simply incompatible with Biglaw. For example, a refusal to use any modern technology maybe could not reasonably be accommodated. But there’s nothing about being an observant Jew that really, really conflicts with being a good Biglaw associate. As has been pointed out, observant Jews bill just as many hours as anyone else, often at less convenient times.

Okay, they may not be available to respond to Saturday fire drills. But we all know Saturday fire drills are mostly bullshit and the deadlines artificial. And even when they are actually real, okay, someone else covers for that brief period, and the person who was unavailable will cover that person later.

So, yes, it’s Biglaw that’s fucked up and (at least sometimes) observant Jews are just suffering collateral damage. But that isn’t any excuse and doesn’t minimize the effect.
You aren't really arguing with the person you quoted about anything - you are actually restating much of what that person said. The only difference is on the disparate impact point.

I personally have never heard of anyone saying "I don't want to hire a Jewish person because they might be unavailable on saturdays", but doesn't mean that doesn't happen (in fact, I could see it happening). But the discussion prompted by this spreadsheet, and the discussion here, is whether there is active discrimination against Jewish ppl.

Problem here is that some folks have implied outright said that disparate impact type behavior unequivocally = good ol' antisemitism. No one disagrees (at least I don't think) that Jewish ppl should be able to observe, that biglaw needs to smarten up, that actions that have a disparate impact need to stop, etc. The push back other folks on here are getting is calling ppl antisemitic because they want associates available to work 24/7 - pretty fucked up IMO.

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Re: So who's got that hiring spreadsheet that Gibson leaked

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:21 pm

I don’t understand why everyone is attacking a straw man here. No one is claiming that Orthodox Jews observing sabbath are lazy at all (even though you’d think this is the claim given responses here). I think we can all agree that these associates are just as hard working as any other associate and are just as capable of performing.

That being said, at least with respect to transactional work, one of the most significant drivers of high billable rates and salaries is the ability to be available to a burdensome degree. It’s not very uncommon in transactional groups at top firms to get materials from a client on Friday with a deadline for Monday on an item that will take non stop work through the weekend. It is only rational to expect someone making staffing decisions to prefer someone who is available every day of the week than someone who is available every day of the week other than a specified 25 hour period. We can complain all we want about the brutal nature of big law but that’s a whole other conversation.

Additionally, I think most people understand that sabbath observers are not our partying or having a swell time on Saturday. However, burn out is all too real in big law and having a dedicated period of time every week where you are not expected to be responding (or even looking at) emails and enjoying a calm day with your family would save a lot of careers from burnout.

Ultimately, I think that big law should be more respectful of time but here we are. I believe the main grievance here is that if someone who doesn’t observe a religious day every week instead chose to do the same thing (i.e., log off and spend time with family every week at a specified time that isn’t flexible) this person would be judged harshly—even if they shouldn’t be.

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Re: So who's got that hiring spreadsheet that Gibson leaked

Post by publius365 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:25 pm

Elston Gunn wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:14 pm
publius365 wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:45 pm
It isn't unreasonable for biglaw partners or associates to generally expect their juniors to be accessible, and I think it is hardly antisemitic (at least, I doubt firms came up with the high billable hour expectations to disadvantage their observant Jewish attorneys). Junior associates offer partners and senior associates their time, not their legal experience. Accessibility is what juniors are offering.
That goes for all associates, and sure, that’s a comment about the warped culture of Biglaw rather than discrimination. But the *effect* of that culture is to have a discriminatory impact on observant Jews. You seem to be placing a lot of emphasis on the fact that these partners and senior associates may not be antisemitic in their hearts, but that’s really irrelevant. People can participate in and exacerbate a system of discrimination without themselves being bigoted or even conscious of it.
It's amazing to me that you seem to think you're arguing against me or correcting me on some point. I didn't say anything that disagrees with anything that you've said, and I don't disagree with anything you've said except the bolded statement.

The biglaw powers that be aren't guilty of antisemitism just because of the grueling hours expectation in their profession. This is a silly, cartoonish argument, and deeply insulting to boot. I suppose biglaw is also anti-Seventh Day Adventist, or anti-anyone who observes a religious day of rest. Which, spoiler alert, also includes the various denominations of mainline Christianity, and a fair chunk of gentile biglaw attorneys. There's no reason to say this evinces some specific discrimination against one group, when in reality it is part of the [shitty] deal everyone has. That's just how the job is. Nobody is forcing anyone into the profession. I hope some of the posters in this thread can gain a little perspective.
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:21 pm
I don’t understand why everyone is attacking a straw man here. No one is claiming that Orthodox Jews observing sabbath are lazy at all (even though you’d think this is the claim given responses here). I think we can all agree that these associates are just as hard working as any other associate and are just as capable of performing.

That being said, at least with respect to transactional work, one of the most significant drivers of high billable rates and salaries is the ability to be available to a burdensome degree. It’s not very uncommon in transactional groups at top firms to get materials from a client on Friday with a deadline for Monday on an item that will take non stop work through the weekend. It is only rational to expect someone making staffing decisions to prefer someone who is available every day of the week than someone who is available every day of the week other than a specified 25 hour period. We can complain all we want about the brutal nature of big law but that’s a whole other conversation.
Exactly this.

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Re: So who's got that hiring spreadsheet that Gibson leaked

Post by Elston Gunn » Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:27 pm

publius365 wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:25 pm
Elston Gunn wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:14 pm
publius365 wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:45 pm
It isn't unreasonable for biglaw partners or associates to generally expect their juniors to be accessible, and I think it is hardly antisemitic (at least, I doubt firms came up with the high billable hour expectations to disadvantage their observant Jewish attorneys). Junior associates offer partners and senior associates their time, not their legal experience. Accessibility is what juniors are offering.
That goes for all associates, and sure, that’s a comment about the warped culture of Biglaw rather than discrimination. But the *effect* of that culture is to have a discriminatory impact on observant Jews. You seem to be placing a lot of emphasis on the fact that these partners and senior associates may not be antisemitic in their hearts, but that’s really irrelevant. People can participate in and exacerbate a system of discrimination without themselves being bigoted or even conscious of it.
It's amazing to me that you seem to think you're arguing against me or correcting me on some point. I didn't say anything that disagrees with anything that you've said, and I don't disagree with anything you've said except the bolded statement.

The biglaw powers that be aren't guilty of antisemitism just because of the grueling hours expectation in their profession. This is a silly, cartoonish argument, and deeply insulting to boot. I suppose biglaw is also anti-Seventh Day Adventist, or anti-anyone who observes a religious day of rest. Which, spoiler alert, also includes the various denominations of mainline Christianity, and a fair chunk of gentile biglaw attorneys. There's no reason to say this evinces some specific discrimination against one group, when in reality it is part of the [shitty] deal everyone has. That's just how the job is. Nobody is forcing anyone into the profession. I hope some of the posters in this thread can gain a little perspective.
Yes, I believe Biglaw’s culture has a discriminatory impact on all those groups, as well as women and primary caretakers generally. I’m a non-religious, gentile man who is no longer in Biglaw, and I am well aware no one is forced to do the job.

Like I went out of my way to say, this isn’t a question of intentional discrimination, but a messed up culture that has a disproportionate and unreasonable impact on specific groups. To me, while Biglaw generally is the main problem, this is a specific problem within that that is important and worth caring about.

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Re: So who's got that hiring spreadsheet that Gibson leaked

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 6:44 pm
On a related point, to the Jewish associates here, if someone grew up in a secular household with little to no knowledge of Judaism, but then alluded to being chozer be teshuva in biglaw, what are their chances of getting into trouble if they regularly took off shabbos and Jewish holidays? Asking for a friend.
My brother-in-law was raised Christian, his dad is Jewish (secular not really practicing). He has a Jewish last name and has taken off Jewish holidays but not each and every Jewish holiday (Honestly he may not even know how many there are to take off). He works a ton, happy he gets those days with his young kids who are off from elementary schools.

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Re: So who's got that hiring spreadsheet that Gibson leaked

Post by ExpOriental » Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:21 pm

Waiter, what's this fly doing in my soup?

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Re: So who's got that hiring spreadsheet that Gibson leaked

Post by The Lsat Airbender » Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:39 pm

I've officially given up hope of seeing the spreadsheet. Everyone, please stop bumping this thread. Tyvm

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Re: So who's got that hiring spreadsheet that Gibson leaked

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:25 pm

Have an easy fast everyone! Gmar chsimah tova.

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