So who's got that hiring spreadsheet that Gibson leaked Forum

[Anonymous User]

^^^ Interesting comments re: the pipeline and the "long game" of diversifying law firms. I know that most BL partnerships are still 80-90% white and 70-80% male — but has anyone taken a systematic/aggregate look at new partners elected in the last ~10 years? I assume that is a more diverse cohort, but not sure quite how balanced it would be.

[Anonymous User]

^^^ Interesting comments re: the pipeline and the "long game" of diversifying law firms. I know that most BL partnerships are still 80-90% white and 70-80% male — but has anyone taken a systematic/aggregate look at new partners elected in the last ~10 years? I assume that is a more diverse cohort, but not sure quite how balanced it would be.

Law360 has done surveys on this for many years, the short answer is that no, despite diverse hires at entry-level for a long time, the diversity at partner level remains the same (largely white and male), so diversity at associate has increased, but it doesn't translate to gains at partner level. This is especially true for women, for which there has been more robust data going back a longer time.

[Anonymous User]

I saw some of what I guess was discrimination. Had a Jewish associate who observed every single Saturday and wouldn't do work. People were super pissed off about it and loudly complained about him. It's not clear if he got fired or just left, but if he wasn't fired, I'm sure it wouldn't have been long in coming. I think that sort of religious observance is incompatable with big law. I also think it would have been just as problematic if some Christian associate didn't want to work on Sundays.

The notion that "religious observance is incompatable with big law" would probably be a surprise to the current Chair of S&C or the former Chair of Proskauer, among many other Shabbat-observing biglaw partners at most of the big firms in New York (CSM is a notable exception). My colleagues have always been super-accommodating of scheduling needs relating to my religious observance, and I have always volunteered to cover for my colleagues during the week of Christmas.

Are you saying taking every single Saturday off is the same thing as the week of Christmas? Also, I've never heard of someone getting to just take the week of Christmas off. Christmas eve and Christmas day, sure. Just like Jewish folks get Jewish holidays off. I'd also point out that Jewish folks also almost always get Christmas off as well...

The equivalent of taking every Saturday off is taking every Sunday off and I no of no one who does that. The idea of frequently just being unavailable to your deal team on Saturdays leading up to closing will make you very unpopular. Taking Jewish holidays off wont.

Are we still ranting about how lazy Jews are itt? While also swearing up and down that Jews are never discriminated against?

[Anonymous User]

I saw some of what I guess was discrimination. Had a Jewish associate who observed every single Saturday and wouldn't do work. People were super pissed off about it and loudly complained about him. It's not clear if he got fired or just left, but if he wasn't fired, I'm sure it wouldn't have been long in coming. I think that sort of religious observance is incompatable with big law. I also think it would have been just as problematic if some Christian associate didn't want to work on Sundays.

The notion that "religious observance is incompatable with big law" would probably be a surprise to the current Chair of S&C or the former Chair of Proskauer, among many other Shabbat-observing biglaw partners at most of the big firms in New York (CSM is a notable exception). My colleagues have always been super-accommodating of scheduling needs relating to my religious observance, and I have always volunteered to cover for my colleagues during the week of Christmas.

Are you saying taking every single Saturday off is the same thing as the week of Christmas? Also, I've never heard of someone getting to just take the week of Christmas off. Christmas eve and Christmas day, sure. Just like Jewish folks get Jewish holidays off. I'd also point out that Jewish folks also almost always get Christmas off as well...

The equivalent of taking every Saturday off is taking every Sunday off and I no of no one who does that. The idea of frequently just being unavailable to your deal team on Saturdays leading up to closing will make you very unpopular. Taking Jewish holidays off wont.

Are we still ranting about how lazy Jews are itt? While also swearing up and down that Jews are never discriminated against?

Bit of a straw man here. About 1/3 of the lawyers at my group are Jewish. 1 of them out of like 30-40 who I've worked with refused to work every Saturday. It irritated everyone (Jews and non-Jews alike) amd no one wanted him on their team because of that. I don't see how saying that is incompatable with big law is anti-semetic. I also didn't say Jews don't face discrimination (I don't know, I'm not Jewish). I said the one known act I've seen of discrimination against Jews probably would have also been a problem for any other religion. I also never said he was lazy or that any of the other 40 Jewish people I've worked with are lazy or that Jews in general are lazy. Just that you can't take every Saturday off. That's not a recipe for success in big law.

Sorry, accidental anon.

[LBJ's Hair]

Are you saying taking every single Saturday off is the same thing as the week of Christmas? Also, I've never heard of someone getting to just take the week of Christmas off. Christmas eve and Christmas day, sure. Just like Jewish folks get Jewish holidays off. I'd also point out that Jewish folks also almost always get Christmas off as well...

The equivalent of taking every Saturday off is taking every Sunday off and I no of no one who does that. The idea of frequently just being unavailable to your deal team on Saturdays leading up to closing will make you very unpopular. Taking Jewish holidays off wont.

i'm gonna assume this is coming from a place of ignorance and culture shock, rather than outright anti-Semitism, but: you gotta stop dude.

Shabbat isn't some sort of like, scam that Jewish folks are putting over the gentiles to get out of work. it's an expression of sincerely-held religious belief, and, more cynically, an opportunity for you to do a favor (one very much appreciated) for the observant folks on your team

feels almost absurd to have to say this to someone who works in BigLaw in NY, but: Shabbat doesn't kill deals? there are innumerable successful observant partners at prominent law firms. I can think of many in particular at a firm notorious for its long hours and expertise in M&A.

[Buglaw]

Are you saying taking every single Saturday off is the same thing as the week of Christmas? Also, I've never heard of someone getting to just take the week of Christmas off. Christmas eve and Christmas day, sure. Just like Jewish folks get Jewish holidays off. I'd also point out that Jewish folks also almost always get Christmas off as well...

The equivalent of taking every Saturday off is taking every Sunday off and I no of no one who does that. The idea of frequently just being unavailable to your deal team on Saturdays leading up to closing will make you very unpopular. Taking Jewish holidays off wont.

you gotta to stop looking at Shabbat as some sort of like, scam that Jewish folks are putting over the gentiles, and start appreciating it for what it is: an expression of sincerely-held religious belief, and an opportunity to do a favor (one very much appreciated) for the observant folks on your team

Serious question, is this widespread in big law? I work/worked at a huge law firm and have not seen anyone else doing this. I also asked my friends at the time in big law and they hadn't seen anyone not work Saturdays. Given the push back here, I'm wondering if it is widespread in some areas of the country or at some particular firms.

Edited to add, apparently the firms I have been at are anti-semetic. I just assumed this would not be acceptable at most firms. I'll stop talking and continue to expose my ignorance at this point...

[Anonymous User]

I worked in a London magic circle firm and it was similar experience to Buglaw's; i.e., one orthodox associate was "allowed" to observe shabbos (in the sense that anti discrimination laws would be breached if the firm said otherwise), but then people were complaining behind his back about it and especially in winter when sunset occurs around 4pm. Most New York offices seem to be relatively understanding. I worked in one where a number of Jews were observant and no one kicked up a fuss. I don't know how it works in the rest of the country.

feels almost absurd to have to say this to someone who works in BigLaw in NY, but: Shabbat doesn't kill deals? there are innumerable successful observant partners at prominent law firms. I can think of many in particular at a firm notorious for its long hours and expertise in M&A.

Exactly, but this begs the question. Why are Saturday fire drills then so urgent for everyone else? Maybe a more widely adopted concept of shabbos for the legal profession would be a good thing. Isn't the whole point of shabbos to give people an opportunity to rest from work and focus on family and other 'higher' ideals? Take the example of the secular Jew in this thread who seemingly wishes to present as baal teshuva so as to enjoy shabbos and Jewish holidays. The consensus is there would be consequences for being uncovered as non practising (and I agree). But to me, that just seems odd on a number of levels. From a Jewish perspective alone, surely its a mitzvah to assist a halachically Jewish person (even a non practising one) to keep shabbos? I'm speaking as a secular Jew who has never observed. Also to add another curveball, how do we treat Messianic Jews or Seventh Day Adventists with similar requests? To be clear, I am fully supportive of orthodox Jews keeping shabbos, and agree it is anti-semitic (whether intentional or not) to suggest otherwise.

[Anonymous User]

I'm not engaging with this person anymore, they made it clear where they stand. The bottom line (how this conversation started) is that if you are Jewish and observant, or if anything on your resume suggests that you may be observant, you will be subject to discrimination by ppl like buglaw, who will take one look at your resume and say "not compatible".

[LBJ's Hair]

Serious question, is this widespread in big law? I work/worked at a huge law firm and have not seen anyone else doing this. I also asked my friends at the time in big law and they hadn't seen anyone not work Saturdays. Given the push back here, I'm wondering if it is widespread in some areas of the country or at some particular firms.

Edited to add, apparently the firms I have been at are anti-semetic. I just assumed this would not be acceptable at most firms. I'll stop talking and continue to expose my ignorance at this point...

Maybe you're at a traditionally not-Jewish firm, or you're not in NY (I didn't grow up in NY/NJ and didn't know anyone who observed until college). But yeah, this isn't unusual.

You've got your partners where you know that you're not gonna get comments Saturday because they can't look at the draft. You've got your associate buddy in the office over who's pissed because it's Friday and sundown is coming and he's gotta stop working but he really wants to get his brief out. You got junior teams that are deliberately mixed w/nonobservant folks (by an observant partner) to make sure someone will be able to handle a Saturday emergency

Etc

[Anonymous User]

Are you saying taking every single Saturday off is the same thing as the week of Christmas? Also, I've never heard of someone getting to just take the week of Christmas off. Christmas eve and Christmas day, sure. Just like Jewish folks get Jewish holidays off. I'd also point out that Jewish folks also almost always get Christmas off as well...

The equivalent of taking every Saturday off is taking every Sunday off and I no of no one who does that. The idea of frequently just being unavailable to your deal team on Saturdays leading up to closing will make you very unpopular. Taking Jewish holidays off wont.

i'm gonna assume this is coming from a place of ignorance and culture shock, rather than outright anti-Semitism, but: you gotta stop dude.

Shabbat isn't some sort of like, scam that Jewish folks are putting over the gentiles to get out of work. it's an expression of sincerely-held religious belief, and, more cynically, an opportunity for you to do a favor (one very much appreciated) for the observant folks on your team

feels almost absurd to have to say this to someone who works in BigLaw in NY, but: Shabbat doesn't kill deals? there are innumerable successful observant partners at prominent law firms. I can think of many in particular at a firm notorious for its long hours and expertise in M&A.

It's definitely ignorance. I honestly didn't know this was widespread or accepted places. It wasn't accepted the one time I saw it and assumed no one else would either based on the demands of big law. Obviously I was wrong and the firm was just being anti-semetic. I'm sorry for my ignorance.

[LBJ's Hair]

It's definitely ignorance. I honestly didn't know this was widespread or accepted places. It wasn't accepted the one time I saw it and assumed no one else would either based on the demands of big law. Obviously I was wrong and the firm was just being anti-semetic. I'm sorry for my ignorance.

well, now you know, which is good. honestly it's sorta fascinating to me that you went this long in BigLaw w/o seeing it much, but I guess that speaks to variance in makeup between firms (or geography - can't remember if you said you were in NY)

[Anonymous User]

^^^ Interesting comments re: the pipeline and the "long game" of diversifying law firms. I know that most BL partnerships are still 80-90% white and 70-80% male — but has anyone taken a systematic/aggregate look at new partners elected in the last ~10 years? I assume that is a more diverse cohort, but not sure quite how balanced it would be.

Law360 has done surveys on this for many years, the short answer is that no, despite diverse hires at entry-level for a long time, the diversity at partner level remains the same (largely white and male), so diversity at associate has increased, but it doesn't translate to gains at partner level. This is especially true for women, for which there has been more robust data going back a longer time.

Yes, although we seem to have better explanations for the issue of female partners. The primary hurdle seems to be having children, which at best means 9 months of trying to work a demanding job while going through a bunch of crazy physical changes, then maternity leave, then a couple years of limited sleep. This is assuming you bottle feed, because otherwise add in a year or two of breastfeeding or at least frequent pumping. It also assumes that she has a partner taking on most of the child rearing burdens (or family, or hired help) because otherwise add a ton of time and energy for that. If you have another kid, repeat the cycle.

This is disruptive in any job, but especially so in one that is not only high stress, but also built primarily on excessive working hours and constant availability - the two really don’t mesh well. That’s a challenge for associates, but they are more replaceable and more easily slotted into standard HR policies. For a partner (or senior attempting to make partner) it can be much harder, especially when their shares of the partnership represent such a significant cost to existing partners that must be balanced by the expectation of equal or higher revenue... revenue generated primarily by significant working hours that may be limited by parenting duties.

In addition to women being kept out of partnership in these circumstances, there are also probably a decent number who self-select out of it. Even if they continue to work full time, they may decide that a chiller in-house gig gives better balance, or stay in BigLaw as Counsel or something so the hours are less punishing. They would have been making Cravath scale for a decade at this point so money probably isn’t an issue.

Lastly, consider that 30-35 years old tends to be the period when many women start to feel significant “biological clock” pressure to start having kids (both societally and because of actual medical changes that begin to happen around that time related to fertility and pregnancy risks that their doctors are surely mentioning). This period just so happens to be exactly 10 years after most law students graduated, so lots of talented female BigLaw associates are feeling these pressures at the exact time they are also potentially up for partner. Do you have kids now and risk your partnership chances, or delay a few years and risk not being able to have kids after you make it?

I think that changing gender norms have probably helped a lot, with male partners taking more of the burdens. However, having kids is difficult even for the person who takes minimal caretaking duties, and a female lawyer will need to deal with all the physical requirements of pregnancy regardless of who ends up being the primary caretaker later on.

My hypothesis would be that in the long term, retention of POC and LGBT males through partnership will be fairly strong (on a relative basis anyway), whereas partnership numbers for women regardless of race will remain subject to these limiting factors unless something fundamental changes.

[Buglaw]

It's definitely ignorance. I honestly didn't know this was widespread or accepted places. It wasn't accepted the one time I saw it and assumed no one else would either based on the demands of big law. Obviously I was wrong and the firm was just being anti-semetic. I'm sorry for my ignorance.

well, now you know, which is good. honestly it's sorta fascinating to me that you went this long in BigLaw w/o seeing it much, but I guess that speaks to variance in makeup between firms (or geography - can't remember if you said you were in NY)

I don't have an answer for this. It's like when you are on a deal across from a reputable firm and something you've seen in like every single deal and the person on the other side swears they have never seen it. Sometimes we just have huge blind spots. I'm glad people on here corrected this for me. I feel bad I didn't speak up about it when I saw it.

[Anonymous User]

I saw some of what I guess was discrimination. Had a Jewish associate who observed every single Saturday and wouldn't do work. People were super pissed off about it and loudly complained about him. It's not clear if he got fired or just left, but if he wasn't fired, I'm sure it wouldn't have been long in coming. I think that sort of religious observance is incompatable with big law. I also think it would have been just as problematic if some Christian associate didn't want to work on Sundays.

The notion that "religious observance is incompatable with big law" would probably be a surprise to the current Chair of S&C or the former Chair of Proskauer, among many other Shabbat-observing biglaw partners at most of the big firms in New York (CSM is a notable exception). My colleagues have always been super-accommodating of scheduling needs relating to my religious observance, and I have always volunteered to cover for my colleagues during the week of Christmas.

Are you saying taking every single Saturday off is the same thing as the week of Christmas? Also, I've never heard of someone getting to just take the week of Christmas off. Christmas eve and Christmas day, sure. Just like Jewish folks get Jewish holidays off. I'd also point out that Jewish folks also almost always get Christmas off as well...

The equivalent of taking every Saturday off is taking every Sunday off and I no of no one who does that. The idea of frequently just being unavailable to your deal team on Saturdays leading up to closing will make you very unpopular. Taking Jewish holidays off wont.

It bears mentioning that Shabbat-observant attorneys do not take "every single Saturday off." When busy, it is not uncommon to log on immediately after sundown on Saturday and work through the night and all day Sunday.

For those interested, here is an article on the history of anti-Semitism in the large NYC white shoe firms and the "Jewish" law firms that were founded in response: https://digitalcommons.du.edu/cgi/viewc ... law_facpub

[Anonymous User]

I saw some of what I guess was discrimination. Had a Jewish associate who observed every single Saturday and wouldn't do work. People were super pissed off about it and loudly complained about him. It's not clear if he got fired or just left, but if he wasn't fired, I'm sure it wouldn't have been long in coming. I think that sort of religious observance is incompatable with big law. I also think it would have been just as problematic if some Christian associate didn't want to work on Sundays.

The notion that "religious observance is incompatable with big law" would probably be a surprise to the current Chair of S&C or the former Chair of Proskauer, among many other Shabbat-observing biglaw partners at most of the big firms in New York (CSM is a notable exception). My colleagues have always been super-accommodating of scheduling needs relating to my religious observance, and I have always volunteered to cover for my colleagues during the week of Christmas.

Are you saying taking every single Saturday off is the same thing as the week of Christmas? Also, I've never heard of someone getting to just take the week of Christmas off. Christmas eve and Christmas day, sure. Just like Jewish folks get Jewish holidays off. I'd also point out that Jewish folks also almost always get Christmas off as well...

The equivalent of taking every Saturday off is taking every Sunday off and I no of no one who does that. The idea of frequently just being unavailable to your deal team on Saturdays leading up to closing will make you very unpopular. Taking Jewish holidays off wont.

It bears mentioning that Shabbat-observant attorneys do not take "every single Saturday off." When busy, it is not uncommon to log on immediately after sundown on Saturday and work through the night and all day Sunday.

For those interested, here is an article on the history of anti-Semitism in the large NYC white shoe firms and the "Jewish" law firms that were founded in response: https://digitalcommons.du.edu/cgi/viewc ... law_facpub

100%
In fact, when we let people know we have a holiday, we say "from sundown to sundown", because as soon as we make havdalah it's back to work.

If anyone wonders why so many New York firms have Jewish names, it's because of this history. As late as the 1950s and probably for a long time after it was explicit that non-Jewish firms would not even consider a Jewish applicant, observant or not. (Think of that scene in Mad Men where they say "do we have any Jews?" -- that was the reality if many industries). Were we the only group of people to suffer blatant discrimination? No, of course not. There's no monopoly on suffering. (And of course it's far from the worst thing that Jews faced in the 20th c).

[mardash]

I saw some of what I guess was discrimination. Had a Jewish associate who observed every single Saturday and wouldn't do work. People were super pissed off about it and loudly complained about him. It's not clear if he got fired or just left, but if he wasn't fired, I'm sure it wouldn't have been long in coming. I think that sort of religious observance is incompatable with big law. I also think it would have been just as problematic if some Christian associate didn't want to work on Sundays.

The notion that "religious observance is incompatable with big law" would probably be a surprise to the current Chair of S&C or the former Chair of Proskauer, among many other Shabbat-observing biglaw partners at most of the big firms in New York (CSM is a notable exception). My colleagues have always been super-accommodating of scheduling needs relating to my religious observance, and I have always volunteered to cover for my colleagues during the week of Christmas.

Are you saying taking every single Saturday off is the same thing as the week of Christmas? Also, I've never heard of someone getting to just take the week of Christmas off. Christmas eve and Christmas day, sure. Just like Jewish folks get Jewish holidays off. I'd also point out that Jewish folks also almost always get Christmas off as well...

The equivalent of taking every Saturday off is taking every Sunday off and I no of no one who does that. The idea of frequently just being unavailable to your deal team on Saturdays leading up to closing will make you very unpopular. Taking Jewish holidays off wont.

It bears mentioning that Shabbat-observant attorneys do not take "every single Saturday off." When busy, it is not uncommon to log on immediately after sundown on Saturday and work through the night and all day Sunday.

For those interested, here is an article on the history of anti-Semitism in the large NYC white shoe firms and the "Jewish" law firms that were founded in response: https://digitalcommons.du.edu/cgi/viewc ... law_facpub

100%
In fact, when we let people know we have a holiday, we say "from sundown to sundown", because as soon as we make havdalah it's back to work.

If anyone wonders why so many New York firms have Jewish names, it's because of this history. As late as the 1950s and probably for a long time after it was explicit that non-Jewish firms would not even consider a Jewish applicant, observant or not. (Think of that scene in Mad Men where they say "do we have any Jews?" -- that was the reality if many industries). Were we the only group of people to suffer blatant discrimination? No, of course not. There's no monopoly on suffering. (And of course it's far from the worst thing that Jews faced in the 20th c).

For sure, and people forget it was a big deal JFK was the first Catholic president. And the KKK used to be anti-papist, burning crosses on Catholic lawns along with everyone else they’ve always hated. I think people often think Jews have made the “upgrade” the same way but persistent racism is a bitch.

[Anonymous User]

Current senior associate at a V20. Coming up the ranks over the years, have dealt with multiple midlevel and senior associates who were openly antagonistic about my Sabbath observance.

Vividly remember one such instance where I was given an assignment about an hour before sundown on a Friday. I called the assigning associate, who was well aware that I was Sabbath observant, and promised I would have it to back to him on Saturday night (for context, this was not by any means an emergency assignment that needed to be done on Friday). He paused and then responded angrily, "your personal time constraints are not my problem". I remember being kind of shocked at the bluntness of it all but unfortunately that wasn't the only time I experienced such sentiment (from him and others of similar mind).

I know of many observant friends with similar, and worse, stories. For anyone on here who says this sentiment doesn't exist and that orthodox Jews don't experience forms of subtle and open discrimination at the hiring and associate levels.....I hope you're doing so out of innocent ignorance.

Worth noting that I am regularly among the highest annual billers in the group and work more Saturday nights and Sundays than I care to count. Lots of orthodox friends at other firms share this reality. This whole "unavailable" or "lazy" narrative is not reflective of what I've seen.

And for those who are saying, "but look at how many orthodox Jews are in BigLaw....so obviously they're not discriminated against".....really? C'mon. Run a study on the number of orthodox Jews attending law school annually (especially the T14), compile their grades and then compare their hiring outcomes to those of their non-orthodox peers. Would be rather eye opening. Sure, that orthodox HLS or CLS grad is working at Debevoise or Ropes, but delve a little deeper and you'll see that his/her grades were in the Magna range.....and yet instead of having pick of the litter, most of the V10 wouldn't even grant them a callback. Not implying that this is a great travesty.....these are good outcomes....just saying don't judge the outcomes without having access to the full picture and its contrastable data sets.

[Anonymous User]

deleted

[Anonymous User]

And for those who are saying, "but look at how many orthodox Jews are in BigLaw....so obviously they're not discriminated against".....really? C'mon. Run a study on the number of orthodox Jews attending law school annually (especially the T14), compile their grades and then compare their hiring outcomes to those of their non-orthodox peers. Would be rather eye opening. Sure, that orthodox HLS or CLS grad is working at Debevoise or Ropes, but delve a little deeper and you'll see that his/her grades were in the Magna range.....and yet instead of having pick of the litter, most of the V10 wouldn't even grant them a callback. Not implying that this is a great travesty.....these are good outcomes....just saying don't judge the outcomes without having access to the full picture and its contrastable data sets.

without minimizing your own experiences with discrimination, not sure I agree with this part. knew a LOT of Orthodox folks going to WLRK/S&C/PW/Gibson NY.

This is the natural conclusion of providing a boost to certain groups over others. Asians, whites, and Jews will of course have higher grades than "diverse" peers at practically every firm except those at the tippy-top. Those super selective firms will still hire those groups, but perhaps at lower proportions than they would have had they only looked at grades. You can still be in favor of such a policy, but no reason to ignore the dynamic.

[Anonymous User]

And for those who are saying, "but look at how many orthodox Jews are in BigLaw....so obviously they're not discriminated against".....really? C'mon. Run a study on the number of orthodox Jews attending law school annually (especially the T14), compile their grades and then compare their hiring outcomes to those of their non-orthodox peers. Would be rather eye opening. Sure, that orthodox HLS or CLS grad is working at Debevoise or Ropes, but delve a little deeper and you'll see that his/her grades were in the Magna range.....and yet instead of having pick of the litter, most of the V10 wouldn't even grant them a callback. Not implying that this is a great travesty.....these are good outcomes....just saying don't judge the outcomes without having access to the full picture and its contrastable data sets.

without minimizing your own experiences with discrimination, not sure I agree with this part. knew a LOT of Orthodox folks going to WLRK/S&C/PW/Gibson NY.

This is the natural conclusion of providing a boost to certain groups over others. Asians, whites, and Jews will of course have higher grades than "diverse" peers at practically every firm except those at the tippy-top. Those super selective firms will still hire those groups, but perhaps at lower proportions than they would have had they only looked at grades. You can still be in favor of such a policy, but no reason to ignore the dynamic.

[Anonymous User]

Current senior associate at a V20. Coming up the ranks over the years, have dealt with multiple midlevel and senior associates who were openly antagonistic about my Sabbath observance.

Vividly remember one such instance where I was given an assignment about an hour before sundown on a Friday. I called the assigning associate, who was well aware that I was Sabbath observant, and promised I would have it to back to him on Saturday night (for context, this was not by any means an emergency assignment that needed to be done on Friday). He paused and then responded angrily, "your personal time constraints are not my problem". I remember being kind of shocked at the bluntness of it all but unfortunately that wasn't the only time I experienced such sentiment (from him and others of similar mind).

I know of many observant friends with similar, and worse, stories. For anyone on here who says this sentiment doesn't exist and that orthodox Jews don't experience forms of subtle and open discrimination at the hiring and associate levels.....I hope you're doing so out of innocent ignorance.

Worth noting that I am regularly among the highest annual billers in the group and work more Saturday nights and Sundays than I care to count. Lots of orthodox friends at other firms share this reality. This whole "unavailable" or "lazy" narrative is not reflective of what I've seen.

(V10 NYC perspective) Maybe this is just my cynicism, but I think at the end of the day, firms are just going to be less of a favorable environment for associates who cannot work certain extended periods of time for any reason, whether religious or non-religious. It's sad, but since juniors are essentially fungible, I can understand how the attitude of why work with people who aren't going to be accessible whenever I need them might develop. Oftentimes, the deadlines are arbitrary and bullshit, as you note. But at the same time, the job is to do what your bosses want you to do.

That attitude you discuss may be a separate and distinct from run-of-the-mill antisemitism, though it will certainly affect observant Jews (and others who won't work on certain days of the week for religious reasons). At the end of the day, your ceiling for hours is not insignificantly lower than other associates who don't have a similar religious obligation. Not that that's a reason against observing the sabbath, but from what I've seen, people in New York biglaw don't care about associate religious beliefs or practices, except in a positive way if the affiliation is shared. But they do care about associate availability, and if anything gets in the way of associate availability, it is the lack of availability itself that becomes the problem.

The assigning associate you worked with sounds like a dick, but who knows why he was antagonistic/concerned about an arbitrary deadline. One hypothetical I can think of, though, is to say a junior/senior associate team have an upcoming assignment deadline. The junior associate observes the Jewish sabbath (Friday/Saturday), and the senior associate observes a Christian sabbath (some denominations on Saturday, some on Sunday), and either way, someone's observation is going to conflict with the necessities of work. In that situation I'd expect the junior associate's sabbath to get blown up. If the religious affiliations were flipped, I'd still expect the junior associate's plans to get blown up. That's biglaw.

I hope that since you're now a senior associate, and you annualize high hours, your colleagues respect your time enough to not antagonize you about your Sabbath observance? From my experience, there are some partners/groups that are understanding (esp. if they share the same affiliation), and there are others that have the "work above all else" mantra. Sadly, I think the default in biglaw, along with any other elite professional service, is to more or less expect to be on-call at all times, especially as a more junior associate.

TL;DR: Nobody should work at a firm that they feel doesn't respect their religion. But also, the reality of biglaw is that your superiors will demand top priority in your schedule.

[mardash]

Current senior associate at a V20. Coming up the ranks over the years, have dealt with multiple midlevel and senior associates who were openly antagonistic about my Sabbath observance.

Vividly remember one such instance where I was given an assignment about an hour before sundown on a Friday. I called the assigning associate, who was well aware that I was Sabbath observant, and promised I would have it to back to him on Saturday night (for context, this was not by any means an emergency assignment that needed to be done on Friday). He paused and then responded angrily, "your personal time constraints are not my problem". I remember being kind of shocked at the bluntness of it all but unfortunately that wasn't the only time I experienced such sentiment (from him and others of similar mind).

I know of many observant friends with similar, and worse, stories. For anyone on here who says this sentiment doesn't exist and that orthodox Jews don't experience forms of subtle and open discrimination at the hiring and associate levels.....I hope you're doing so out of innocent ignorance.

Worth noting that I am regularly among the highest annual billers in the group and work more Saturday nights and Sundays than I care to count. Lots of orthodox friends at other firms share this reality. This whole "unavailable" or "lazy" narrative is not reflective of what I've seen.

(V10 NYC perspective) … But at the same time, the job is to do what your bosses want you to do. …

TL;DR: Nobody should work at a firm that they feel doesn't respect their religion. But also, the reality of biglaw is that your superiors will demand top priority in your schedule.

This job has fucked your expectations w/r/t humanity

[Anonymous User]

I think some people are missing context when making their comments.

Jews have been labelled as lazy for Shabbat observance since the days of the Roman Empire. Along with a refusal to worship the emperor and the pantheon of Roman gods, this was one of the biggest sources of discrimination against Jews in ancient times.

Looking more recently, a number of V20 firms have Jewish names precisely because Jews were not hired at the predominant firms of their founder’s era.

Partners and senior associates choosing to remain ignorant of this historical background because “Your job is to be available regardless”, whether intentionally or not, are participating in this long history of antisemitism and will be judged accordingly. Of course, there is nuance (I’m the guy who posted about Messianic Jews and Seventh Day Adventists above, and I’m not observant), but this has to be the basic premise.

To emphasise a self evident point, there is no such thing as blowing up an observant Jew’s weekend by forcing them to work on Shabbat. Many Jews in history have chosen death over betrayal of their deeply held beliefs, let alone loss of employment. In such situations, you’re effectively forcing them to quit their jobs for religious reasons.

I get a number of biglaw partners wouldn’t care, but frankly not only are they lacking in humanity (i.e., something straight out of the movie Philadelphia), but they are also compliance risks to their firms, and should be treated accordingly. Thankfully though, I have seen these types of attitudes decline over my time in biglaw (at least in NYC, not so much in other places unfortunately).

[legalpotato]

I think some people are missing context when making their comments.

Jews have been labelled as lazy for Shabbat observance since the days of the Roman Empire. Along with a refusal to worship the emperor and the pantheon of Roman gods, this was one of the biggest sources of discrimination against Jews in ancient times.

Looking more recently, a number of V20 firms have Jewish names precisely because Jews were not hired at the predominant firms of their founder’s era.

Partners and senior associates choosing to remain ignorant of this historical background because “Your job is to be available regardless”, whether intentionally or not, are participating in this long history of antisemitism and will be judged accordingly. Of course, there is nuance (I’m the guy who posted about Messianic Jews and Seventh Day Adventists above, and I’m not observant), but this has to be the basic premise.

To emphasise a self evident point, there is no such thing as blowing up an observant Jew’s weekend by forcing them to work on Shabbat. Many Jews in history have chosen death over betrayal of their deeply held beliefs, let alone loss of employment. In such situations, you’re effectively forcing them to quit their jobs for religious reasons.

I get a number of biglaw partners wouldn’t care, but frankly not only are they lacking in humanity (i.e., something straight out of the movie Philadelphia), but they are also compliance risks to their firms, and should be treated accordingly. Thankfully though, I have seen these types of attitudes decline over my time in biglaw (at least in NYC, not so much in other places unfortunately).

Pretty harsh words in the bolded. Yes, the culture of biglaw needs to adapt / be more forgiving if retention is going to improve (or just to be more humane). Yes, biglaw is full of terrible human beings who have no regard for others. But don't think it is fair to call someone an unintentional "participant in anti-Semitism" just because they are an indiscriminate asshole.

[Elston Gunn]

How is that harsh? If anything, the poster went out of their way to be precise and to avoid saying “discriminating against someone for practicing their religion is antisemitic.” If your point is that the partner may just be an asshole and not have any particular hate in their heart for Jews…who cares? And in any case the poster didn’t suggest otherwise.