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jacky9

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Re: Class of 2014 - Started in Biglaw Still in Biglaw - AMA

Post by jacky9 » Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:28 pm

attorney589753 wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 2:46 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:46 pm
Would you recommend lit to someone who's genuinely indifferent between lit and corp?
If you prefer lit, do lit. If indifferent, do corporate. David Lat wrote about this recently and I thought his take was solid (basically better exit options/optionality/career prospects in corp.)
Can you link to this article/post?

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Re: Class of 2014 - Started in Biglaw Still in Biglaw - AMA

Post by nls336 » Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:08 am

objctnyrhnr wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 2:43 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:46 pm
Would you recommend lit to someone who's genuinely indifferent between lit and corp?
Don’t mean to be rude but the notion of being indifferent to these massively different types of practice is pretty mind blowing to me.

With that said, if you aren’t excited about lit you probably won’t excel at lit. By contrast, nobody is really that excited about transactional practices so your lack of enthusiasm probably won’t stand out.
The above is definitely fair. But, beyond just being "excited" about something which is sort of nebulous, my advice would be to get granular on the positions you're looking at.

I would assume that OP in this comment is probably incoming to big law, so still a student. If that's the case OP, I would say specify "corp" a bit for yourself. You might like PE work more than Capital Markets or M&A more than funds or regulatory work.

Additionally, do you just mean transactional or do you specifically mean gen. corporate? If you're open to transactional and like the combination of corporate and litigation restructuring is always possible. It's a pretty good mix of both worlds and a lot of the shops are in team-building/hiring business phases.

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Re: Class of 2014 - Started in Biglaw Still in Biglaw - AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:02 am

nls336 wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:08 am
objctnyrhnr wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 2:43 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:46 pm
Would you recommend lit to someone who's genuinely indifferent between lit and corp?
Don’t mean to be rude but the notion of being indifferent to these massively different types of practice is pretty mind blowing to me.

With that said, if you aren’t excited about lit you probably won’t excel at lit. By contrast, nobody is really that excited about transactional practices so your lack of enthusiasm probably won’t stand out.
The above is definitely fair. But, beyond just being "excited" about something which is sort of nebulous, my advice would be to get granular on the positions you're looking at.

I would assume that OP in this comment is probably incoming to big law, so still a student. If that's the case OP, I would say specify "corp" a bit for yourself. You might like PE work more than Capital Markets or M&A more than funds or regulatory work.

Additionally, do you just mean transactional or do you specifically mean gen. corporate? If you're open to transactional and like the combination of corporate and litigation restructuring is always possible. It's a pretty good mix of both worlds and a lot of the shops are in team-building/hiring business phases.
OP who asked the question here. Thank you both! I am an incoming associate. I felt genuinely indifferent because the total amount of exposure I had was a shortened virtual program.

I know I don't like transactional (cap markets in particular), but I'm concerned about the prospect of lit in general because everyone seems to suggest that lit doesn't and won't generate enough revenue.

attorney589753

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Re: Class of 2014 - Started in Biglaw Still in Biglaw - AMA

Post by attorney589753 » Fri Sep 03, 2021 11:40 am

jacky9 wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:28 pm
attorney589753 wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 2:46 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:46 pm
Would you recommend lit to someone who's genuinely indifferent between lit and corp?
If you prefer lit, do lit. If indifferent, do corporate. David Lat wrote about this recently and I thought his take was solid (basically better exit options/optionality/career prospects in corp.)
Can you link to this article/post?
I mean that is just an exceptional level of laziness, but OK: https://abovethelaw.com/2020/02/mammas- ... itigators/

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Re: Class of 2014 - Started in Biglaw Still in Biglaw - AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Sep 04, 2021 9:56 pm

[/quote]

I think you get out of it what you put in. If you coast by, looking for easy assignments that let you bill a lot of hours without really challenging you or putting you in a position of taking risk, then you're going to be leaving by your third or fourth year. By that time, there won't be enough of those assignments to keep you busy, and you'll be sick to death of them anyway. I definitely feel some tiredness/burnout, but esp at this stage the work really is intellectually stimulating, I have a little more control over my workload and schedule, and the pay is pretty amazing. I was working from home over 50% of the time pre-COVID, now it's been essentially 100%. How many people would love to do interesting work from their home for almost $30k/month? I feel like I could be one of those spam/BS ads saying you can make XYZ dollars a month from home on the internet.

My biggest gripe is that it's so hard to develop my own clients, and I've found I really do like interacting directly with clients. And by interacting directly with clients, I mean doing more than hounding after them for documents and information in response to discovery requests. That's another aspect of biglaw lit I think. My understanding is that corp/trans people interact a lot more with the firm's clients. And this is all another reason I keep pondering the idea of opening my own practice at about half the billing rate.
[/quote]


What's the take-home pay on that $30k?

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Re: Class of 2014 - Started in Biglaw Still in Biglaw - AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Sep 05, 2021 9:27 pm

What do you think of the conventional wisdom (at least on here) that smaller is better, boutiques > biglaw, etc. for litigators? Would you do biglaw again if you had the option to go somewhere where you could build your own practice more easily, or is the corp-subsidized money and lack of salary compression worth it to you?

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androstan

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Re: Class of 2014 - Started in Biglaw Still in Biglaw - AMA

Post by androstan » Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:11 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Sep 05, 2021 9:27 pm
What do you think of the conventional wisdom (at least on here) that smaller is better, boutiques > biglaw, etc. for litigators? Would you do biglaw again if you had the option to go somewhere where you could build your own practice more easily, or is the corp-subsidized money and lack of salary compression worth it to you?
I agree with the conventional wisdom on here. I would probably join a strong boutique litigation practice if I could redo everything. Fortunately, biglaw has basically worked out for me, but I definitely didn't really understand or appreciate the career decision I was making by going that route as compared to going the more more "high end" boutique practice route.

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androstan

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Re: Class of 2014 - Started in Biglaw Still in Biglaw - AMA

Post by androstan » Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:40 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Sep 04, 2021 9:56 pm
I think you get out of it what you put in. If you coast by, looking for easy assignments that let you bill a lot of hours without really challenging you or putting you in a position of taking risk, then you're going to be leaving by your third or fourth year. By that time, there won't be enough of those assignments to keep you busy, and you'll be sick to death of them anyway. I definitely feel some tiredness/burnout, but esp at this stage the work really is intellectually stimulating, I have a little more control over my workload and schedule, and the pay is pretty amazing. I was working from home over 50% of the time pre-COVID, now it's been essentially 100%. How many people would love to do interesting work from their home for almost $30k/month? I feel like I could be one of those spam/BS ads saying you can make XYZ dollars a month from home on the internet.

My biggest gripe is that it's so hard to develop my own clients, and I've found I really do like interacting directly with clients. And by interacting directly with clients, I mean doing more than hounding after them for documents and information in response to discovery requests. That's another aspect of biglaw lit I think. My understanding is that corp/trans people interact a lot more with the firm's clients. And this is all another reason I keep pondering the idea of opening my own practice at about half the billing rate.
[/quote]


What's the take-home pay on that $30k?
[/quote]

Once 401k is maxed out and OASDI caps out, about $20k.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre

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Re: Class of 2014 - Started in Biglaw Still in Biglaw - AMA

Post by Monochromatic Oeuvre » Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:36 pm

androstan wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:07 pm
If you coast by, looking for easy assignments that let you bill a lot of hours without really challenging you or putting you in a position of taking risk, then you're going to be leaving by your third or fourth year.
Kiddos, you can absolutely do this for years if you want. There are seniors, counsels and even partners who make a career off a high volume of super-easy shit, or even low volumes of things that are specialized but ultimately pretty easy.

The job does not *have* to only be about money, but it's totally fine if that's all it is.

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androstan

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Re: Class of 2014 - Started in Biglaw Still in Biglaw - AMA

Post by androstan » Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:22 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:36 pm
androstan wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:07 pm
If you coast by, looking for easy assignments that let you bill a lot of hours without really challenging you or putting you in a position of taking risk, then you're going to be leaving by your third or fourth year.
Kiddos, you can absolutely do this for years if you want. There are seniors, counsels and even partners who make a career off a high volume of super-easy shit, or even low volumes of things that are specialized but ultimately pretty easy.

The job does not *have* to only be about money, but it's totally fine if that's all it is.
Fair enough, I agree. The context of my comment was someone asking what keeps me around and if the job ever gets fulfilling "beyond just the paycheck." My answer is that it can become fulfilling beyond just the paycheck.

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Re: Class of 2014 - Started in Biglaw Still in Biglaw - AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Sep 17, 2021 11:26 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:29 am
androstan wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 10:59 am

As far as how BL has changed, I can comment a bit on litigation at least. I can't say anything valuable about non-litigation practice. Basically, the structure of litigation groups has almost completely flattened. Attorneys from 1st year through >8 are involved in doc review, depo prep, brief writing, etc. Everyone's input is welcomed and valued. I've seen even older partners move in this direction since I started. It feels good to be valued and the environment/culture has improved. The downside is that the pressure on younger attorneys feel is higher, but that is probably an inevitable tradeoff when choosing to start your career at a big firm and simultaneously wanting substantive, high-level experience. The days of having junior associates bill ungodly hours for routine doc review are just gone, which should be no surprise since they were already waning when I started. The days of having junior associates do a bunch of research of questionable value are mostly gone too. My impression is that corp/trans practices have experienced this shift a bit, but not nearly to the extent as litigation practices. It's also probably less relevant at the tip top litigation practices in the country.

HTH.
I'm in the same class year/practice group. This is spot on
I'm at one of the "tip top" litigation practices (V10) and this isn't the case at all for us. There's still very much a hierarchy of work. A senior associate would not be caught dead doing doc review; junior attorneys aren't writing substantive briefs, etc. Maybe our practice is more resilient to change than most because we're at the top of the market but I haven't seen our operations change significantly over the past x years even as we continue to make more and more money (as a firm -- I sense litigation is basically flat to low growth which is fine from the firm's perspective given worse outcomes at other firms).

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androstan

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Re: Class of 2014 - Started in Biglaw Still in Biglaw - AMA

Post by androstan » Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:59 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 11:26 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:29 am
androstan wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 10:59 am

As far as how BL has changed, I can comment a bit on litigation at least. I can't say anything valuable about non-litigation practice. Basically, the structure of litigation groups has almost completely flattened. Attorneys from 1st year through >8 are involved in doc review, depo prep, brief writing, etc. Everyone's input is welcomed and valued. I've seen even older partners move in this direction since I started. It feels good to be valued and the environment/culture has improved. The downside is that the pressure on younger attorneys feel is higher, but that is probably an inevitable tradeoff when choosing to start your career at a big firm and simultaneously wanting substantive, high-level experience. The days of having junior associates bill ungodly hours for routine doc review are just gone, which should be no surprise since they were already waning when I started. The days of having junior associates do a bunch of research of questionable value are mostly gone too. My impression is that corp/trans practices have experienced this shift a bit, but not nearly to the extent as litigation practices. It's also probably less relevant at the tip top litigation practices in the country.

HTH.
I'm in the same class year/practice group. This is spot on
I'm at one of the "tip top" litigation practices (V10) and this isn't the case at all for us. There's still very much a hierarchy of work. A senior associate would not be caught dead doing doc review; junior attorneys aren't writing substantive briefs, etc. Maybe our practice is more resilient to change than most because we're at the top of the market but I haven't seen our operations change significantly over the past x years even as we continue to make more and more money (as a firm -- I sense litigation is basically flat to low growth which is fine from the firm's perspective given worse outcomes at other firms).
Thanks for this perspective. My understanding is that, in general, the extent to which a particular firm has changed since the recession is correlated to where it's situated in the market. The very tip-top firms are mostly operating as they were before. Probably if I hadn't switched from my summer firm and "compromised" a bit through 3L OCI, I would be singing a different tune.

In any event, I just got an offer from one of those elite lit boutiques. Total base comp is about $30k higher than market, and bonuses have been consistently above market. Otoh I don't need more money nor was I really looking for more money. But it seems like there's a real chance to become partner because the firm has elevated an associate to partner almost every year for the past 5 years (there's only a handful of associates). Also sounds like there's more opportunity for non-partners to take a more live, active role instead of just grinding behind the scenes.

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Re: Class of 2014 - Started in Biglaw Still in Biglaw - AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:45 am

How many hours have you generally billed per year over the course of your career? Do you think that has made a different for career longevity?

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