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Is "secondary market" a catch-all for all markets excluding NYC, DC, Chicago, LA, SF, Dallas, and Houston, or is it also a finite set of markets, separate from tertiary markets (if such term exists)? If "secondary market" is a finite set, which cities fall into this category?

It’s imperfect but I think secondary market means the next-largest tier under those that you mentioned. Think Philly, Charlotte, Atlanta, Miami, Seattle. I’m sure many use the term more broadly to encompass roughly every city with a major professional sports team. But I think secondary is most useful as a term for a non-primary market that still has a meaningful biglaw presence.

Houston and Dallas aren't secondary legal markets? I assumed it was NYC, CHI, DC, SF, and LA were the only real "primary markets."

I've always thought of it as cities where (a) there are biglaw firms or at least something close to it, but (b) those firms largely don't pay NY market, even if there are a couple exceptions that do.

ProbablyWaitListed wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 30, 2021 12:29 pm

Houston and Dallas aren't secondary legal markets? I assumed it was NYC, CHI, DC, SF, and LA were the only real "primary markets."

I don't think it's fully defined term. It used to basically just mean NYC as far as biglaw is concerned. Houston may actually have more biglaw slots than SF and CHI these days, so it probably makes sense to include it as a primary market.

Personally, would generally consider a "primary" market one where all of the major players match NYC market salaries. A secondary market would be a large city (over 1 million population) where most players are under market (except maybe a single market leader or a few small satellite ofices)- cities like Nashville or St. Louis. A tertiary market would be a smaller city where there are no real native biglaw firms and maybe only a small outpost or two of biglaw firms- cities like Buffalo or Memphis.

But the terms basically just exist so people can talk about biglaw markets without having to name the specific city. People may not want to name the city because even secondary markets can be relatively insular ones where most people know each other.

ProbablyWaitListed wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 30, 2021 12:29 pm

Houston and Dallas aren't secondary legal markets? I assumed it was NYC, CHI, DC, SF, and LA were the only real "primary markets."

Why do you think Houston and Dallas are secondary? Houston is the fourth largest city in the country and the energy capital of the world. And DFW is a larger metroplex than Houston. After NYC, Houston and Dallas are 2 and 3 respectively in terms of having the most Fortune 500 HQs. Local firms in both cities pay market.

I can see Austin being "secondary" still (at least for now). But firms pay market there, too.

Primary = biglaw is here and it basically all pays market. NY, DC, Chicago, Houston, Dallas, SF, LA, maybe Boston?

Secondary = biglaw is here and you’ve heard of the firms but it’s mostly off market. Atlanta, Philadelphia, Miami, Charlotte. I’m sure there are more.

Idk if most people would broaden “secondary” to include the Kansas City/Phoenix/Milwaukee tier, but it’s also weird because people will use tertiary to mean Des Moines and Jacksonville, and there are real differences between like a Nashville and a Madison and they probably don’t belong in the same tier for meaningful discussions.

Does not answer the question, but may help.

Data may be a few years old, but the 2015 study was supposedly updated in early 2021.

Number of attorney jobs per city:

New York City--55,480
Wash DC--41,460

Los Angeles--24,350
Chicago--23,280

Boston--13,610
Philadelphia--13,450
Houston--12,670
Atlanta--12,110
San Francisco--10,260
Dallas--10,080

Denver--9,020
Miami--8,930
Minneapolis--8,900

Phoenix--7,660
Newark--7,450
Seattle--7,440
Nassau, NY--7,250
Tampa--7,180
Baltimore--6,450
San Diego--6,130
St. Louis--5,910
Austin, Texas--5,370
Sacramento--5,140
Pittsburgh--5,090
San Jose--5,050
Orlando--4,820
Kansas City--4,610
Portland, Oregon--4,540
West Palm Beach--4,460
Cleveland--4,400
Charlotte, NC--4,300
Oakland--4,170
Las Vegas--4,020

CanadianWolf wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 30, 2021 3:01 pm

Does not answer the question, but may help.

Data may be a few years old, but the 2015 study was supposedly updated in early 2021.

Number of attorney jobs per city:

New York City--55,480
Wash DC--41,460

Los Angeles--24,350
Chicago--23,280

Boston--13,610
Philadelphia--13,450
Houston--12,670
Atlanta--12,110
San Francisco--10,260
Dallas--10,080

Denver--9,020
Miami--8,930
Minneapolis--8,900

Phoenix--7,660
Newark--7,450
Seattle--7,440
Nassau, NY--7,250
Tampa--7,180
Baltimore--6,450
San Diego--6,130
St. Louis--5,910
Austin, Texas--5,370
Sacramento--5,140
Pittsburgh--5,090
San Jose--5,050
Orlando--4,820
Kansas City--4,610
Portland, Oregon--4,540
West Palm Beach--4,460
Cleveland--4,400
Charlotte, NC--4,300
Oakland--4,170
Las Vegas--4,020

People saying Boston “may” be a primary market have no idea what they’re talking about. Three mega firms are HQ’d here (Ropes, Goodwin and Wilmer). Choate, Mintz, Goulston, Fish and Foley Hoag are also market paying firms HQ’d here. Proskauer, Cooley and Kirkland have ~100 person offices here. Latham, Skadden, MoFo, Orrick, Gunderson and a number of other market-paying firms have outposts as well.

It has a large tech and life sciences focus, along with PE, which is what attracts a lot of large firms.

Anon because I’m in a small practice area and narrowing it to Boston will probably out me.

Maybe I'm out of touch, but I've definitely always thought exclusively of NY as a primary market in the States. And NY and London as the primary markets in the English speaking world.

I would have thought of Chicago/LA/SF/DC/Boston as "secondary markets," Houston/Dallas/Philly/Denver as "tertiary markets" and everything else as small markets.

NoLongerALurker wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:08 pm

Maybe I'm out of touch, but I've definitely always thought exclusively of NY as a primary market in the States. And NY and London as the primary markets in the English speaking world.

I'm with you. I've always thought "secondary market" = everything that's outside of NYC.

NoLongerALurker wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:08 pm

Maybe I'm out of touch, but I've definitely always thought exclusively of NY as a primary market in the States. And NY and London as the primary markets in the English speaking world.

I would have thought of Chicago/LA/SF/DC/Boston as "secondary markets," Houston/Dallas/Philly/Denver as "tertiary markets" and everything else as small markets.

I thought so too

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:33 pm

NoLongerALurker wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:08 pm

Maybe I'm out of touch, but I've definitely always thought exclusively of NY as a primary market in the States. And NY and London as the primary markets in the English speaking world.

I would have thought of Chicago/LA/SF/DC/Boston as "secondary markets," Houston/Dallas/Philly/Denver as "tertiary markets" and everything else as small markets.

I thought so too

I've always thought about Houston, Dallas and Chicago as being primary markets US side, with NY being secondary, DC, Boston, SF, LA as tertiary, and everything else as bolt-on. But, I usually look at things from practical experience and overall quality of market and life, rather than prestige and hours worked. I guess YMMV, idk.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:49 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:33 pm

NoLongerALurker wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:08 pm

Maybe I'm out of touch, but I've definitely always thought exclusively of NY as a primary market in the States. And NY and London as the primary markets in the English speaking world.

I would have thought of Chicago/LA/SF/DC/Boston as "secondary markets," Houston/Dallas/Philly/Denver as "tertiary markets" and everything else as small markets.

I thought so too

I've always thought about Houston, Dallas and Chicago as being primary markets US side, with NY being secondary, DC, Boston, SF, LA as tertiary, and everything else as bolt-on. But, I usually look at things from practical experience and overall quality of market and life, rather than prestige and hours worked. I guess YMMV, idk.

Oh look, bait

ExpOriental wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:52 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:49 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:33 pm

NoLongerALurker wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:08 pm

Maybe I'm out of touch, but I've definitely always thought exclusively of NY as a primary market in the States. And NY and London as the primary markets in the English speaking world.

I would have thought of Chicago/LA/SF/DC/Boston as "secondary markets," Houston/Dallas/Philly/Denver as "tertiary markets" and everything else as small markets.

I thought so too

I've always thought about Houston, Dallas and Chicago as being primary markets US side, with NY being secondary, DC, Boston, SF, LA as tertiary, and everything else as bolt-on. But, I usually look at things from practical experience and overall quality of market and life, rather than prestige and hours worked. I guess YMMV, idk.

Oh look, bait

Not another Texas is amazing thread…

NoLongerALurker wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:08 pm

Maybe I'm out of touch, but I've definitely always thought exclusively of NY as a primary market in the States. And NY and London as the primary markets in the English speaking world.

I would have thought of Chicago/LA/SF/DC/Boston as "secondary markets," Houston/Dallas/Philly/Denver as "tertiary markets" and everything else as small markets.

I'm in Chicago and I thought this too, so no offence taken (by me at least). But I would consider Texas markets as equivalent to CA, no worse than Boston for sure.

I always thought Primary was concretely NYC, DC, LA, Chicago, SF, Dallas, Houston, Boston, and Philly, and then Secondary was more nebulous, with "big" cities like Atlanta, Miami, Charlotte, Denver, and Minneapolis as representative of of the term, but more expansive.

I think of secondary as any market outside of of NYC, DC, Chicago & LA - the blue blood legal markets. With salaries converging now that's pretty dumb, but at a certain time (stealing CanadianWolf's post) T1 was going to pay you "Cravath" and T2 it would just depend.

New York City--55,480
Wash DC--41,460
Los Angeles--24,350
Chicago--23,280

Boston--13,610
Philadelphia--13,450
Houston--12,670
Atlanta--12,110
San Francisco--10,260
Dallas--10,080

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:39 pm

Primary = biglaw is here and it basically all pays market. NY, DC, Chicago, Houston, Dallas, SF, LA, maybe Boston?

Secondary = biglaw is here and you’ve heard of the firms but it’s mostly off market. Atlanta, Philadelphia, Miami, Charlotte. I’m sure there are more.

Idk if most people would broaden “secondary” to include the Kansas City/Phoenix/Milwaukee tier, but it’s also weird because people will use tertiary to mean Des Moines and Jacksonville, and there are real differences between like a Nashville and a Madison and they probably don’t belong in the same tier for meaningful discussions.

This is what I think as well. “Primary” to me means basically every biglaw firm in the city pays the Cravath/Milbank scale. “Secondary” means cities like Atlanta or Miami where that’s not the case.

Yeah I agree with widespread Cravath-scale pay as being the best rule of thumb. If the market is big enough to sustain like 10+ firms that pay NYC market, it’s probably “primary.” You could also look at how many top national firms have a presence there (on the theory that the big dogs investing heavily in that market is a better indicator of their value than any of us randos could guess).

To use Houston as an example, there is a long list of firms that pay Cravath, and 5 of the V10 have offices there (10 of the V20; 26 of the V50). My guess would be that if you started running other cities through the same metrics you’d see a pretty clear dividing line in groups of cities.

Big Red wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:22 am

I think of secondary as any market outside of of NYC, DC, Chicago & LA - the blue blood legal markets. With salaries converging now that's pretty dumb, but at a certain time (stealing CanadianWolf's post) T1 was going to pay you "Cravath" and T2 it would just depend.

New York City--55,480
Wash DC--41,460
Los Angeles--24,350
Chicago--23,280

Boston--13,610
Philadelphia--13,450
Houston--12,670
Atlanta--12,110
San Francisco--10,260
Dallas--10,080

The Houston numbers seem way off to me. There is no way there are only 12k practicing attorneys here. Anyhow, I don't think this list necessarily reflects biglaw jobs (especially market-paying biglaw jobs).

nealric wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:31 pm

Big Red wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:22 am

I think of secondary as any market outside of of NYC, DC, Chicago & LA - the blue blood legal markets. With salaries converging now that's pretty dumb, but at a certain time (stealing CanadianWolf's post) T1 was going to pay you "Cravath" and T2 it would just depend.

New York City--55,480
Wash DC--41,460
Los Angeles--24,350
Chicago--23,280

Boston--13,610
Philadelphia--13,450
Houston--12,670
Atlanta--12,110
San Francisco--10,260
Dallas--10,080

The Houston numbers seem way off to me. There is no way there are only 12k practicing attorneys here. Anyhow, I don't think this list necessarily reflects biglaw jobs (especially market-paying biglaw jobs).

Yeah there are probably tons of rando lawyers of all stripes that you’d need to separate out from the data. Also places like DC are probably significantly boosted by government attorneys (not that that means it’s not a primary market of course, just that DC BigLaw is notoriously small numbers-wise so the data here doesn’t line up).

nealric wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:31 pm

Big Red wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:22 am

I think of secondary as any market outside of of NYC, DC, Chicago & LA - the blue blood legal markets. With salaries converging now that's pretty dumb, but at a certain time (stealing CanadianWolf's post) T1 was going to pay you "Cravath" and T2 it would just depend.

New York City--55,480
Wash DC--41,460
Los Angeles--24,350
Chicago--23,280

Boston--13,610
Philadelphia--13,450
Houston--12,670
Atlanta--12,110
San Francisco--10,260
Dallas--10,080

The Houston numbers seem way off to me. There is no way there are only 12k practicing attorneys here. Anyhow, I don't think this list necessarily reflects biglaw jobs (especially market-paying biglaw jobs).

Even just VE, Kirkland, Latham, and Baker Botts gives you like ~800 attorneys.

It seems weird to me to use the Cravath scale as a basis for determining primacy without adjusting for state income tax (or lack thereof) and CoL.

aegor wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 31, 2021 2:39 pm

It seems weird to me to use the Cravath scale as a basis for determining primacy without adjusting for state income tax (or lack thereof) and CoL.

That’s fair, but the existence of markets (like TX) that pay Cravath despite no taxes and low COL cuts against scaling expectations for other cities. I guess this gets at a more fundamental question of whether the measure is “would a lawyer take a job there because they make the equivalent of Cravath after adjusting for taxes/COL” vs. “is this a market where firms feel compelled to pay Cravath regardless of taxes/COL because it’s so valuable/competitive?”