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Both NY - Interests are likely litigation. I don't have a strong grasp of either culture but would prefer an environment that is not hostile or toxic.

Simpson is more corporate-focused and Quinn is solely litigation. The organization of the firms is very different. Do you want more structure (Simpson) or free market/unstructured (Quinn)?

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:52 am

Both NY - Interests are likely litigation. I don't have a strong grasp of either culture but would prefer an environment that is not hostile or toxic.

I don't know anything about Simpson, but that would seem to eliminate Quinn...

I think as others alluded to, this is a pretty unfortunate dilemma.

STB is predominantly corporate — i.e., I wouldn’t bank on being a litigator, if you expressed flexibility in your interviews — and a classic white-shoe environment. Quinn is, well, not not hostile or toxic. Their hostility, albeit towards opposing counsel, is literally part of their advertising material. Internally, it’s reputed to be an intense free-market eat-what-you kill environment. But they are obviously great litigators.

You’ll work very hard at both. What matters to you more? Being a litigator (to the exclusion of ever trying corporate work)? Or being in a ‘nice’ work environment? (As an aside, I think it’s a mistake to conflate ‘white shoe professionalism’ with ‘good work environment,’ but between these two very different firms I think STB has the edge.)

Anyway, all that said, they are both great firms. It’s just a tough choice that will involve some introspection on your part.

FWIW it's certainly possible (and many people do this) to only do lit over the summer and end up in the lit group at STB. I've heard great things about the culture of the group.

A few points about Quinn, since I was also considering it:

(1) No dress code and general focus on the work rather than ancillary issues
(2) $105k federal clerkship bonus (compared to $50k at most other firms)
(3) 2100 hours requirement, the highest explicit requirement I am aware of
(4) Very aggressive tactics that can be good for clients but sometimes piss off opposing counsel and even judges (this is admittedly secondhand info)
(5) No frills office environment compared to some other NY firms

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 13, 2021 2:40 pm

I think as others alluded to, this is a pretty unfortunate dilemma.

fwiw I feel like an "unfortunate dilemma" for OP would be choosing between like, Kasowitz and Cellino & Barnes, not STB and Quinn lmao

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 13, 2021 3:02 pm

FWIW it's certainly possible (and many people do this) to only do lit over the summer and end up in the lit group at STB. I've heard great things about the culture of the group.

Would love to hear more about the lit group and its culture and getting into their group if you can share.

I have personal experience of both firms (maybe the only person who will respond to you with that). Quinn is downright toxic and awful. I would never recommend anyone work there, no matter how hard-nosed they are, for the sheer petty infighting between partners, how strongly the firm is tied up around John Quinn himself (he alone determines every partner’s salary and has to approve every single firm expense personally), the perpetual insulting cheapness (you as an associate have to pay for your own court filings and admissions, e.g., and then fight tooth and nail, not always successfully, to get reimbursed), the nasty personalities it attracts and the constantly screaming, insulting and, worst, belittling associates are expected to receive from partners and even other associates, the completely mercenary nature of the partnership (nearly all rainmakers made their career somewhere else first), the total lack of any associate support system and constant frathouse culture when it comes to open racism, sexism and homophobia, which, unlike most firms, Quinn doesn’t even pretend to care about (they literally don’t even have affinity groups or any diversity team).

So your options are really STB or nowhere. Go to STB, it’s a good, decent firm.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 14, 2021 9:42 am

constant frathouse culture when it comes to open racism, sexism and homophobia, which, unlike most firms, Quinn doesn’t even pretend to care about (they literally don’t even have affinity groups or any diversity team).

Could you elaborate on this? I did raise my eyebrows when researching Quinn given their lack of affinity groups, but there is a lot of daylight between that and frathouse culture and open discrimination/bigotry.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 16, 2021 9:34 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 14, 2021 9:42 am

constant frathouse culture when it comes to open racism, sexism and homophobia, which, unlike most firms, Quinn doesn’t even pretend to care about (they literally don’t even have affinity groups or any diversity team).

Could you elaborate on this? I did raise my eyebrows when researching Quinn given their lack of affinity groups, but there is a lot of daylight between that and frathouse culture and open discrimination/bigotry.

A good example was a firmwide email chain (Quinn loves firmwide email chains, which often dive into the salacious or insulting) last year where a bunch of straight male partners were accusing each other of potentially being on Grindr (which was involved in the litigation at issue that started the chain). But also lots of untoward advances towards women junior associates, John Quinn personally cracking jokes on firmwide emails about BLM, etc. Rotten, toxic firm from the top. It wouldn’t be so bad if John Quinn didn’t set the tone and control everything about daily life at the firm, I think.

If you don't want to so somewhere toxic, or at least minimize the risk that the place you go will be toxic, don't go to Quinn.

In a non-Zoom/pandemic era, it's actually pretty easy to pick up on the toxicity from their firm open houses/recruiting events on campus and even how they treat one another (the jokes, bragging, war stories, etc.).

Joachim2017 wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:44 am

In a non-Zoom/pandemic era, it's actually pretty easy to pick up on the toxicity from their firm open houses/recruiting events on campus and even how they treat one another (the jokes, bragging, war stories, etc.).

Wouldn't war stories etc. suggest collaboration/staying at the firm long-term? Or is the content indicative of a problem?

Avoid Quinn at all costs

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 16, 2021 12:04 pm

Joachim2017 wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:44 am

In a non-Zoom/pandemic era, it's actually pretty easy to pick up on the toxicity from their firm open houses/recruiting events on campus and even how they treat one another (the jokes, bragging, war stories, etc.).

Wouldn't war stories etc. suggest collaboration/staying at the firm long-term? Or is the content indicative of a problem?

The way in which the stories are told by the Quinn partners -- what they choose to highlight, brag about, think is what makes their firm attractive -- is what indicates the problem. At least, in my experience and that of others I know.

Joachim2017 wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:44 am

If you don't want to so somewhere toxic, or at least minimize the risk that the place you go will be toxic, don't go to Quinn.

In a non-Zoom/pandemic era, it's actually pretty easy to pick up on the toxicity from their firm open houses/recruiting events on campus and even how they treat one another (the jokes, bragging, war stories, etc.).

Agreed. At clerk recruiting events, Quinn made Gibson look like a collegial, warm environment by comparison. And this was them doing their best to sell themselves.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:10 pm

Joachim2017 wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:44 am

If you don't want to so somewhere toxic, or at least minimize the risk that the place you go will be toxic, don't go to Quinn.

In a non-Zoom/pandemic era, it's actually pretty easy to pick up on the toxicity from their firm open houses/recruiting events on campus and even how they treat one another (the jokes, bragging, war stories, etc.).

Agreed. At clerk recruiting events, Quinn made Gibson look like a collegial, warm environment by comparison. And this was them doing their best to sell themselves.

...is Gibson known to be particularly bad? Haven't heard this before.

As a counterpoint: had a pretty great summer at Quinn NY, spent about half my time in the office and got to know a fair amount of associates and partners. They definitely work hard, and the hours requirement is more demanding than their peers, but I didn’t see anything resembling the above in the (admittedly many) firm wide emails and office culture. To the contrary, I found it to be a fairly liberal place. Generally, folks seemed down to earth and focused on doing great work.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 16, 2021 12:42 pm

Avoid Quinn at all costs

+1. Go to Simpson. It’s a nice firm and you can always clerk and look again for something more lit focused. Don’t go to QE. It’s not worth it.

As for people promoting or justifying Quinn because they spent a summer there, lol.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 24, 2021 11:10 am

+1. Go to Simpson. It’s a nice firm and you can always clerk and look again for something more lit focused. Don’t go to QE. It’s not worth it.

As for people promoting or justifying Quinn because they spent a summer there, lol.

This seems like bad advice given that it relies on someone just casually snagging a clerkship and pivoting to lit.

QE is strong in lit, obviously. It has high billables. It has no dress code. Pro bono is not an emphasis. Those things may be good or bad depending on your own disposition and priorities. But TBH a lot of the people I know who are going to Quinn are friendly, sharp, and driven.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 24, 2021 11:36 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 24, 2021 11:10 am

+1. Go to Simpson. It’s a nice firm and you can always clerk and look again for something more lit focused. Don’t go to QE. It’s not worth it.

As for people promoting or justifying Quinn because they spent a summer there, lol.

This seems like bad advice given that it relies on someone just casually snagging a clerkship and pivoting to lit.

QE is strong in lit, obviously. It has high billables. It has no dress code. Pro bono is not an emphasis. Those things may be good or bad depending on your own disposition and priorities. But TBH a lot of the people I know who are going to Quinn are friendly, sharp, and driven.

Yes the people I knew who went to Quinn were like that too. And they had experiences similar to the nightmares described above and quickly left. It's just not a nice place to be from all accounts of the many people I know who have worked there.

I don't know where these threads come from. I worked at Quinn for 5 years and had a decent time of it. It's big law, some partners are better than others -- some great and some terrible -- and I like a lot of the people I met while working there. Didn't see overt racism or sexism in my time there. John Quinn, specifically, is a pretty nice and relatively chill guy, per my experiences with him on the hikes.

I was tempted not to post this since I don't think I really owe the firm anything or want to spend my time defending it online, but the descriptions in this thread are definitely a little much. Feel free to ask any questions.

I went to QE's reception in person in the Before Times and man, all I could think of was RUN AWAY. They were not shy about their personality types. Of course, if you've met a bunch of them and think you'll fit in, I guess there's a place for everyone!

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:52 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 16, 2021 9:34 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 14, 2021 9:42 am

constant frathouse culture when it comes to open racism, sexism and homophobia, which, unlike most firms, Quinn doesn’t even pretend to care about (they literally don’t even have affinity groups or any diversity team).

Could you elaborate on this? I did raise my eyebrows when researching Quinn given their lack of affinity groups, but there is a lot of daylight between that and frathouse culture and open discrimination/bigotry.

A good example was a firmwide email chain (Quinn loves firmwide email chains, which often dive into the salacious or insulting) last year where a bunch of straight male partners were accusing each other of potentially being on Grindr (which was involved in the litigation at issue that started the chain). But also lots of untoward advances towards women junior associates, John Quinn personally cracking jokes on firmwide emails about BLM, etc. Rotten, toxic firm from the top. It wouldn’t be so bad if John Quinn didn’t set the tone and control everything about daily life at the firm, I think.

I've worked at Quinn for several years (and received many firmwide emails) and never saw this alleged email chain. Any email chains that are interesting or incendiary end up on above the law within a few days.

Quinn caters to rainmakers. If you are a solid attorney bringing in business and want to make more money without the hassle of starting your own firm, Quinn will provide you the resources you need to make that happen. One of the main resources it offers is a stable of smart, hardworking associates who can do the work those rainmakers bring in. As an associate, you are part of the product being advertised.

This model leads to a pretty variable experience that depends a ton on the partners you end up working with and two associates in the same office can have polar opposite experiences. I personally enjoyed the people I worked with, but watched some of my classmates get eaten alive. The primary benefit to associates is that the QE name carries weight on a resume and, at the end of the day, you get a lot of early experience that would be hard to get at other firms.

It's true that there are no affinity/diversity groups, but to be fair, there aren't really any groups or committees at all. This is probably part of the overall mercenary business model. Why would the firm give associates or any other group a say in the way the firm operates, when all that matters is what the rainmakers want?