Am I not talented enough to make partner? Forum

[Anonymous User]

The title basically explains it. I've had good grades my entire life, went to a T14, now I'm a corporate mid-level associate at a V10 firm. The partners and the "favored" associates just seem to understand issues faster/better than I can. They also seem to have limitless energy and the ability to work harder and stay focused longer than me. I've always had decent reviews and I feel like I'm socially normal and not weird, but the longer I stay in this job, the more I feel like I'm not going to make partner. I fear I just don't have "it".

[Anonymous User]

The title basically explains it. I've had good grades my entire life, went to a T14, now I'm a corporate mid-level associate at a V10 firm. The partners and the "favored" associates just seem to understand issues faster/better than I can. They also seem to have limitless energy and the ability to work harder and stay focused longer than me. I've always had decent reviews and I feel like I'm socially normal and not weird, but the longer I stay in this job, the more I feel like I'm not going to make partner. I fear I just don't have "it".

So, fellow mid-level in similar position. I'm also not "cut-out" to make partner, but here's where my short coming is. I don't put in the extra-curricular effort. Basically, when I have free time, I spend it with my friends and family. The "gifted" associates I know in their free time are reading know-how, studying up trends in the market, reviewing previous precedents/deals of other associates to try and learn from that. Basically they're putting in effort, on top of the ridiculous amount of effort we're putting in, to learn more and build on their skills. I'm not willing/cannot push myself into that next gear.

Are you doing the extra-curriculars? Are you identifying your weaknesses and working on improving your skills own time? If so, then maybe there's something else at play. But if not, that's probably the first step.

[Anonymous User]

The title basically explains it. I've had good grades my entire life, went to a T14, now I'm a corporate mid-level associate at a V10 firm. The partners and the "favored" associates just seem to understand issues faster/better than I can. They also seem to have limitless energy and the ability to work harder and stay focused longer than me. I've always had decent reviews and I feel like I'm socially normal and not weird, but the longer I stay in this job, the more I feel like I'm not going to make partner. I fear I just don't have "it".

So, fellow mid-level in similar position. I'm also not "cut-out" to make partner, but here's where my short coming is. I don't put in the extra-curricular effort. Basically, when I have free time, I spend it with my friends and family. The "gifted" associates I know in their free time are reading know-how, studying up trends in the market, reviewing previous precedents/deals of other associates to try and learn from that. Basically they're putting in effort, on top of the ridiculous amount of effort we're putting in, to learn more and build on their skills. I'm not willing/cannot push myself into that next gear.

Are you doing the extra-curriculars? Are you identifying your weaknesses and working on improving your skills own time? If so, then maybe there's something else at play. But if not, that's probably the first step.

This is really insightful and not something I fully appreciated until a bit of time into my stint at current V10. Its likely not that you aren't 'smart enough', but if you truly aren't making this job your #1 priority and building your life entirely around learning more about your practice and client development, you won't succeed at the most grueling firms.

I was in a more senior associate's office and he remarked that so and so partner had written an article that covered my question a bit back and that I should read it for more info. That article was written over a decade ago by a partner who published a lot; that senior was reading all of his publications in their non-billable time to be more knowledgeable and succeed at the firm. Those are the kind of people who in V10 environments make partner assuming they have the other requisite skills and qualifications. You have to ask yourself if stuff like that is worth it to you for a shot at partnership.

[Anonymous User]

Disagree with the posts that it’s just people putting in extra non-billable work or reading some partners publications (unless you work with Glenn West or something). Maybe people are putting in extra work behind the scenes that I don’t see, but I really don’t think so. Generally things that make people good at this job are:

1. They like it - a lot easier to endure biglaw when you generally like the work and people.
2. Long motors - it just takes a lot of long, often tedious, hours to get things right. Reading disclosures that 6th time before they go to the senior, actually carefully reading diligence contracts, reviewing an indemnity provision for the nth time to make sure it’s drafted correctly - it just takes a lot of tedious work some days.
3. Ability to connect with clients - and no one practice fits all. Dealing with Cooley’s clients is different than S&C’s clients. I’m not talking about being able to entertain them through 9 holes, but being able to give advice in a way that is helpful to them.
4. Just innate ability - some people just get this shit better.

The fact is in any incoming class year, 10% or so probably make partner. And that’s full of kids that got 170s on their LSATs, went to Ivey undergrads, went to T14 schools and did well. It’s just a funnel system and really smart, talented people sometimes aren’t going to become partners.

[Anonymous User]

Disagree with the posts that it’s just people putting in extra non-billable work or reading some partners publications (unless you work with Glenn West or something). Maybe people are putting in extra work behind the scenes that I don’t see, but I really don’t think so. Generally things that make people good at this job are:

1. They like it - a lot easier to endure biglaw when you generally like the work and people.
2. Long motors - it just takes a lot of long, often tedious, hours to get things right. Reading disclosures that 6th time before they go to the senior, actually carefully reading diligence contracts, reviewing an indemnity provision for the nth time to make sure it’s drafted correctly - it just takes a lot of tedious work some days.
3. Ability to connect with clients - and no one practice fits all. Dealing with Cooley’s clients is different than S&C’s clients. I’m not talking about being able to entertain them through 9 holes, but being able to give advice in a way that is helpful to them.
4. Just innate ability - some people just get this shit better.

The fact is in any incoming class year, 10% or so probably make partner. And that’s full of kids that got 170s on their LSATs, went to Ivey undergrads, went to T14 schools and did well. It’s just a funnel system and really smart, talented people sometimes aren’t going to become partners.

OP who posted about doing extra-curriculars. Partially agree/partially disagree:

1. Agree. But liking your job also makes you more interested in the subject matter and market trends. So, for me, reading up on my practice area during my free time is a chore and torture. For someone who enjoys it, they'll read about work on the beach on vacation. It doesn't feel like a chore bc they enjoy it, but they're still putting in work/homework that I won't.

2. Partially agree. You need to ability to work long hours, but I think if you've made it to the point where you're a midlevel at a V10 - you have the ability. There's no way you can make it to 5th year and not be accustomed to working grueling hours. This isn't the thing that's setting people apart from good associate vs. partner material.

3. Partially Agree. There's different paths to partnership. I've seen partners who are known as difficult and their own client believes they're difficult too. But, that client might just be so freaking good, or have some expertise that's very unique setting them apart. Or, they might just be a extremely strong arming and the client wants someone that's gonna strongarm for them. However, I agree that if you can't connect with clients, or answer their questions in a meaningful way, it's probably not going to work out for you.

4. Disagree. Innate ability? Cmon man, you think people are born with an ability to get a PSA better than someone else? This shit isn't that hard - we all have worked on things in college/law school that were significantly more complicated/intellectually stimulating than this work. We're pencil pushers papering deals. It's way more about interest, drive and passion for the work than it is any god given contract drafting ability.

[Anonymous User]

This may be practice group dependent, so don’t want this to be read as disagreeing with the above. But for an M&A lawyer in the PE space:

- do good work (doesn’t need to be the best work ever - just consistently good)

- be available - ALL the time (doesn’t mean sitting in the office waiting, but never let things sit in your inbox for longer than 10 minutes during working hours and 1 hr after working hours). As a first - third year on an active deal, intentionally wake up a few times a night to respond to emails (a 2 am “will do” buys a ton of goodwill and required very little sacrifice)

- always have a positive attitude - word your emails with a positive outlook, little things like that

- most importantly, find more than one mentor who relies on you. Choose a mentor that wants to promote talented young lawyers up the ranks. Like someone you talk to multiple times a day on the phone (personal, work, whatever they want to talk about). That mentor relationship will develop into friendship and even more trust and they will invest in giving you opportunities. Once the friendship develops, never take advantage of that by failing to put work first though. This is the single most important thing and is necessary 100% of time. The advice above allows you to creat this relationship. Without someone to let you in the inside, it’s very tough

[Jchance]

Sounds like an effort--or really a lack thereof--problem rather than a talent problem. You just don't want it enough, whereas others seem hungrier for it.

[Best]

One thing I think people don't talk about, either because they don't realize it or don't want to accept it, is that it matters which partners you work for. Not all partners are equal, and not all partners have the same voice in promotion meetings/discussions, bonus discussions, etc.

Some partners will go to bat for you, advocate for you, and even dispute any of your shortcomings (well, his billables might have been low this year but he really worked on getting experience in BD and did quality work for me, etc). Other partners sit there silently, either because they're intimidated by other partners or just don't have a loud voice.

[Anonymous User]

Sounds like an effort--or really a lack thereof--problem rather than a talent problem. You just don't want it enough, whereas others seem hungrier for it.

agreed.
making partner often does not equal talent.

[hdr]

1. Agree. But liking your job also makes you more interested in the subject matter and market trends. So, for me, reading up on my practice area during my free time is a chore and torture. For someone who enjoys it, they'll read about work on the beach on vacation. It doesn't feel like a chore bc they enjoy it, but they're still putting in work/homework that I won't.

I've definitely found this to be true. Most partners I've worked with are very good about using their "free" time, like waiting at the doctor's office or the DMV, to keep up with legal developments, industry trends, etc. via their smartphones. Whereas I'm more likely to be reading about video games. It's really helpful to be interested in your practice area; if reading Law360 feels like torture to you, it's harder to keep up with everything.

That said, I've also met successful partners who are less attuned to issues in their practice areas.

[Buglaw]

This may be practice group dependent, so don’t want this to be read as disagreeing with the above. But for an M&A lawyer in the PE space:


- be available - ALL the time (doesn’t mean sitting in the office waiting, but never let things sit in your inbox for longer than 10 minutes during working hours and 1 hr after working hours). As a first - third year on an active deal, intentionally wake up a few times a night to respond to emails (a 2 am “will do” buys a ton of goodwill and required very little sacrifice)

This seems psychotic to me. I've never worked with anyone who has done this. I totally agree if you did all the things you have listed you would make partner. Probably equity partner in like 6 or 7 years. But this sounds awful to me and I have literally never seen anyone set an alarm to check their emails to say will do unless its like the night of closing or you are waiting for the printer, etc.

[Anonymous User]

Lol at intentionally waking up throughout the night to respond to emails and reading up and the latest M&A trends during free time.

[mardash]

Lol at intentionally waking up throughout the night to respond to emails and reading up and the latest M&A trends during free time.

Well obviously you aren’t talented enough to make partner.

[Anonymous User]

- be available - ALL the time (doesn’t mean sitting in the office waiting, but never let things sit in your inbox for longer than 10 minutes during working hours and 1 hr after working hours). As a first - third year on an active deal, intentionally wake up a few times a night to respond to emails (a 2 am “will do” buys a ton of goodwill and required very little sacrifice)

written like a 20th year income partner

[Ultramar vistas]

This may be practice group dependent, so don’t want this to be read as disagreeing with the above. But for an M&A lawyer in the PE space:


- be available - ALL the time (doesn’t mean sitting in the office waiting, but never let things sit in your inbox for longer than 10 minutes during working hours and 1 hr after working hours). As a first - third year on an active deal, intentionally wake up a few times a night to respond to emails (a 2 am “will do” buys a ton of goodwill and required very little sacrifice)

This seems psychotic to me. I've never worked with anyone who has done this. I totally agree if you did all the things you have listed you would make partner. Probably equity partner in like 6 or 7 years. But this sounds awful to me and I have literally never seen anyone set an alarm to check their emails to say will do unless its like the night of closing or you are waiting for the printer, etc.

Co-sign that this is batshit crazy. I am in M&A, have only ever had positive reviews and - to divulge a secret - my iphone is automatically on do-not-disturb from midnight to 7:30am. I only turn that off for signings and closings that are getting crazy.

[Anonymous User]

A little off topic but still worth asking, have you ever asked yourself whether it’s worth making partner? Getting there is difficult but I’d say even after getting there it isn’t any cakewalk.

It’s been eye opening since I’m friends with a newly minted partner at a V50, but you’re still politicking and other BS even after becoming a junior partner. In addition, maybe it varies but the majority of the partners at my current firm are working pretty brutal hours too, so nothing to envy.

I’ve come to really be at peace with getting off the rat race once I’ve accumulated a decent sum and just living a chill and humble life with my family. I’m fine with it but I’m sure some of y’all aren’t.

[Anonymous User]

This may be practice group dependent, so don’t want this to be read as disagreeing with the above. But for an M&A lawyer in the PE space:


- be available - ALL the time (doesn’t mean sitting in the office waiting, but never let things sit in your inbox for longer than 10 minutes during working hours and 1 hr after working hours). As a first - third year on an active deal, intentionally wake up a few times a night to respond to emails (a 2 am “will do” buys a ton of goodwill and required very little sacrifice)

This seems psychotic to me. I've never worked with anyone who has done this. I totally agree if you did all the things you have listed you would make partner. Probably equity partner in like 6 or 7 years. But this sounds awful to me and I have literally never seen anyone set an alarm to check their emails to say will do unless its like the night of closing or you are waiting for the printer, etc.

OP who made the point about reading up on their practice area - yeah, I don't know anyone who wakes up multiple times in the middle of the night to answer an email. Sounds like the quickest way to burn out.

There's definitely a group of people that come in gungho and burn out very quickly because they do shit like this. Work extremely hard, make almost every waking moment you have about work/advancement, but also get sleep, exercise, relaxation in the small windows you can.

This sounds like an oxymoron because for most people work and relaxation don't go hand in hand (certainly doesn't for me). For some partners I know, they're good at blending the two - they can go to their kids softball game and respond to client emails on their phone during it or they can enjoy movie night with the family while hand-marking a PSA/Credit Agmt or reading law journals on their phone. If that sounds shitty and terrible to you (it does to me), then that's the difference maker I'm talking about. They're always working - even when they don't think they're working. When my partners go on vacation - even when I have the deal completely in hand, they still check in once a day to make sure everything is okay. They can't stop thinking about it, and that really makes the difference. But, you shouldn't force yourself to wake up at all hours - no one is expecting a response to an unexpected 3am email, that's for tomorrow.

[Anonymous User]

A little off topic but still worth asking, have you ever asked yourself whether it’s worth making partner? Getting there is difficult but I’d say even after getting there it isn’t any cakewalk.

It’s been eye opening since I’m friends with a newly minted partner at a V50, but you’re still politicking and other BS even after becoming a junior partner. In addition, maybe it varies but the majority of the partners at my current firm are working pretty brutal hours too, so nothing to envy.

I’ve come to really be at peace with getting off the rat race once I’ve accumulated a decent sum and just living a chill and humble life with my family. I’m fine with it but I’m sure some of y’all aren’t.

It's 100% not worth it, unless you really love the work and want to do it all the time.

The problem is if you're doing it for the money, there's no "senior status" where you can coast and get paid. Junior partners work an absurd amount. "Rainmakers" work a ton in other ways with pitches/client management etc. I know that every firm has those dinosaurs that don't know how to use a computer and mostly there to hide from their families, but (a) you only get there really, really late in your career where you should be retired anyway, (b) no one really knows how much those guys make - we just assume a lot cuz they were rainmakers back in the day and (c) I really don't believe that position is going to exist for our generation (it's an old-timey thing like pensions).

[Anonymous User]

I know a few v100 partners. They all earnestly really like the job. That's not to say they don't complain about shit - they hate the same things we do (busted weekends, obnoxious clients, etc) but fundamentally, they enjoy the work. I'm not saying that money doesn't matter, but for many of them, it's far about respect / relative compensation than the absolute dollar figure. (Scott Barshay often talks about how he could be a banker but chooses not to - and he's one of the most comp-sensitive guys out there!)

It's also worth noting they all find some aspect of the work really interesting - so they can do that and get recharged rather than drained. The guys who are reading Business Lawyer or whatever before they go to sleep aren't doing that because they think they have to, they're doing it because they actually want to.

[hdr]

A little off topic but still worth asking, have you ever asked yourself whether it’s worth making partner? Getting there is difficult but I’d say even after getting there it isn’t any cakewalk.

The job certainly doesn't get any easier after you make partner. You still need to find enough work to meet your hours (assuming you're not bringing in matters yourself), and you still have to deal with crazy demands, surprise work on nights and weekends, interrupted vacations, etc.

OTOH making partner or counsel has gotten easier as firms have moved away from the up or out model, and once you get there, you'll probably make ~$500k/year or more. If you're a senior associate and find the work tolerable, staying on for a few more years may seem appealing.

[Jchance]

I know a few v100 partners. They all earnestly really like the job. . . . fundamentally, they enjoy the work.
. . .
It's also worth noting they all find some aspect of the work really interesting - so they can do that and get recharged rather than drained. The guys who are reading Business Lawyer or whatever before they go to sleep aren't doing that because they think they have to, they're doing it because they actually want to.

This reminds me of introverts (who'd get drained by social events) vs. extroverts (who'd get energized/recharged by social events). It's obviously that being a partner is not for you, unless you get energized by the work. I've met a few superstar senior associates who appear to really like the work, often staying past midnight/3am at the office to get the work done. Those are ones I'd bet money on that they'd make partners in a few years.

[Mr. Kister]

I know a few v100 partners. They all earnestly really like the job. . . . fundamentally, they enjoy the work.
. . .
It's also worth noting they all find some aspect of the work really interesting - so they can do that and get recharged rather than drained. The guys who are reading Business Lawyer or whatever before they go to sleep aren't doing that because they think they have to, they're doing it because they actually want to.

This reminds me of introverts (who'd get drained by social events) vs. extroverts (who'd get energized/recharged by social events). It's obviously that being a partner is not for you, unless you get energized by the work. I've met a few superstar senior associates who appear to really like the work, often staying past midnight/3am at the office to get the work done. Those are ones I'd bet money on that they'd make partners in a few years.

This. I've come to realize that at least two senior associates I've worked for in M&A get the same type of energy and excitement from constantly doing deal work as I used to from gaming for the better part of a day. Sure, they get tired. But you'll push through exhaustion to do something you truly enjoy. It's not just work for them.

[Anonymous User]

I know a few v100 partners. They all earnestly really like the job. . . . fundamentally, they enjoy the work.
. . .
It's also worth noting they all find some aspect of the work really interesting - so they can do that and get recharged rather than drained. The guys who are reading Business Lawyer or whatever before they go to sleep aren't doing that because they think they have to, they're doing it because they actually want to.

This reminds me of introverts (who'd get drained by social events) vs. extroverts (who'd get energized/recharged by social events). It's obviously that being a partner is not for you, unless you get energized by the work. I've met a few superstar senior associates who appear to really like the work, often staying past midnight/3am at the office to get the work done. Those are ones I'd bet money on that they'd make partners in a few years.

This. I've come to realize that at least two senior associates I've worked for in M&A get the same type of energy and excitement from constantly doing deal work as I used to from gaming for the better part of a day. Sure, they get tired. But you'll push through exhaustion to do something you truly enjoy. It's not just work for them.

Yeah...well, I mean don't forget PEDs. No one talks about it, but nobody rocks Barry Bonds numbers without a bit of help.

[legalpotato]

To address the OP, I think there is, in addition to being a grinder and doing good work, a level of charisma that is somewhat innate that really helps - if you have it great, but many ppl are great students/smart, but do not have it and it is something that may ultimately separate you from those who can make share partner (I fall into the category of no charisma).

Also, there is an element of luck involved so that even if you are doing everything right, you still may not get it just because the stars didn't align for you.

4. Disagree. Innate ability? Cmon man, you think people are born with an ability to get a PSA better than someone else? This shit isn't that hard - we all have worked on things in college/law school that were significantly more complicated/intellectually stimulating than this work. We're pencil pushers papering deals. It's way more about interest, drive and passion for the work than it is any god given contract drafting ability.

Yeah, this stuff isn't rocket science, but there is of course innate ability, just like w/ literally everything else in the world. Not just changing a few words in your form to match the term sheet. But being able to see how all of the moving parts connect, spot issues, problem solve. This is all stuff that can be learned, but you can definitely see juniors who "get it" and those who don't.

- be available - ALL the time (doesn’t mean sitting in the office waiting, but never let things sit in your inbox for longer than 10 minutes during working hours and 1 hr after working hours). As a first - third year on an active deal, intentionally wake up a few times a night to respond to emails (a 2 am “will do” buys a ton of goodwill and required very little sacrifice)

lol don't wake up in the night. A 3:30am "will do" does nothing for you.

[attorney589753]

To address the OP, I think there is, in addition to being a grinder and doing good work, a level of charisma that is somewhat innate that really helps - if you have it great, but many ppl are great students/smart, but do not have it and it is something that may ultimately separate you from those who can make share partner (I fall into the category of no charisma).

Also, there is an element of luck involved so that even if you are doing everything right, you still may not get it just because the stars didn't align for you.

Yeah, I agree with this and I think some of the posts that said it comes down to desire/effort only. First, while pedantic, I think effort, at this level, is in some ways a talent or a skill itself. Could I stay up until 2am on a closing when I absolutely had to? Yes, thank you adrenaline. But there were other associates at my firm who seemed able to do it regularly, almost like robots, and sleep was just an optional thing to them? This is speculative, but I always thought some of those folks are on the far end of the distribution in terms of endurance and willpower.

Although funny enough, not all those people end up slated for making partner. At least at my old firm, the skills around connecting with clients, speaking business language, charisma as indicated above, and ability to quickly solve problems would earn you a lot of respect with the partners. "Is this the sort of person I can hand a client/deal over to and it runs on autopilot, without supervision?" was just as important as "Will this person stay late at night to get the work done?"

One thing I thought was somewhat unfortunate was midlevel associates who had no chance at partner but got strung along. From the firms' perspective, especially in this market, you're probably still profitable. But if you aren't one of the "favorite associates" then you probably aren't making partner. OP, I think it's actually really good and healthy that you seem self-aware enough to read between the lines. Some people get decent reviews and assume that means they can just use that to get to the top. I'm guessing your firm probably isn't forcing you out, but they also probably aren't grooming you to step up. If you really want to be a partner, you could probably do it at a lesser firm, or you could stick around in an associate/counsel role, or you could look for other options. Ideally you could stress test this suspicion with some mentors that you really trust, but I'm guessing it's 90% chance you instinct is right.