Buy-Side Desk Lawyer Taking Q’s Forum

[ByeSideJazz]

Things are slow so figured I’d field any questions folks have.

[ggqkhwaofnpoyqpmis]

Thanks very much for doing this OP. What type of buy side firms are you at? What are the hours like? And finally what’s the comp like?

[soft blue]

Thanks for doing this!

1.) What is your job relative to outside counsel? Are you a first look guy? A supervisor? A translator?
2.) What, if any, is your path for advancement in the buy-side firm? My sense was that most desk lawyers remain that with maybe a 2-3% annual raise, because you essentially cannot become an investor if you enter as a desk lawyer + you lack the training, skills, etc to flip. Similarly, my sense was that desk lawyers aren't trying to be GC or whatever.
3.) How do the people on the desk treat you? Are they nice? Are you a second-class citizen?

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for doing this.

1. Can you generally describe your firm (ie middle market PE, large PE, hedge fund, etc.)?
2. What was your background before going in-house (practice group and seniority)?
3. Compensation?
4. Hours?
5. Do you find the work generally interesting?
6. Advancement opportunities/long-term outlook?

[ByeSideJazz]

Thanks very much for doing this OP. What type of buy side firms are you at? What are the hours like? And finally what’s the comp like?

No problem. At a credit shop. Like many others, started with a more guns-blazing hedge fund platform but has grown to cover a broader spectrum of strategies. Hours are infinitely better than BigLaw. Starts a little earlier in the morning but activity for the non-junior analysts cools off at 5-6-ish depending on how busy things are. Your current comp is the starting point for comp negotiations (in addition to any other offers you may be fielding at the time). My total comp here when I started as a click more than I would have made that year at the firm - thereafter it generally depends on fund and individual performance (it’s much more weighted to the bonus than the base). I’ve never made less than the prior year - although mileage will vary depending on the shop ofc.

Thanks for doing this!

1.) What is your job relative to outside counsel? Are you a first look guy? A supervisor? A translator?
2.) What, if any, is your path for advancement in the buy-side firm? My sense was that most desk lawyers remain that with maybe a 2-3% annual raise, because you essentially cannot become an investor if you enter as a desk lawyer + you lack the training, skills, etc to flip. Similarly, my sense was that desk lawyers aren't trying to be GC or whatever.
3.) How do the people on the desk treat you? Are they nice? Are you a second-class citizen?

1. The GC’s team handles the relationship for any outside firms that work on our “house” legal issues. My team manages the deal lawyers. The traders/analysts generally defer to my team when selecting outside counsel unless there’s a specific reason we need a certain lawyer. During the deal, we’re the main point of contact with the law firm. We review their work and make the legal decisions.

2. Advancement outlook will vary from shop to shop but it largely depends on how the firm is organized. At some larger managers, there’s a separate L&C team of desk lawyers (not GC but still corporate legal) with their own promotion ladder - so you can make your career there and just wait to be promoted to MD or director in L&C. Some of the smaller/mid-sized places will seat you directly with the investment team and then it’s totally dependent on (1) which strategy you work on, because some strategies require more legal horsepower than others, and (2) your performance, skills, and who likes you. But yes, it’s possible to pivot to a more investment-oriented role.

3. They’re very nice and definitely not treated like I’m second-class. I just do something different. All of these funds are looking for any edge they can and I bring a different and unique set of skills to the table.

Thanks for doing this.

1. Can you generally describe your firm (ie middle market PE, large PE, hedge fund, etc.)?
2. What was your background before going in-house (practice group and seniority)?
3. Compensation?
4. Hours?
5. Do you find the work generally interesting?
6. Advancement opportunities/long-term outlook?

Covered some of this already but:
2. BigLaw restructuring senior associate
5. Work is definitely interesting - a lot more strategic and barely any document work, which really alleviates the hours
6. TBD on advancement but I’m comfortable with the long-term outlook. There are so many asset managers (and growing) out there that would (or could be persuaded to) value what I bring to the table. Obviously not as clear cut of a path as staying @ BigLaw but that future was illusory anyway since I didn’t want to be a partner or live the counsel life.

[Anonymous User]

I interviewed with a few of the largest asset managers and found what the lawyers were doing was interesting but had a few reservations.

Do you find these roles are great for compensation and work-life balance but limited as far as advancement options? I saw people with 15-20 years experience in the roles I was interviewing for with 5 years at a firm, and all the senior lawyers weren’t internal promotions.

Also seems like less job security than a firm and more difficulty finding the next gig - any truth to this?

Do you think credit is a better place to be than say the macro or multi-strat shops?

[ByeSideJazz]

I interviewed with a few of the largest asset managers and found what the lawyers were doing was interesting but had a few reservations.

Do you find these roles are great for compensation and work-life balance but limited as far as advancement options? I saw people with 15-20 years experience in the roles I was interviewing for with 5 years at a firm, and all the senior lawyers weren’t internal promotions.

Also seems like less job security than a firm and more difficulty finding the next gig - any truth to this?

Do you think credit is a better place to be than say the macro or multi-strat shops?

There’s undoubtedly less job security but that’s mostly because there’s nothing like BigLaw. I can’t think of any other work environment where a lawyer contributes to the bottom line simply by working the hours. If you want maximum earnings and maximum stability as a lawyer, nothing can compare to BigLaw. These elite BigLaw partners make more over the life of their careers than most CEO’s, fund PM’s, traders, etc.. They can reliably expect $3-10 million a year until retirement, at which point they get the pension. Sure some of our guys may have a good year but there’s virtually nowhere else you can reliably expect millions year after year.

So is there less job security than a BigLaw partnership? Yes. But I don’t think it’s less stable any other job. If there’s the right mixture of good performance, reputation, and overall company prospects, you are okay. If things trend downward then you need to move on and find something else.

Same thing with finding another gig - you can’t just call up a recruiter and have multiple offers in a month or two like you would lateraling to a different firm. That said, the general trend is that asset managers are recognizing the value of having in-house deal lawyers, so these positions are becoming more prevalent.

My sense is that credit/PE offer more stability because of the deal volume and legal issues. But there are opportunities for more niche specialties as well like energy, tax, infrastructure, real estate.

ETA: Something to consider (that I hadn’t) is that having in-house deal lawyers is a marketing plus to the fund’s investors.

[Anonymous User]

I interviewed with a few of the largest asset managers and found what the lawyers were doing was interesting but had a few reservations.

Do you find these roles are great for compensation and work-life balance but limited as far as advancement options? I saw people with 15-20 years experience in the roles I was interviewing for with 5 years at a firm, and all the senior lawyers weren’t internal promotions.

Also seems like less job security than a firm and more difficulty finding the next gig - any truth to this?

Do you think credit is a better place to be than say the macro or multi-strat shops?

There’s undoubtedly less job security but that’s mostly because there’s nothing like BigLaw. I can’t think of any other work environment where a lawyer contributes to the bottom line simply by working the hours. If you want maximum earnings and maximum stability as a lawyer, nothing can compare to BigLaw. These elite BigLaw partners make more over the life of their careers than most CEO’s, fund PM’s, traders, etc.. They can reliably expect $3-10 million a year until retirement, at which point they get the pension. Sure some of our guys may have a good year but there’s virtually nowhere else you can reliably expect millions year after year.

So is there less job security than a BigLaw partnership? Yes. But I don’t think it’s less stable any other job. If there’s the right mixture of good performance, reputation, and overall company prospects, you are okay. If things trend downward then you need to move on and find something else.

Same thing with finding another gig - you can’t just call up a recruiter and have multiple offers in a month or two like you would lateraling to a different firm. That said, the general trend is that asset managers are recognizing the value of having in-house deal lawyers, so these positions are becoming more prevalent.

My sense is that credit/PE offer more stability because of the deal volume and legal issues. But there are opportunities for more niche specialties as well like energy, tax, infrastructure, real estate.

ETA: Something to consider (that I hadn’t) is that having in-house deal lawyers is a marketing plus to the fund’s investors.

Thanks so much! Buyside definitely seems like one of the better in-house options for sure.

[jagpaw]

I interviewed with a few of the largest asset managers and found what the lawyers were doing was interesting but had a few reservations.

Do you find these roles are great for compensation and work-life balance but limited as far as advancement options? I saw people with 15-20 years experience in the roles I was interviewing for with 5 years at a firm, and all the senior lawyers weren’t internal promotions.

Also seems like less job security than a firm and more difficulty finding the next gig - any truth to this?

Do you think credit is a better place to be than say the macro or multi-strat shops?

There’s undoubtedly less job security but that’s mostly because there’s nothing like BigLaw. I can’t think of any other work environment where a lawyer contributes to the bottom line simply by working the hours. If you want maximum earnings and maximum stability as a lawyer, nothing can compare to BigLaw. These elite BigLaw partners make more over the life of their careers than most CEO’s, fund PM’s, traders, etc.. They can reliably expect $3-10 million a year until retirement, at which point they get the pension. Sure some of our guys may have a good year but there’s virtually nowhere else you can reliably expect millions year after year.

So is there less job security than a BigLaw partnership? Yes. But I don’t think it’s less stable any other job. If there’s the right mixture of good performance, reputation, and overall company prospects, you are okay. If things trend downward then you need to move on and find something else.

Same thing with finding another gig - you can’t just call up a recruiter and have multiple offers in a month or two like you would lateraling to a different firm. That said, the general trend is that asset managers are recognizing the value of having in-house deal lawyers, so these positions are becoming more prevalent.

My sense is that credit/PE offer more stability because of the deal volume and legal issues. But there are opportunities for more niche specialties as well like energy, tax, infrastructure, real estate.

ETA: Something to consider (that I hadn’t) is that having in-house deal lawyers is a marketing plus to the fund’s investors.

Thanks for this. Would you happen to have examples of similar opportunities available to tax/energy/RE folks (speaking as a tax lawyer with RE experience).

[Goceltics25]

What biglaw practice groups translate well to your role or a role on your team? Would doing funds work be transferrable?

What skills in biglaw helped the most at your current job?

Thanks for doing this!

[Anonymous User]

What was it like recruiting into the role — was it difficult to land the position, or did you feel more like they were chasing you? Was a headhunter involved?

Thinking specifically of restructuring associates, when (in seniority) do you think the sweet spot is for finding these roles? Are there specific types of experiences or skillsets that restructuring associates should build in order to be attractive to the buy side?

[Anonymous User]

Thanks so much for starting this thread. A couple of questions:

1. Do you mind sharing roughly how many years you were in big law before making the transition? Do you think 2-3 years would be enough? Does it make a difference at all if you have a JD/MBA?

2. You mentioned that it is slow. I'm going into bankruptcy and am starting to worry about whether it's a good practice area b/c it's so countercyclical. Substantively I find it super interesting, but I worry about hitching my wagon to a career track where you can have a lot of slow years. Similarly, on the buyside, there's been a lot of coverage about how there just aren't deals to be done these days and to the extent that there are the space is totally dominated by a handful of big players. Are these valid concerns? Are there mitigating factors that make up for them? Do you worry about this, or not really?

3. Did you like big law restructuring? Do you ever wish you had stayed on and gone for partner? Setting lifestyle issues aside, do you find your work now more interesting than your work when you were at a firm?

[Anonymous User]

Thanks so much for starting this thread. A couple of questions:

1. Do you mind sharing roughly how many years you were in big law before making the transition? Do you think 2-3 years would be enough? Does it make a difference at all if you have a JD/MBA?

2. You mentioned that it is slow. I'm going into bankruptcy and am starting to worry about whether it's a good practice area b/c it's so countercyclical. Substantively I find it super interesting, but I worry about hitching my wagon to a career track where you can have a lot of slow years. Similarly, on the buyside, there's been a lot of coverage about how there just aren't deals to be done these days and to the extent that there are the space is totally dominated by a handful of big players. Are these valid concerns? Are there mitigating factors that make up for them? Do you worry about this, or not really?

3. Did you like big law restructuring? Do you ever wish you had stayed on and gone for partner? Setting lifestyle issues aside, do you find your work now more interesting than your work when you were at a firm?

Bump.