Lit boutiques without clerkship? Forum

(On Campus Interviews, Summer Associate positions, Firm Reviews, Tips, ...)
Forum rules
Anonymous Posting

Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are revealing sensitive employment related information about a firm, job, etc. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.

Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned.
Anonymous User
Posts: 428107
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Lit boutiques without clerkship?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:16 pm

Are there any lit boutiques that hire people who don't have clerkships? I've got top grades at CCN, and am a third year at a v50 firm. Curious how reasonable it is to try and lateral to a lit boutique.

Market pay isn't an absolute must, I'm mainly just trying to get good experience and marginally better QoL.

*Anon because of all the identifying info throughout the thread.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Anonymous User
Posts: 428107
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Lit boutiques without clerkship?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:25 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:16 pm
Are there any lit boutiques that hire people who don't have clerkships? I've got top grades at CCN, and am a third year at a v50 firm. Curious how reasonable it is to try and lateral to a lit boutique.

Market pay isn't an absolute must, I'm mainly just trying to get good experience and marginally better QoL.
What city are you in? Susman and Kellogg are out of the question. I know Howell Shuster has some associates that haven't clerked.

Anonymous User
Posts: 428107
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Lit boutiques without clerkship?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:25 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:16 pm
Are there any lit boutiques that hire people who don't have clerkships? I've got top grades at CCN, and am a third year at a v50 firm. Curious how reasonable it is to try and lateral to a lit boutique.

Market pay isn't an absolute must, I'm mainly just trying to get good experience and marginally better QoL.
What city are you in? Susman and Kellogg are out of the question. I know Howell Shuster has some associates that haven't clerked.
New York. Yeah definitely ruling out places like Susman. Just not sure what that really leaves me with.

moxcoal

New
Posts: 42
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:16 pm

Re: Lit boutiques without clerkship?

Post by moxcoal » Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:00 pm

Kobre & Kim and Holwell Schuster are good generalist candidates. There are plenty of great white collar boutiques as well. You might as well give clerking a shot too; I imagine you’d be competitive. In practice, I’ve come across plenty of mid and senior associates who clerked to transition out of their current role (among the many other reasons to clerk).

Anonymous User
Posts: 428107
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Lit boutiques without clerkship?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:09 pm

moxcoal wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:00 pm
Kobre & Kim and Holwell Schuster are good generalist candidates. There are plenty of great white collar boutiques as well. You might as well give clerking a shot too; I imagine you’d be competitive. In practice, I’ve come across plenty of mid and senior associates who clerked to transition out of their current role (among the many other reasons to clerk).

Thanks. Yeah I agree re giving clerking a shot, but it's a timing issue more than anything. I sent out a batch of applications for 2022 clerkships in June but no luck. Anything later than 2022 means staying at my current firm for 1 to 2 more years, and that's too long.

Want to continue reading?

Register now to search topics and post comments!

Absolutely FREE!


Anonymous User
Posts: 428107
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Lit boutiques without clerkship?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:38 pm

It depends what you count as a boutique. MTO, Irell, HH, a few others will absolutely hire laterals without clerkships. The pro tip is to check website bios and see how many associates you can find without clerkships; there are definitely some at each of those firms.

The big questions are going to be (1) do you have the substantive experience at your V50 to be an appealing candidate for a boutique? Many biglawyers don't really do much meaty work in the first couple years (one-off research memos, doc review, etc.) while boutique junior associates are taking depos, going to trial, etc. From an inside hiring perspective, that is a big problem I see when candidates come through my boutique as biglaw laterals. Having even a single depo as first chair is really helpful. And (2) is it a wise career move for you to change over in light of the likely experience gap? What do you want to do in law? Be a partner somewhere? Specialize in something? Stay a generalist trial lawyer? At some of these firms, most lawyers stay trial generalists their whole careers. They often aren't places where you can just do e.g. antitrust work all day (unless they are antitrust boutiques). Irell is an exception if you want to be a patent litigator. You should have some idea about what shape you want your career to take, and ideally a good story as to why.

Vault1002022

New
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:17 am

Re: Lit boutiques without clerkship?

Post by Vault1002022 » Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:39 pm

Assuming one gets a lit botique position (considering leaving my V10 for one), would not having a clerkship limit one's advancement?

Anonymous User
Posts: 428107
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Lit boutiques without clerkship?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:38 pm
It depends what you count as a boutique. MTO, Irell, HH, a few others will absolutely hire laterals without clerkships. The pro tip is to check website bios and see how many associates you can find without clerkships; there are definitely some at each of those firms.

The big questions are going to be (1) do you have the substantive experience at your V50 to be an appealing candidate for a boutique? Many biglawyers don't really do much meaty work in the first couple years (one-off research memos, doc review, etc.) while boutique junior associates are taking depos, going to trial, etc. From an inside hiring perspective, that is a big problem I see when candidates come through my boutique as biglaw laterals. Having even a single depo as first chair is really helpful. And (2) is it a wise career move for you to change over in light of the likely experience gap? What do you want to do in law? Be a partner somewhere? Specialize in something? Stay a generalist trial lawyer? At some of these firms, most lawyers stay trial generalists their whole careers. They often aren't places where you can just do e.g. antitrust work all day (unless they are antitrust boutiques). Irell is an exception if you want to be a patent litigator. You should have some idea about what shape you want your career to take, and ideally a good story as to why.

Thanks, this is a very helpful response. I'm curious what you consider to be substantive experience for a third year associate? I've traveled for and second chaired a dozen depos, heavy involvement in all phases of discovery (including expert), drafted complaints, motions to dismiss, SJ, class cert, and appellate briefs. That said, I've never gone to trial or first chaired anything.

Anonymous User
Posts: 428107
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Lit boutiques without clerkship?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:21 pm

I know folks who have been hired at Kaplan Hecker and Selendy & Gay without clerkships.

Want to continue reading?

Register for access!

Did I mention it was FREE ?


Anonymous User
Posts: 428107
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Lit boutiques without clerkship?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:37 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:38 pm
It depends what you count as a boutique. MTO, Irell, HH, a few others will absolutely hire laterals without clerkships. The pro tip is to check website bios and see how many associates you can find without clerkships; there are definitely some at each of those firms.

The big questions are going to be (1) do you have the substantive experience at your V50 to be an appealing candidate for a boutique? Many biglawyers don't really do much meaty work in the first couple years (one-off research memos, doc review, etc.) while boutique junior associates are taking depos, going to trial, etc. From an inside hiring perspective, that is a big problem I see when candidates come through my boutique as biglaw laterals. Having even a single depo as first chair is really helpful. And (2) is it a wise career move for you to change over in light of the likely experience gap? What do you want to do in law? Be a partner somewhere? Specialize in something? Stay a generalist trial lawyer? At some of these firms, most lawyers stay trial generalists their whole careers. They often aren't places where you can just do e.g. antitrust work all day (unless they are antitrust boutiques). Irell is an exception if you want to be a patent litigator. You should have some idea about what shape you want your career to take, and ideally a good story as to why.

Thanks, this is a very helpful response. I'm curious what you consider to be substantive experience for a third year associate? I've traveled for and second chaired a dozen depos, heavy involvement in all phases of discovery (including expert), drafted complaints, motions to dismiss, SJ, class cert, and appellate briefs. That said, I've never gone to trial or first chaired anything.
Anon you're quoting. The drafting experience sounds good, especially if you can truthfully say "drafted" rather than "drafted sections of". I have definitely seen resumes with less experience than this make it through to callback/offer. And I would highlight the drafting and depo experience over discovery. At my boutique, at least, everyone we see from biglaw has discovery experience, and we don't actually do a whole lot of it relatively speaking -- you generally don't hire a lit boutique to run a 20 million page review. Anything you can say about running cases or developing case strategy is also helpful, because you will be expected to be able to do that basically day 1 as a 3rd-year lateral. The expert work is good to highlight as well. The big gap is of course what you note, depos/argument. (Not trial as much because relatively few biglaw applicants come in with trial experience, though it's a nonzero number.) If you're able to get any first-chair experience either at depo or argument, no matter how minor, that is a big leg up at your seniority level. Pro bono cases are a really good way to do it, and no one cares how you got the experience. Just having done it is what counts.

Anonymous User
Posts: 428107
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Lit boutiques without clerkship?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:22 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:37 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:38 pm
It depends what you count as a boutique. MTO, Irell, HH, a few others will absolutely hire laterals without clerkships. The pro tip is to check website bios and see how many associates you can find without clerkships; there are definitely some at each of those firms.

The big questions are going to be (1) do you have the substantive experience at your V50 to be an appealing candidate for a boutique? Many biglawyers don't really do much meaty work in the first couple years (one-off research memos, doc review, etc.) while boutique junior associates are taking depos, going to trial, etc. From an inside hiring perspective, that is a big problem I see when candidates come through my boutique as biglaw laterals. Having even a single depo as first chair is really helpful. And (2) is it a wise career move for you to change over in light of the likely experience gap? What do you want to do in law? Be a partner somewhere? Specialize in something? Stay a generalist trial lawyer? At some of these firms, most lawyers stay trial generalists their whole careers. They often aren't places where you can just do e.g. antitrust work all day (unless they are antitrust boutiques). Irell is an exception if you want to be a patent litigator. You should have some idea about what shape you want your career to take, and ideally a good story as to why.

Thanks, this is a very helpful response. I'm curious what you consider to be substantive experience for a third year associate? I've traveled for and second chaired a dozen depos, heavy involvement in all phases of discovery (including expert), drafted complaints, motions to dismiss, SJ, class cert, and appellate briefs. That said, I've never gone to trial or first chaired anything.
Anon you're quoting. The drafting experience sounds good, especially if you can truthfully say "drafted" rather than "drafted sections of". I have definitely seen resumes with less experience than this make it through to callback/offer. And I would highlight the drafting and depo experience over discovery. At my boutique, at least, everyone we see from biglaw has discovery experience, and we don't actually do a whole lot of it relatively speaking -- you generally don't hire a lit boutique to run a 20 million page review. Anything you can say about running cases or developing case strategy is also helpful, because you will be expected to be able to do that basically day 1 as a 3rd-year lateral. The expert work is good to highlight as well. The big gap is of course what you note, depos/argument. (Not trial as much because relatively few biglaw applicants come in with trial experience, though it's a nonzero number.) If you're able to get any first-chair experience either at depo or argument, no matter how minor, that is a big leg up at your seniority level. Pro bono cases are a really good way to do it, and no one cares how you got the experience. Just having done it is what counts.
"The drafting experience sounds good, especially if you can truthfully say 'drafted' rather than 'drafted sections of.'"

Lol you got me--I guess for some of those examples "drafted" is a bit liberal.

What you said about running cases or developing case strategy is interesting though. Definitely not much I could say there. You guys really expect 3rd years to be running the show? I hope the biglaw transfers get training wheels for the first couple months...

Thanks for the response. Again, super helpful.

Anonymous User
Posts: 428107
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Lit boutiques without clerkship?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:24 pm

Don’t wanna derail thread, but what are the top lit boutiques, if any, with offices in boston?

Anonymous User
Posts: 428107
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Lit boutiques without clerkship?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:00 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:46 pm

"The drafting experience sounds good, especially if you can truthfully say 'drafted' rather than 'drafted sections of.'"

Lol you got me--I guess for some of those examples "drafted" is a bit liberal.

What you said about running cases or developing case strategy is interesting though. Definitely not much I could say there. You guys really expect 3rd years to be running the show? I hope the biglaw transfers get training wheels for the first couple months...

Thanks for the response. Again, super helpful.
Yes, that is an expectation at my boutique and I suspect many/most. I don't want to overstate it and rereading my last message, think I might have done so. Junior laterals we hire do start out doing more supervised work until people trust them to run the show; there are training wheels. It also depends on the case and where we are in it. If we are nearing trial or working up a big motion, or if it's just a big case, the partners are more involved. But day to day, I'm doing the first cut of everything, including the big picture questions, with more or less input depending on how involved the partner wants to be and the circumstances of the case. On very small matters I've sometimes been effectively a solo with a partner involved basically just as a sounding board if I need them. I was a second year the first time that happened.

The better way to put it at this stage is that the expectation before we hire a lateral is that they're someone who will be able to get there without extensive training, even if they aren't there yet. Training at my boutique and I suspect many is equivalent to just doing. I've never worked at a biglaw firm even as a summer, so I don't really know how it works there. But at least from a hiring perspective, the perception is that biglaw juniors just did projects as directed and conceived by seniors/partners and haven't yet learned to think strategically about a case. Whatever you can do to show that isn't the case can help. Sometimes that just means being impressive in the callback; for whatever reason these concerns don't always come up, but this + lack of substantive experience is among the most common reasons biglaw lateral candidates might make it to a CB but not get an offer.

Register now!

Resources to assist law school applicants, students & graduates.

It's still FREE!


Post Reply Post Anonymous Reply  

Return to “Legal Employment”