Vault 2022 Released Forum

[SGTslaughter]

Goodwin moving up by one despite the layoffs… smh

Think the layoffs occurred after the survey deadline. But I hope everyone remembered this year - I sure did.

Or, you could rank firms based on quality and what you actually know about them in real life. The "layoffs" were completely overblown by people on the internet. Anyone I know who was "laid off" are the people who would be asked to leave any other firm. I'm talking about people literally not doing work or responding to emails.

Maybe someone who was counseled out had a different experience, but this seemed like a complete BS story and people should stop perpetuating it. Every firm does this, and the numbers that started circulating online are completely inaccurate.

I don't know why people rally so hard for their firms on TLS. Sorry that your firm is the only V50 that laid people off as soon as there was a hint of a downturn last year, but there's been enough evidence to convince me that it's not made up. Unless there was a substantial chunk of attorneys who got fired because they refused to do any work whatsoever or respond to emails, which would speak volumes about the quality of people that Goodwin hires, which... would make me vote them very low on these surveys anyway.

[legalpotato]

DPW and Simpson associates on suicide watch?

[Anonymous User]

DPW and Simpson associates on suicide watch?

why lol

[Anonymous User]

Those poor/clueless law students interested in lit who look at this and think K&L Gates and Munger are remotely comparable firms...

Except this literally never happens. Law students aren’t as clueless as this board makes them out to be.

IDK man ... several years ago, when Boies was at the top of the lit world (how things have changed), one of my classmates saw that I was waiting for a Boies interview and talked to me as though she felt bad I couldn't land an offer with a V20.

Another one was legitimately debating an offer between V&E Houston or Baker McKenzie, based purely on Vault. If you know anything about that market, you know how misguided that is.

[Anonymous User]

A few observations from the specialty vault rankings…

~ In bankruptcy, KE took #1 away from Weil — not unprecedented but perhaps a verdict on which firm best capitalized on the covid RX wave
~ For NY rankings, DPW from #5 to #3 and S&C from #3 to #5. First time since 2008, that DPW > S&C in this ranking. Also in NY, Cleary falls to #11, behind Weil(?) and out-of-towners KE & LW
~ Cooley seemingly made moves across the board, but that is especially true in M&A (#17 to #12)
~ BSF fell hard in general commercial lit (unsurprising); STB jumped somewhat in the same category (#26 to #20)

[Anonymous User]

A few observations from the specialty vault rankings…

~ In bankruptcy, KE took #1 away from Weil — not unprecedented but perhaps a verdict on which firm best capitalized on the covid RX wave
~ For NY rankings, DPW from #5 to #3 and S&C from #3 to #5. First time since 2008, that DPW > S&C in this ranking. Also in NY, Cleary falls to #11, behind Weil(?) and out-of-towners KE & LW
~ Cooley seemingly made moves across the board, but that is especially true in M&A (#17 to #12)
~ BSF fell hard in general commercial lit (unsurprising); STB jumped somewhat in the same category (#26 to #20)

But their bonuses last year were actually pretty good, and above market across the board I believe? Not sure if the input for this Vault ranking come in before/after that. We'll have to see if that was a one-time attempt to keep even more associates from leaving or something that will be regular there. If so, I expect them to climb back up in the rankings to where they were before last year's debacles.

[Anonymous User]

Vault is dumb

[Rule23andMe]

Vault is good

[Anonymous User]

A few observations from the specialty vault rankings…

~ In bankruptcy, KE took #1 away from Weil — not unprecedented but perhaps a verdict on which firm best capitalized on the covid RX wave
~ For NY rankings, DPW from #5 to #3 and S&C from #3 to #5. First time since 2008, that DPW > S&C in this ranking. Also in NY, Cleary falls to #11, behind Weil(?) and out-of-towners KE & LW
~ Cooley seemingly made moves across the board, but that is especially true in M&A (#17 to #12)
~ BSF fell hard in general commercial lit (unsurprising); STB jumped somewhat in the same category (#26 to #20)

Is this just because DPW led the jump up to 205 or is there some sort of actually distinguishable difference in recent trajectory between the two firms lol

[Anonymous User]

A few observations from the specialty vault rankings…

~ In bankruptcy, KE took #1 away from Weil — not unprecedented but perhaps a verdict on which firm best capitalized on the covid RX wave
~ For NY rankings, DPW from #5 to #3 and S&C from #3 to #5. First time since 2008, that DPW > S&C in this ranking. Also in NY, Cleary falls to #11, behind Weil(?) and out-of-towners KE & LW
~ Cooley seemingly made moves across the board, but that is especially true in M&A (#17 to #12)
~ BSF fell hard in general commercial lit (unsurprising); STB jumped somewhat in the same category (#26 to #20)

Is this just because DPW led the jump up to 205 or is there some sort of actually distinguishable difference in recent trajectory between the two firms lol

It is probably comp** related — which, IMO, is a good thing. To the extent that firms and their recruiting departments continue to keep an eye on Vault, they should have to grapple with the fact that money talks, and you can buy your way up in the rankings. Firms competing on associate pay would do us all some good.

**Comp meaning the covid bonuses (2020 and 2021) that DPW led. I think the “205” standard was set after the latest Vault survey went out.

[Anonymous User]

A few observations from the specialty vault rankings…

~ In bankruptcy, KE took #1 away from Weil — not unprecedented but perhaps a verdict on which firm best capitalized on the covid RX wave
~ For NY rankings, DPW from #5 to #3 and S&C from #3 to #5. First time since 2008, that DPW > S&C in this ranking. Also in NY, Cleary falls to #11, behind Weil(?) and out-of-towners KE & LW
~ Cooley seemingly made moves across the board, but that is especially true in M&A (#17 to #12)
~ BSF fell hard in general commercial lit (unsurprising); STB jumped somewhat in the same category (#26 to #20)

Is this just because DPW led the jump up to 205 or is there some sort of actually distinguishable difference in recent trajectory between the two firms lol

It is probably comp** related — which, IMO, is a good thing. To the extent that firms and their recruiting departments continue to keep an eye on Vault, they should have to grapple with the fact that money talks, and you can buy your way up in the rankings. Firms competing on associate pay would do us all some good.

**Comp meaning the covid bonuses (2020 and 2021) that DPW led. I think the “205” standard was set after the latest Vault survey went out.

This. S&C prb doesn’t care about vault rankings because they think they are better than everyone else, but I guess if they keep falling in the rankings they might have to change that attitude.

[enoca]

S&C also took one of the biggest dumps on their 2020 summers, so maybe that plays in as a negative signaling effect.

[Anonymous User]

As someone at a non-DPW V10 -- DPW looks like it's made huge inroads in strength of practice in M&A, some PE too, their restructuring team is now elite. Associate comp and PPP are up too but the firm is just on a general tear. S&C is a good firm too but DPW's trajectory is just solid right now. Maybe just an outsider looking in but that's the perspective.

[Anonymous User]

S&C also took one of the biggest dumps on their 2020 summers, so maybe that plays in as a negative signaling effect.

I mean they gave 100% offers and gave their summers 20k to chill for a summer. Doesn't sound that bad to me

[Anonymous User]

As someone at a non-DPW V10 -- DPW looks like it's made huge inroads in strength of practice in M&A, some PE too, their restructuring team is now elite. Associate comp and PPP are up too but the firm is just on a general tear. S&C is a good firm too but DPW's trajectory is just solid right now. Maybe just an outsider looking in but that's the perspective.

I agree with you re: DPW doing great, but I wouldn’t say vault is indicative of how firms are really doing. It’s just like a popularity contest. They got shit on when they put Skadden ahead of Wachtell so they switched them back. People praised DPW for being a comp leader, so they had to give them some credit. But, they weren’t brave enough to make DPW 5th in the overall ranking because of the shit they would have to take from the people at Kirkland and Latham, so they just changed the new york ranking which people care less about. Obviously, this is just a guess, lol.

[Anonymous User]

As someone at a non-DPW V10 -- DPW looks like it's made huge inroads in strength of practice in M&A, some PE too, their restructuring team is now elite. Associate comp and PPP are up too but the firm is just on a general tear. S&C is a good firm too but DPW's trajectory is just solid right now. Maybe just an outsider looking in but that's the perspective.

Is DPW M&A doing well? From the latest league tables it seems like they are doing way worse this year than they used to. Thought it was pretty weird given how hot the market is.

[Anonymous User]

S&C also took one of the biggest dumps on their 2020 summers, so maybe that plays in as a negative signaling effect.

I mean they gave 100% offers and gave their summers 20k to chill for a summer. Doesn't sound that bad to me

Well, they were the only V10 firm not to give their summers 100% full pay (~$36-37k). Of the V25, the only other firms that didn't give full pay were White & Case and MoFo, both of whom still paid more than the $19k from S&C (and also gave 100% offers).

Sure, $19k for the summer isn't bad in the abstract. But their summers were relying on $36k. More importantly, S&C are such snobby assholes about their supposed preftige all the time, yet they are being outclassed and outspent by dozens of firms below them (on both Vault and Amlaw). Either they couldn't afford to pay more, or they didn't care enough about their summers to shell out. Not sure why anyone would go there if they had an offer at a peer firm who won't screw them.

https://www.reddit.com/r/LawSchool/comm ... m_changes/

[Anonymous User]

lol I knew this was gonna happen.

[Anonymous User]

How are Fenwick and Fish still in the 70s >.> really need a bump to above 50.

[Anonymous User]

A few observations from the specialty vault rankings…

~ In bankruptcy, KE took #1 away from Weil — not unprecedented but perhaps a verdict on which firm best capitalized on the covid RX wave
~ For NY rankings, DPW from #5 to #3 and S&C from #3 to #5. First time since 2008, that DPW > S&C in this ranking. Also in NY, Cleary falls to #11, behind Weil(?) and out-of-towners KE & LW
~ Cooley seemingly made moves across the board, but that is especially true in M&A (#17 to #12)
~ BSF fell hard in general commercial lit (unsurprising); STB jumped somewhat in the same category (#26 to #20)

But their bonuses last year were actually pretty good, and above market across the board I believe? Not sure if the input for this Vault ranking come in before/after that. We'll have to see if that was a one-time attempt to keep even more associates from leaving or something that will be regular there. If so, I expect them to climb back up in the rankings to where they were before last year's debacles.

The formula comp bonuses have always been big, but they're phasing those out for future associates. Either way, six figure bonuses didn't prevent BSF's rep from dropping, so I doubt it's going to move the needle for anyone.

[Anonymous User]

I agree with you re: DPW doing great, but I wouldn’t say vault is indicative of how firms are really doing. It’s just like a popularity contest. They got shit on when they put Skadden ahead of Wachtell so they switched them back. People praised DPW for being a comp leader, so they had to give them some credit. But, they weren’t brave enough to make DPW 5th in the overall ranking because of the shit they would have to take from the people at Kirkland and Latham, so they just changed the new york ranking which people care less about. Obviously, this is just a guess, lol.

Who's "they"? Are you suggesting Vault's ranking is really decided on by committee or that associates collectively thought this when rating firms?

[Anonymous User]

A few observations from the specialty vault rankings…

~ In bankruptcy, KE took #1 away from Weil — not unprecedented but perhaps a verdict on which firm best capitalized on the covid RX wave
~ For NY rankings, DPW from #5 to #3 and S&C from #3 to #5. First time since 2008, that DPW > S&C in this ranking. Also in NY, Cleary falls to #11, behind Weil(?) and out-of-towners KE & LW
~ Cooley seemingly made moves across the board, but that is especially true in M&A (#17 to #12)
~ BSF fell hard in general commercial lit (unsurprising); STB jumped somewhat in the same category (#26 to #20)

But their bonuses last year were actually pretty good, and above market across the board I believe? Not sure if the input for this Vault ranking come in before/after that. We'll have to see if that was a one-time attempt to keep even more associates from leaving or something that will be regular there. If so, I expect them to climb back up in the rankings to where they were before last year's debacles.

The formula comp bonuses have always been big, but they're phasing those out for future associates. Either way, six figure bonuses didn't prevent BSF's rep from dropping, so I doubt it's going to move the needle for anyone.

does anyone take the specialty rankings on vault seriously? They seem like a joke. And didn't Kirkland just lay off like 20 of its restructuring associates?

[Anonymous User]

A few observations from the specialty vault rankings…

~ In bankruptcy, KE took #1 away from Weil — not unprecedented but perhaps a verdict on which firm best capitalized on the covid RX wave
~ For NY rankings, DPW from #5 to #3 and S&C from #3 to #5. First time since 2008, that DPW > S&C in this ranking. Also in NY, Cleary falls to #11, behind Weil(?) and out-of-towners KE & LW
~ Cooley seemingly made moves across the board, but that is especially true in M&A (#17 to #12)
~ BSF fell hard in general commercial lit (unsurprising); STB jumped somewhat in the same category (#26 to #20)

But their bonuses last year were actually pretty good, and above market across the board I believe? Not sure if the input for this Vault ranking come in before/after that. We'll have to see if that was a one-time attempt to keep even more associates from leaving or something that will be regular there. If so, I expect them to climb back up in the rankings to where they were before last year's debacles.

The formula comp bonuses have always been big, but they're phasing those out for future associates. Either way, six figure bonuses didn't prevent BSF's rep from dropping, so I doubt it's going to move the needle for anyone.

does anyone take the specialty rankings on vault seriously? They seem like a joke. And didn't Kirkland just lay off like 20 of its restructuring associates?

They did - but long after the voting deadline. If I was an Rx associate looking for a job I'd 100% go to Weil over K&E because of this (no layoffs in Weil Rx, they're just making a bunch of them do corporate work until Rx picks back up).

That being said, K&E absolutely took the lion's share of large bankruptcies last year and it wasn't even close - mostly because K&E already had a large Rx ggroup to take on all of the work and Weil just decided to go on a hiring spree in the middle of last year when things were already beginning to cool down.

[Anonymous User]

A few observations from the specialty vault rankings…

~ In bankruptcy, KE took #1 away from Weil — not unprecedented but perhaps a verdict on which firm best capitalized on the covid RX wave
~ For NY rankings, DPW from #5 to #3 and S&C from #3 to #5. First time since 2008, that DPW > S&C in this ranking. Also in NY, Cleary falls to #11, behind Weil(?) and out-of-towners KE & LW
~ Cooley seemingly made moves across the board, but that is especially true in M&A (#17 to #12)
~ BSF fell hard in general commercial lit (unsurprising); STB jumped somewhat in the same category (#26 to #20)

But their bonuses last year were actually pretty good, and above market across the board I believe? Not sure if the input for this Vault ranking come in before/after that. We'll have to see if that was a one-time attempt to keep even more associates from leaving or something that will be regular there. If so, I expect them to climb back up in the rankings to where they were before last year's debacles.

The formula comp bonuses have always been big, but they're phasing those out for future associates. Either way, six figure bonuses didn't prevent BSF's rep from dropping, so I doubt it's going to move the needle for anyone.

does anyone take the specialty rankings on vault seriously? They seem like a joke. And didn't Kirkland just lay off like 20 of its restructuring associates?

They did - but long after the voting deadline. If I was an Rx associate looking for a job I'd 100% go to Weil over K&E because of this (no layoffs in Weil Rx, they're just making a bunch of them do corporate work until Rx picks back up).

That being said, K&E absolutely took the lion's share of large bankruptcies last year and it wasn't even close - mostly because K&E already had a large Rx ggroup to take on all of the work and Weil just decided to go on a hiring spree in the middle of last year when things were already beginning to cool down.

So Kirkland works their RX associates to death when business is hot and then lays them all off shortly after? Seems like a great firm...

[Anonymous User]

A few observations from the specialty vault rankings…

~ In bankruptcy, KE took #1 away from Weil — not unprecedented but perhaps a verdict on which firm best capitalized on the covid RX wave
~ For NY rankings, DPW from #5 to #3 and S&C from #3 to #5. First time since 2008, that DPW > S&C in this ranking. Also in NY, Cleary falls to #11, behind Weil(?) and out-of-towners KE & LW
~ Cooley seemingly made moves across the board, but that is especially true in M&A (#17 to #12)
~ BSF fell hard in general commercial lit (unsurprising); STB jumped somewhat in the same category (#26 to #20)

But their bonuses last year were actually pretty good, and above market across the board I believe? Not sure if the input for this Vault ranking come in before/after that. We'll have to see if that was a one-time attempt to keep even more associates from leaving or something that will be regular there. If so, I expect them to climb back up in the rankings to where they were before last year's debacles.

The formula comp bonuses have always been big, but they're phasing those out for future associates. Either way, six figure bonuses didn't prevent BSF's rep from dropping, so I doubt it's going to move the needle for anyone.

does anyone take the specialty rankings on vault seriously? They seem like a joke. And didn't Kirkland just lay off like 20 of its restructuring associates?

They did - but long after the voting deadline. If I was an Rx associate looking for a job I'd 100% go to Weil over K&E because of this (no layoffs in Weil Rx, they're just making a bunch of them do corporate work until Rx picks back up).

That being said, K&E absolutely took the lion's share of large bankruptcies last year and it wasn't even close - mostly because K&E already had a large Rx ggroup to take on all of the work and Weil just decided to go on a hiring spree in the middle of last year when things were already beginning to cool down.

So Kirkland works their RX associates to death when business is hot and then lays them all off shortly after? Seems like a great firm...

Associates were moved to other groups that were insanely busy as rx slowed down, not laid off, and those that refused just left. Partners left because they had no chance at shares. People should stop spreading rumors: https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/top-ba ... 1623962752