Is Dirty Sexy Money Complete Fiction or are there really lawyers who directly work for old money families? Forum

[Inhousefuture]

Hello, I am not sure if any of you remember the show Dirty Sexy Money. This show resolves around a man who became the general counsel to an old money aristocratic family. In the series, he is deeply involved with their lives, is their direct employee, and works at the family office I think.

That sounded like an interesting job, working around and directly for an old money aristocratic family at their actual office. In doing some research, YES there are plenty of lawyers in who who have old money aristocratic clients. However, they almost all seem to work for law firms. Maybe the two or three largest family foundations (Gates, Rockefeller) might have a few lawyers in the building. But, they are several levels down in reporting directly to the principals.

So, is Dirty Sexy Money fiction or are has anyone seen any lawyers who actually WORK DIRECTLY for old money aristocratic families as employees at the Family Office, Foundation, Operating business, etc?

Thanks

[jhett]

So, is Dirty Sexy Money fiction or are has anyone seen any lawyers who actually WORK DIRECTLY for old money aristocratic families as employees at the Family Office, Foundation, Operating business, etc?

Yes, there are. Donald Trump is one very famous example - see Michael Cohen (lawyer in Trump Organization) and Rudy Guiliani (personal lawyer). Although I'm not sure I'd characterize Trump as aristocratic or old money.

[el madrileno]

This type of character is my favorite recurring character in media. Tom Hagen is the best, but the current title belt holder is Gerri from Succession. I guess she's not counsel for the family, but she might as well be.

[Mullens]

Hello, I am not sure if any of you remember the show Dirty Sexy Money. This show resolves around a man who became the general counsel to an old money aristocratic family. In the series, he is deeply involved with their lives, is their direct employee, and works at the family office I think.

That sounded like an interesting job, working around and directly for an old money aristocratic family at their actual office. In doing some research, YES there are plenty of lawyers in who who have old money aristocratic clients. However, they almost all seem to work for law firms. Maybe the two or three largest family foundations (Gates, Rockefeller) might have a few lawyers in the building. But, they are several levels down in reporting directly to the principals.

So, is Dirty Sexy Money fiction or are has anyone seen any lawyers who actually WORK DIRECTLY for old money aristocratic families as employees at the Family Office, Foundation, Operating business, etc?

Thanks

I know several people who have exited biglaw into this role (GC of a family office) but they seem to have less involvement with the actual family than you’d expect (or that is portrayed on a tv show) from talking with them.

[ConfusedNYer]

This is basically how Milbank originally started - but I think it is much less of a thing / not really a career goal you can have (best way to get it would be to have some sort of actual social relationship with the family, I guess?)

Closest thing I can think of that is kind of a regular attorney position is a small/solo T&E lawyer with a handful of old rich clients, but that's not really the same thing.

[nealric]

Working for a family office is a thing. I know someone who did it for a billionaire family.

At the end of the day, it tends to be more like working for a mid-size business enterprise. The amount of professional distance will depend on the specifics of the family and their business affairs. For the person I know, it was more or less as professional corporate-type job that nobody would make a TV show about without some pretty serious embellishment. I think someone who is involved like Michael Cohen is the exception.

[Anonymous User]

I have 3 degrees of separation from someone who worked for a major family office (you’ve definitely heard of the family) at STB and subsequently went “in-house” to work for the family office full time. Apparently he now runs it, though I don’t know personally what his degree of involvement is.

Most of the elite NY firms have private clients/T&E groups too, though they’re usually small and designed to service the personal needs of business clients.

[Anonymous User]

I have 3 degrees of separation from someone who worked for a major family office (you’ve definitely heard of the family) at STB and subsequently went “in-house” to work for the family office full time. Apparently he now runs it, though I don’t know personally what his degree of involvement is.

Most of the elite NY firms have private clients/T&E groups too, though they’re usually small and designed to service the personal needs of business clients.

What group was that person in at STB?

[Anonymous User]

I interviewed for a family office of a billionaire before withdrawing. The role was straight up being a Swiss Army knife lawyer for a wealthy family. Like they wanted to know if I was familiar with helicopter, jet and yacht leases, large vendor contracts, investment funds, trusts and estates, litigation, general criminal law (in case anyone in the family got a DUI or arrested), etc. Very interesting in the abstract and it sounded like the lawyer got the perk of using some of the families’ amenities.

[Anonymous User]

I interviewed for a family office of a billionaire before withdrawing. The role was straight up being a Swiss Army knife lawyer for a wealthy family. Like they wanted to know if I was familiar with helicopter, jet and yacht leases, large vendor contracts, investment funds, trusts and estates, litigation, general criminal law (in case anyone in the family got a DUI or arrested), etc. Very interesting in the abstract and it sounded like the lawyer got the perk of using some of the families’ amenities.

That’s sounds like a cool gig, could you give a ballpark on comp?

[Anonymous User]

I interviewed for a family office of a billionaire before withdrawing. The role was straight up being a Swiss Army knife lawyer for a wealthy family. Like they wanted to know if I was familiar with helicopter, jet and yacht leases, large vendor contracts, investment funds, trusts and estates, litigation, general criminal law (in case anyone in the family got a DUI or arrested), etc. Very interesting in the abstract and it sounded like the lawyer got the perk of using some of the families’ amenities.

That’s sounds like a cool gig, could you give a ballpark on comp?

Think something like $250k + 25% bonus and a serious revisiting of comp after the first year to see what was appropriate in light of value added.

[tlsguy2020]

Gavin Newsom's dad did something similar for the Getty family: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Newsom

[Anonymous User]

I do this. Sorry to be anonymous. Most of these posts are correct. I was a T&E and private funds lawyer which was attractive to the family. I left as a 5th year and am an AGC in the family office (4 years in this role). Very much a swiss army role which is perfect for me. I would say that the work a family office is often driven by the nature of the family's operating business, if they still have one. That said, if the operating business is big enough, sometimes there is no interaction with the family office. I usually represent the family's interests if the opco is making a big decision. The work of each family office also depends on which generation the family is in. Tax or T&E is generally the best way to get in the door, then you just need to be open to anything once you're in.

[Anonymous User]

I do this. Sorry to be anonymous. Most of these posts are correct. I was a T&E and private funds lawyer which was attractive to the family. I left as a 5th year and am an AGC in the family office (4 years in this role). Very much a swiss army role which is perfect for me. I would say that the work a family office is often driven by the nature of the family's operating business, if they still have one. That said, if the operating business is big enough, sometimes there is no interaction with the family office. I usually represent the family's interests if the opco is making a big decision. The work of each family office also depends on which generation the family is in. Tax or T&E is generally the best way to get in the door, then you just need to be open to anything once you're in.

Would you be willing to ballpark comp as well?

[Anonymous User]

I do this. Sorry to be anonymous. Most of these posts are correct. I was a T&E and private funds lawyer which was attractive to the family. I left as a 5th year and am an AGC in the family office (4 years in this role). Very much a swiss army role which is perfect for me. I would say that the work a family office is often driven by the nature of the family's operating business, if they still have one. That said, if the operating business is big enough, sometimes there is no interaction with the family office. I usually represent the family's interests if the opco is making a big decision. The work of each family office also depends on which generation the family is in. Tax or T&E is generally the best way to get in the door, then you just need to be open to anything once you're in.

Would you be willing to ballpark comp as well?

Comp is generally quite good. Always nice to get a piece of any investment funds, or some phantom shares in the operating business, both of which have become market. If not, generally they will gross up your ordinary income. I've seen that families want to be able to "treat you well" while of course not spending too much more than they would by keeping all legal work external. I was given a bump from my 5th year pay, both base and bonus, essentially putting me near the top of the big law associate scale. I was told not to expect any material changes for at least 5 years, then we'd reassess.

[Anonymous User]

I do this. Sorry to be anonymous. Most of these posts are correct. I was a T&E and private funds lawyer which was attractive to the family. I left as a 5th year and am an AGC in the family office (4 years in this role). Very much a swiss army role which is perfect for me. I would say that the work a family office is often driven by the nature of the family's operating business, if they still have one. That said, if the operating business is big enough, sometimes there is no interaction with the family office. I usually represent the family's interests if the opco is making a big decision. The work of each family office also depends on which generation the family is in. Tax or T&E is generally the best way to get in the door, then you just need to be open to anything once you're in.

Would you be willing to ballpark comp as well?

Comp is generally quite good. Always nice to get a piece of any investment funds, or some phantom shares in the operating business, both of which have become market. If not, generally they will gross up your ordinary income. I've seen that families want to be able to "treat you well" while of course not spending too much more than they would by keeping all legal work external. I was given a bump from my 5th year pay, both base and bonus, essentially putting me near the top of the big law associate scale. I was told not to expect any material changes for at least 5 years, then we'd reassess.

Wow, that sounds like a pretty awesome gig if you can get it!

[jagpaw]

I do this. Sorry to be anonymous. Most of these posts are correct. I was a T&E and private funds lawyer which was attractive to the family. I left as a 5th year and am an AGC in the family office (4 years in this role). Very much a swiss army role which is perfect for me. I would say that the work a family office is often driven by the nature of the family's operating business, if they still have one. That said, if the operating business is big enough, sometimes there is no interaction with the family office. I usually represent the family's interests if the opco is making a big decision. The work of each family office also depends on which generation the family is in. Tax or T&E is generally the best way to get in the door, then you just need to be open to anything once you're in.

Thanks for this insight. Speaking as a tax attorney who has looked into these exits, do you view T&E exposure as critical? I’ve spoken to one recruiter who suggested T&E would be a better path, but as you know transactional tax and T&E are very different departments in big law firms so it’s tough to get that exposure. Thanks in advance and happy to chat through PM.

[Anonymous User]

I do this. Sorry to be anonymous. Most of these posts are correct. I was a T&E and private funds lawyer which was attractive to the family. I left as a 5th year and am an AGC in the family office (4 years in this role). Very much a swiss army role which is perfect for me. I would say that the work a family office is often driven by the nature of the family's operating business, if they still have one. That said, if the operating business is big enough, sometimes there is no interaction with the family office. I usually represent the family's interests if the opco is making a big decision. The work of each family office also depends on which generation the family is in. Tax or T&E is generally the best way to get in the door, then you just need to be open to anything once you're in.

Thanks for this insight. Speaking as a tax attorney who has looked into these exits, do you view T&E exposure as critical? I’ve spoken to one recruiter who suggested T&E would be a better path, but as you know transactional tax and T&E are very different departments in big law firms so it’s tough to get that exposure. Thanks in advance and happy to chat through PM.

Hi, some T&E experience (at least understanding of transfer taxes) is critical if the legal team is small (or maybe if you're the only one) because that type of structuring and planning is core to the function of the office. I honestly think transactional tax is a better skillset in the long run, is harder to learn on the job, and if the family still has an operating company you can provide more immediate value, especially these days with quickly changing tax landscape, than T&E work which is inherently long term planning. Partnership tax experience is essential, and there's really not much difference between the partnership work done by T&E folks vs PIF folks, so I would recommend trying to get some PIF / structuring work in if possible.

[jagpaw]

I do this. Sorry to be anonymous. Most of these posts are correct. I was a T&E and private funds lawyer which was attractive to the family. I left as a 5th year and am an AGC in the family office (4 years in this role). Very much a swiss army role which is perfect for me. I would say that the work a family office is often driven by the nature of the family's operating business, if they still have one. That said, if the operating business is big enough, sometimes there is no interaction with the family office. I usually represent the family's interests if the opco is making a big decision. The work of each family office also depends on which generation the family is in. Tax or T&E is generally the best way to get in the door, then you just need to be open to anything once you're in.

Thanks for this insight. Speaking as a tax attorney who has looked into these exits, do you view T&E exposure as critical? I’ve spoken to one recruiter who suggested T&E would be a better path, but as you know transactional tax and T&E are very different departments in big law firms so it’s tough to get that exposure. Thanks in advance and happy to chat through PM.

Hi, some T&E experience (at least understanding of transfer taxes) is critical if the legal team is small (or maybe if you're the only one) because that type of structuring and planning is core to the function of the office. I honestly think transactional tax is a better skillset in the long run, is harder to learn on the job, and if the family still has an operating company you can provide more immediate value, especially these days with quickly changing tax landscape, than T&E work which is inherently long term planning. Partnership tax experience is essential, and there's really not much difference between the partnership work done by T&E folks vs PIF folks, so I would recommend trying to get some PIF / structuring work in if possible.

Thank you. I’m struggling on whether the T&E shift is worth it given the reasons you’ve mentioned, and I do quite a bit of investment fund formation work currently (assume PIF refers to private investment fund structuring?) on the tax side, though not in the trust context. Interesting to hear you say that transactional tax might be the better skill set - certainly reassuring to hear, but at least from looking on indeed/LinkedIn it does seem like T&E folks have more exit options into varying paths (e.g. wealth management companies. Banks, etc) than we pure tax folks have.

What complicates the decision is transactional tax and T&E don’t have much interaction at my firm so it might be difficult to get that exposure, so I’m wondering whether a stint in a boutique for UHNW individuals might check that box (a more predictable lifestyle vs. transactional tax might prevent burnout as well). I separately might have an opportunity to go in-house in a generalist legal role with a hedge fund so not sure if that would be a good launching pad to work with a family office also. Happy to connect over PM and thanks again for your advice.