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Corp associate at a NY V5. So burnt out. Took a vacation recently but returning to work made me feel worse somehow. Probably will be looking at exit options soon. I know a lot of my fellow classmates are as well. We've been hemorrhaging mid-levels and even juniors without any fresh lateral blood. Ugh.

You know things are generally bad when multiple first years are quitting. One just quit at my firm without anything lined up even.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:20 pm

Corp associate at a NY V5. So burnt out. Took a vacation recently but returning to work made me feel worse somehow. Probably will be looking at exit options soon. I know a lot of my fellow classmates are as well. We've been hemorrhaging mid-levels and even juniors without any fresh lateral blood. Ugh.

Same here - 40% over pace this year, finished last year at 2600 hours (and for context, I'm a fourth year now so not going for partner or anything else beyond shear survival). Just went on vacation which helped somewhat during the week I was out but the first Monday back basically sent me into a depression. Just set up a coffee meeting with a mentor who's a few years more senior in hopes that they can share their secrets / talk me into sticking around. That being said, I also feel bad for our staffing partner - he's as much stuck in this staffing situation as we are and people keep quitting.

Same things been happening here at V50. So many people just moving or quitting. I think four to five people quit in last three months (that I know of) and we hired maybe one new lateral?

Partners are just as busy too. Idk what to do other than pray and hope it lets up soon.

Does the money make it easier to survive burnout? Like knowing you're saving a several handfuls of money more than other people who are also burning out during the pandemic.

I'm in a secondary market and making $110k less than Milbank scale (no bonuses here) and annualizing at 1880 hours after taking two breaks (one called a vacation and the other was full on mental health leave). I keep wondering if I didn't feel like I was busting my ass for this amount of money that I would feel better or be able to tell myself it's worth it. Is that just wishful thinking?

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 08, 2021 2:52 am

Does the money make it easier to survive burnout? Like knowing you're saving a several handfuls of money more than other people who are also burning out during the pandemic.

I'm in a secondary market and making $110k less than Milbank scale (no bonuses here) and annualizing at 1880 hours after taking two breaks (one called a vacation and the other was full on mental health leave). I keep wondering if I didn't feel like I was busting my ass for this amount of money that I would feel better or be able to tell myself it's worth it. Is that just wishful thinking?

The answer to your question is no. It's just more money. If you are having that much trouble with 1880 hours I can't reccomend enough avoiding big law. You'll either get fired for billing 1880 hours or you'll be 2x miserable billing considerably more.

Not to minimize ur pain, I’m sure 1880 can feel like a lot, I don’t know anybody annualizinf under 2500 at my v10. So ur probably making the same on an hourly basis

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:18 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 08, 2021 2:52 am

Does the money make it easier to survive burnout? Like knowing you're saving a several handfuls of money more than other people who are also burning out during the pandemic.

I'm in a secondary market and making $110k less than Milbank scale (no bonuses here) and annualizing at 1880 hours after taking two breaks (one called a vacation and the other was full on mental health leave). I keep wondering if I didn't feel like I was busting my ass for this amount of money that I would feel better or be able to tell myself it's worth it. Is that just wishful thinking?

The answer to your question is no. It's just more money. If you are having that much trouble with 1880 hours I can't reccomend enough avoiding big law. You'll either get fired for billing 1880 hours or you'll be 2x miserable billing considerably more.

Lol what godawful firm do you work at that’s firing anyone right now for billing 1880 hours? 1600 looks bad but 1800 is fine.

Ultramar vistas wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:33 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:18 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 08, 2021 2:52 am

Does the money make it easier to survive burnout? Like knowing you're saving a several handfuls of money more than other people who are also burning out during the pandemic.

I'm in a secondary market and making $110k less than Milbank scale (no bonuses here) and annualizing at 1880 hours after taking two breaks (one called a vacation and the other was full on mental health leave). I keep wondering if I didn't feel like I was busting my ass for this amount of money that I would feel better or be able to tell myself it's worth it. Is that just wishful thinking?

The answer to your question is no. It's just more money. If you are having that much trouble with 1880 hours I can't reccomend enough avoiding big law. You'll either get fired for billing 1880 hours or you'll be 2x miserable billing considerably more.

Lol what godawful firm do you work at that’s firing anyone right now for billing 1880 hours? 1600 looks bad but 1800 is fine.

Are people really billing 1880? I'm a corporate associate, but everyone I know is well north of 2k (at every firm I'm aware of). You would certainly get talked to if you came in at 1880 and likely wouldn't last more than a couple of years.

beyond burnt out. Likely going to leave - have been annualizing over 3100 hours for the last three months (my average annualized rate has been about 2.2-2.3k since I was a 1st year). Taking a step back at the moment and saying no to further work, doing just random things for clients at the moment. Am an upper tier associate (years 6-8 for context) and we're hemorrhaging people in my class year. Deciding if I want to leave now or wait until the second retention bonus and year end bonus, then leave. Lot of good opportunities now but also a lot of money on the table that could help me retire student loans.

Might try to leverage an offer, if I get one, for a larger bonus and/or see if the in-house place will match or make me whole (when I spoke to them a few years ago that was something they'd consider).

Either way, I'm exhausted and ready to quit.

No one gets fired for billing 1800 hours. Worst case scenario is you look bad and become disfavored in staffing decisions, but that's only going to be a problem when things slow down. At every firm there are plenty of associates who never hit 2000 but always act like they're super busy and get away with it for 6-8 years.

hdr wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:18 am

No one gets fired for billing 1800 hours. Worst case scenario is you look bad and become disfavored in staffing decisions, but that's only going to be a problem when things slow down. At every firm there are plenty of associates who never hit 2000 but always act like they're super busy and get away with it for 6-8 years.

Well, I feel like a sucker. Is everyone just lying to me about how much they work?

hdr wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:18 am

No one gets fired for billing 1800 hours. Worst case scenario is you look bad and become disfavored in staffing decisions, but that's only going to be a problem when things slow down. At every firm there are plenty of associates who never hit 2000 but always act like they're super busy and get away with it for 6-8 years.

While this may be true in normal times, comments like this ignore just how busy and dire V20 M&A/CapM groups are right now. The reason you could historically coast at ~1800 hours is because it wasn’t that far below the hours median. When the average hours pass 2,500 like they have at several firms (including for partners), lower hours are far more scrutinized and partners are def tracking hours more closely at my firm than in the past. I’ve also heard far more rumblings of associates getting told to pick up their hours this year than ever before to spread the burden. You might not actually get fired “until things slow down” but that could be as soon as January 2022 once the concern on the cap gains increase subsides and you might not be in good standing for a bonus before then.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:20 pm

Corp associate at a NY V5. So burnt out. Took a vacation recently but returning to work made me feel worse somehow. Probably will be looking at exit options soon. I know a lot of my fellow classmates are as well. We've been hemorrhaging mid-levels and even juniors without any fresh lateral blood. Ugh.

In the same boat. Came back from vacation this week and feel utter despair. Beyond burnt out. Have been interviewing, but the thought of doing this at another firm makes me pretty miserable too.

The mid-level associate on one of my deals just left the firm and the partner is in denial/won't staff/can't staff anyone else to take the associate's spot. So me, a fresh junior, is having to do so much work I have no idea how to do and making tons of mistakes and getting yelled at for stuff out of my control. So sick and tired of this already.

V20 firms almost never outright fire associates. Typically you need to be slow for several months (like billing ~100 hours/month) before getting the talk, and then you'll have at least another 3-6 months before being formally terminated. No one should be afraid to slack off while looking for a good exit option if the alternative is billing 250/month and being miserable.

And yes, lots of people lie about how much they work. It's a smart strategy.

Mullens wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:30 am

hdr wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:18 am

No one gets fired for billing 1800 hours. Worst case scenario is you look bad and become disfavored in staffing decisions, but that's only going to be a problem when things slow down. At every firm there are plenty of associates who never hit 2000 but always act like they're super busy and get away with it for 6-8 years.

While this may be true in normal times, comments like this ignore just how busy and dire V20 M&A/CapM groups are right now. The reason you could historically coast at ~1800 hours is because it wasn’t that far below the hours median. When the average hours pass 2,500 like they have at several firms (including for partners), lower hours are far more scrutinized and partners are def tracking hours more closely at my firm than in the past. I’ve also heard far more rumblings of associates getting told to pick up their hours this year than ever before to spread the burden. You might not actually get fired “until things slow down” but that could be as soon as January 2022 once the concern on the cap gains increase subsides and you might not be in good standing for a bonus before then.

Again, depends on where you work. No one at a V20 who does halfway decent work is being fired for billing 1800 hours, unless and until they hit an absolute ceiling of up-or-out and can’t be promoted - and that’s rarer and rarer these days, because almost everyone has a non-equity track of some sort, whether they are explicit about it or not.

The downside to being a low biller is honestly that you put yourself in the firing line for shit projects. Better to stay just north of 2000 so that you have some plausible deniability w/r/t being busy.

Mullens wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:30 am

hdr wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:18 am

No one gets fired for billing 1800 hours. Worst case scenario is you look bad and become disfavored in staffing decisions, but that's only going to be a problem when things slow down. At every firm there are plenty of associates who never hit 2000 but always act like they're super busy and get away with it for 6-8 years.

While this may be true in normal times, comments like this ignore just how busy and dire V20 M&A/CapM groups are right now. The reason you could historically coast at ~1800 hours is because it wasn’t that far below the hours median. When the average hours pass 2,500 like they have at several firms (including for partners), lower hours are far more scrutinized and partners are def tracking hours more closely at my firm than in the past. I’ve also heard far more rumblings of associates getting told to pick up their hours this year than ever before to spread the burden. You might not actually get fired “until things slow down” but that could be as soon as January 2022 once the concern on the cap gains increase subsides and you might not be in good standing for a bonus before then.

This is an interesting discussion. I lateraled from a regional biglaw firm to a V50 in New York about 2 months ago. 1800 was the minimum billable hours requirement at my previous firm, but if you billed in the 1600/1700 range (as long as your work product was solid), you would never get fired. At my current firm, I've been consistently billing 10-12 hour days since I started and coasting just doesnt seem like an option.

I'm definitely starting to feel burnt out. Just wanted associates in similar positions to know that you aren't alone and that many associates are struggling to keep up with the demands of Biglaw. Try to remain active, get enough sleep, take some breaks when you can (even if it means sending an email or document the next day), and don't let this job completely define who you are.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:20 pm

Corp associate at a NY V5. So burnt out. Took a vacation recently but returning to work made me feel worse somehow. Probably will be looking at exit options soon. I know a lot of my fellow classmates are as well. We've been hemorrhaging mid-levels and even juniors without any fresh lateral blood. Ugh.

Definitely connecting with all the sentiments about taking a vacation and when you're back you're basically despondent. Exact thing happened to me. Fourth year corporate on a team where so many people have left that you end up subbed onto deals with no context, going at full steam, and it's awful. A senior asked me to help on another deal and we had a pitiful conversation where I was like "I am falling apart with all these deals and really don't know if I could handle it, I'll end up in a padded room" and we ended up commiserating about how bananas things are.

OP of the 1880 post. To be clear, I am annualizing at that after my two leaves just recently, but before that it was 2200 and will likely end up there at the end of the year. I took the leaves because of burnout hence my posting here. Wishing you all some easier weeks and months ahead if you can't take time off like I was able to.

Interesting subsequent posts. I have heard of a handful of people lateraling to big law and essentially coasting or as I read in another thread "chilling and billing" in a big ass corporate department. There is someone at my firm who does it now in what I would consider to be a small corporate group and even when s/he gets staffed on deals, they are given the most basic, non-urgent tasks since partners know they can't rely on her/him to get anything more than that done. Not helpful at all. The same partners (all higher ups) have also said that said associate will likely be kept around until either economy has serious downturn (not just a cool off) or said associate becomes a 7th year. In short, it's very very hard to get fired from private practice.

3rd year checking in at NY V5. Have been billing 250+ for 2 months running and before that I was at 200+/month. I was slow in the beginning of the year, so my overall hours aren't even that impressive (on pace for 2300, probably). I'm officially burned.

No one gets fired for billing 1800 lol.