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Are there any firms that are notoriously bad to work at? Everyone hypes up Debevoise and some other places as having a notably good/collegial/healthy cultures. Are there well known corollaries?

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 06, 2021 1:31 pm

Are there any firms that are notoriously bad to work at? Everyone hypes up Debevoise and some other places as having a notably good/collegial/healthy cultures. Are there well known corollaries?

Cadwalader has a pretty notorious reputation for being a bad place to work.

It's almost always bad groups or bad people within firms, and not just a firm itself. Debevoise could be fantastic generally but each firm's going to have at least one bad apple, and if most of your work's for that person, you're SOL.

That said, as of a couple years ago, Cadwalader.

Really depends on your personality and then the practice group…even then there’s variance by partner. What person A loves in a firm might be what person B hates. So take everything with a little grain of salt.

That said, I’ve heard bad things out of Cleary cap markets, K&E NY generally, STB M&A, and a few others I’m forgetting. All of them you’re going to be worked hard. But at Cleary I’ve heard some people can be pretty condescending towards juniors. K&E the stereotype is that if you’re not a hyper-competitive person, you’re going to sink. And STB M&A that people are generally pretty stiff and they don’t give a fuck about your weekends (that’s definitely the case at many, many other firms).

Also heard rumors on here that at many firms, including Deb, that staffing partners will call you up and stuff you onto deals if you’re not on pace to bill like 2500+

anyone have an ideas about litigation in the DC market? which firms to outright avoid or which firms have worse reputations than all the others?

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:10 pm

anyone have an ideas about litigation in the DC market? which firms to outright avoid or which firms have worse reputations than all the others?

Quinn Emanuel is the only DC office I've heard affirmatively bad things about. It seems like a rougher environment for associates than most of its peers. Kellogg Hansen will reputedly work you to death but if you go there that's what you signed up for.

What's happened to TLS? Five replies and not *one* has said S&C!?

Any info for lit departments in NY?

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:10 pm

anyone have an ideas about litigation in the DC market? which firms to outright avoid or which firms have worse reputations than all the others?

Nixon Peabody dc. Quinn as well but for different reasons.

I've been with 3 or more firms now, and for most firms except for JD non-appellate lit, you'd feel like you can take the lead and ownership of a portion of a matter. However, at JD, you'd feel like an assistant and a second-class citizen to the partners, who'd take the lead and ownership of portions of a matter. You don't really get to do anything from scratch until you're really senior. It's really difficult to get substantive experience there.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:28 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:10 pm

anyone have an ideas about litigation in the DC market? which firms to outright avoid or which firms have worse reputations than all the others?

Nixon Peabody dc. Quinn as well but for different reasons.

Could you please elaborate?

Generalizing that request, could anyone providing responses about particular firm(s) PLEASE be as specific as possible about offices, groups, etc. and WHY they are "bad"? Some random opinion that a firm's culture is "bad" is pretty useless.

In litigation at least it will vary dramatically from partner to partner. There are partners in my office who are good to work for, relative to biglaw, and some who are awful. So I would hesitate to draw with a broad brush unless we are talking about small groups and/or groups dominated by one partner who is involved in every case. Only then will you really be sure to have the same sort of experience as someone else who worked there.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 06, 2021 3:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:28 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:10 pm

anyone have an ideas about litigation in the DC market? which firms to outright avoid or which firms have worse reputations than all the others?

Nixon Peabody dc. Quinn as well but for different reasons.

Could you please elaborate?

Generalizing that request, could anyone providing responses about particular firm(s) PLEASE be as specific as possible about offices, groups, etc. and WHY they are "bad"? Some random opinion that a firm's culture is "bad" is pretty useless.

Honestly no, because of the possibility for being outed. But what one should do is if you are considering a place that is listed, you should find former lawyers from those places and chat with them.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:23 pm

What's happened to TLS? Five replies and not *one* has said S&C!?

haha seems that people don't talk about S&C that much now, either good or bad.

I work at S&C corporate and I actually have a fairly good experience. For what it's worth, I can totally feel the difference between weekdays and weekends.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 06, 2021 10:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:23 pm

What's happened to TLS? Five replies and not *one* has said S&C!?

haha seems that people don't talk about S&C that much now, either good or bad.

I work at S&C corporate and I actually have a fairly good experience. For what it's worth, I can totally feel the difference between weekdays and weekends.

Would love to hear a bit more about your experience in gencorp if you are open to talking!

JiveTurkey wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 06, 2021 1:52 pm

That said, I’ve heard bad things out of Cleary cap markets,

Just curious what have you heard?

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 06, 2021 1:43 pm

Cadwalader has a pretty notorious reputation for being a bad place to work.

Is this still true?

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 07, 2021 12:37 am

JiveTurkey wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 06, 2021 1:52 pm

That said, I’ve heard bad things out of Cleary cap markets,

Just curious what have you heard?

That seniors/partners and even some staff are condescending towards juniors, it’s not as collegial as they advertise, and obviously the time commitment is difficult.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 07, 2021 12:44 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 06, 2021 1:43 pm

Cadwalader has a pretty notorious reputation for being a bad place to work.

Is this still true?

No, not so much anymore. A lot of that stems back to massive firings back in 2008 and some long gone screamers. Its general badness is more a meme than anything else especially since Cadwalader, maybe a bit more than a lot of firms, is actually really practice group dependent when it comes to QOL and culture. Biggest group is cap markets which imho is shit here or wherever you go, but a lot other groups like tax, lit, and restructuring are really great. Morale was pretty low at the beginning of the pandemic when salaries were cut, but they since made everyone whole with backpay. Plus offices and location in fidi are great.

Half of the senior associates in CWT cap markets have left in the past 4 months so I would just say that.

anyone know whats up with Kirkland chicago? generally doesn't have a great reputation and I'm just curious as to why.

lawanon9 wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:37 am

they since made everyone whole with backpay

I don't think that's exactly true, actually. They set an hours threshold for backpay, which a lot of cap markets associates didn't hit, in part because a lot of them were forced onto 6+ month secondments. As a result, many of them missed out on the back pay as well as all of last year's bonuses, which were also hours tested. Also, to get a full market bonus + special bonus last year you had to bill 2200 hours. All of this resulted in this:

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:52 am

Half of the senior associates in CWT cap markets have left in the past 4 months so I would just say that.

And a lot of people in other groups, too.

If the hours that I receive emails from CWT associates are any indication as to whether it's pleasant to work at, I would say it is not pleasant. Routinely receive emails from their cap markets team at 3 or 4 in the morning

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 07, 2021 12:16 pm

lawanon9 wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:37 am

they since made everyone whole with backpay

I don't think that's exactly true, actually. They set an hours threshold for backpay, which a lot of cap markets associates didn't hit, in part because a lot of them were forced onto 6+ month secondments. As a result, many of them missed out on the back pay as well as all of last year's bonuses, which were also hours tested. Also, to get a full market bonus + special bonus last year you had to bill 2200 hours. All of this resulted in this:

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:52 am

Half of the senior associates in CWT cap markets have left in the past 4 months so I would just say that.

And a lot of people in other groups, too.

Yeah, but the hours threshold for backpay was 1400, and in all other years years 2200 gets associate 1.2X bonuses, which is better than a lot of firms. The largest cap markets is pretty shitty, but other groups are not. Firm did increase equity partner class size substantially this year (reducing leverage), grew 5-10% in attorney headcount, and recruited some high profile people. If you're a cap markets person, steer clear, but if you are restructuring or lit or tax etc. I don't think it's fair at all to say the culture is generally bad. I think a lot of the bad press the firm as a whole gets is from cap markets specifically being bad, though I don't know why anyone would want to enter cap markets to begin with. Most of the complaints here and elsewhere are about capital markets, and while this is a big part of the firm, it still comprises a minority of attorneys at the firm and is far from the only practice group associates go into.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:41 pm

Honestly no, because of the possibility for being outed.

Then at least acknowledge that. But when both the source of the judgment (firsthand? secondhand?) and its substance are unknown, you may as well not post it at all.