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NYC GenCorp Hierarchy
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:54 am
by Anonymous User
WLRK stands alone at the top but how are the other elite NYC shops (CSM, PW, S&C, DPW, STB, Debevoise) and the mega firms (K&E, LW, Skadden) viewed on the corporate side of things?
Re: NYC GenCorp Hierarchy
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:23 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:54 am
WLRK stands alone at the top but how are the other elite NYC shops (CSM, PW, S&C, DPW, STB, Debevoise) and the mega firms (K&E, LW, Skadden) viewed on the corporate side of things?
It depends on the specific practice area and industry. As much as people here like to paint with a broad brush, it doesn't work that way.
Re: NYC GenCorp Hierarchy
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:59 am
by Anonymous User
There’s a well-regarded site (chambers.com) that does exactly this, at a professional level. I doubt anybody at TLS will be able to improve on that, unless you are looking for something more niche.
Re: NYC GenCorp Hierarchy
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 9:49 am
by Anonymous User
Agreed. Take a look at Chambers. For M&A, I would also look at Mergermarket league tables.
Re: NYC GenCorp Hierarchy
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:28 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:54 am
WLRK stands alone at the top but how are the other elite NYC shops (CSM, PW, S&C, DPW, STB, Debevoise) and the mega firms (K&E, LW, Skadden) viewed on the corporate side of things?
NY V10 associate here. In broad strokes, I think the tiers are something like:
WLRK > CSM/DPW/Skadden/SullCrom/STB > Debevoise/Cleary/K&E/LW/PW
WLRK stands above the rest as you noted, but I think that's largely based on their M&A prowess and the gap with the next tier for general corp isn't actually that wide. Other shops have stronger finance, restructuring, cap markets, tax, and other corporate practices (not to mention, some are close to WLRK's level in M&A). PW is an up-and-comer and they do great work but I'd say they're still not quite at the elite NY level yet bc their group is still somewhat new. Give them a few years tho. I also think Skadden is generally considered better than the other mega shops and should be grouped with the other NY elites (as its M&A, CM, tax and other groups are considered top tier, at least in their NY office).
Re: NYC GenCorp Hierarchy
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 12:24 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:28 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:54 am
WLRK stands alone at the top but how are the other elite NYC shops (CSM, PW, S&C, DPW, STB, Debevoise) and the mega firms (K&E, LW, Skadden) viewed on the corporate side of things?
NY V10 associate here. In broad strokes, I think the tiers are something like:
WLRK > CSM/DPW/Skadden/SullCrom/STB > Debevoise/Cleary/K&E/LW/PW
WLRK stands above the rest as you noted, but I think that's largely based on their M&A prowess and the gap with the next tier for general corp isn't actually that wide. Other shops have stronger finance, restructuring, cap markets, tax, and other corporate practices (not to mention, some are close to WLRK's level in M&A).
PW is an up-and-comer and they do great work but I'd say they're still not quite at the elite NY level yet bc their group is still somewhat new. Give them a few years tho. I also think Skadden is generally considered better than the other mega shops and should be grouped with the other NY elites (as its M&A, CM, tax and other groups are considered top tier, at least in their NY office).
I realize this is off-topic, but since the previous anon brought up Paul Weiss . . . what do people think of that long piece Business Insider published about the Apollo-PW relationship?
https://outline.com/mBRcDa
Is working for mega-PE shops truly as terrible as the article suggests?
Re: NYC GenCorp Hierarchy
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:23 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:28 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:54 am
WLRK stands alone at the top but how are the other elite NYC shops (CSM, PW, S&C, DPW, STB, Debevoise) and the mega firms (K&E, LW, Skadden) viewed on the corporate side of things?
NY V10 associate here. In broad strokes, I think the tiers are something like:
WLRK > CSM/DPW/Skadden/SullCrom/STB > Debevoise/Cleary/K&E/LW/PW
WLRK stands above the rest as you noted, but I think that's largely based on their M&A prowess and the gap with the next tier for general corp isn't actually that wide. Other shops have stronger finance, restructuring, cap markets, tax, and other corporate practices (not to mention, some are close to WLRK's level in M&A). PW is an up-and-comer and they do great work but I'd say they're still not quite at the elite NY level yet bc their group is still somewhat new. Give them a few years tho. I also think Skadden is generally considered better than the other mega shops and should be grouped with the other NY elites (as its M&A, CM, tax and other groups are considered top tier, at least in their NY office).
Would you be willing to go off anon? I'd love to talk through some more personal process related stuff that would otherwise dox me a bit
Re: NYC GenCorp Hierarchy
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:46 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:28 am
WLRK stands above the rest as you noted, but I think that's largely based on their M&A prowess and the gap with the next tier for general corp isn't actually that wide. Other shops have stronger finance, restructuring, cap markets, tax, and other corporate practices (not to mention, some are close to WLRK's level in M&A).
WLRK doesn't do (or seek out) much standalone capital markets work. Its tax team, like its ECB team, supports its transactional practice. The restructuring group is small, exclusively creditor-side, and well-regarded. It does not do funds work.
Re: NYC GenCorp Hierarchy
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:24 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:28 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:54 am
WLRK stands alone at the top but how are the other elite NYC shops (CSM, PW, S&C, DPW, STB, Debevoise) and the mega firms (K&E, LW, Skadden) viewed on the corporate side of things?
NY V10 associate here. In broad strokes, I think the tiers are something like:
WLRK > CSM/DPW/Skadden/SullCrom/STB > Debevoise/Cleary/K&E/LW/PW
WLRK stands above the rest as you noted, but I think that's largely based on their M&A prowess and the gap with the next tier for general corp isn't actually that wide. Other shops have stronger finance, restructuring, cap markets, tax, and other corporate practices (not to mention, some are close to WLRK's level in M&A). PW is an up-and-comer and they do great work but I'd say they're still not quite at the elite NY level yet bc their group is still somewhat new. Give them a few years tho. I also think Skadden is generally considered better than the other mega shops and should be grouped with the other NY elites (as its M&A, CM, tax and other groups are considered top tier, at least in their NY office).
NY V10 associate. Surprised at third tier. K&E, LW, K&E, Debevoise, but not Weil? See them around more than the other shops. Chambers also has them on par with K&E and LW in corporate groups.
Re: NYC GenCorp Hierarchy
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:45 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:24 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:28 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:54 am
WLRK stands alone at the top but how are the other elite NYC shops (CSM, PW, S&C, DPW, STB, Debevoise) and the mega firms (K&E, LW, Skadden) viewed on the corporate side of things?
NY V10 associate here. In broad strokes, I think the tiers are something like:
WLRK > CSM/DPW/Skadden/SullCrom/STB > Debevoise/Cleary/K&E/LW/PW
WLRK stands above the rest as you noted, but I think that's largely based on their M&A prowess and the gap with the next tier for general corp isn't actually that wide. Other shops have stronger finance, restructuring, cap markets, tax, and other corporate practices (not to mention, some are close to WLRK's level in M&A). PW is an up-and-comer and they do great work but I'd say they're still not quite at the elite NY level yet bc their group is still somewhat new. Give them a few years tho. I also think Skadden is generally considered better than the other mega shops and should be grouped with the other NY elites (as its M&A, CM, tax and other groups are considered top tier, at least in their NY office).
NY V10 associate. Surprised at third tier. K&E, LW, K&E, Debevoise, but not Weil? See them around more than the other shops. Chambers also has them on par with K&E and LW in corporate groups.
It's because poster's list is inaccurate, about 6 years outdated. Probably closer to:
WLRK > CSM/DPW/Skadden/SullCrom > K&E/LW/PW/STB > Debevoise/Cleary/Weil
Chambers supports the above tiering, both NY and nationwide, except LW, which gets dinged a bit in NY-specific rankings but IMHO they're in the same circle.
Re: NYC GenCorp Hierarchy
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:03 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:45 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:24 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:28 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:54 am
WLRK stands alone at the top but how are the other elite NYC shops (CSM, PW, S&C, DPW, STB, Debevoise) and the mega firms (K&E, LW, Skadden) viewed on the corporate side of things?
NY V10 associate here. In broad strokes, I think the tiers are something like:
WLRK > CSM/DPW/Skadden/SullCrom/STB > Debevoise/Cleary/K&E/LW/PW
WLRK stands above the rest as you noted, but I think that's largely based on their M&A prowess and the gap with the next tier for general corp isn't actually that wide. Other shops have stronger finance, restructuring, cap markets, tax, and other corporate practices (not to mention, some are close to WLRK's level in M&A). PW is an up-and-comer and they do great work but I'd say they're still not quite at the elite NY level yet bc their group is still somewhat new. Give them a few years tho. I also think Skadden is generally considered better than the other mega shops and should be grouped with the other NY elites (as its M&A, CM, tax and other groups are considered top tier, at least in their NY office).
NY V10 associate. Surprised at third tier. K&E, LW, K&E, Debevoise, but not Weil? See them around more than the other shops. Chambers also has them on par with K&E and LW in corporate groups.
It's because poster's list is inaccurate, about 6 years outdated. Probably closer to:
WLRK > CSM/DPW/Skadden/SullCrom > K&E/LW/PW/STB > Debevoise/Cleary/Weil
Chambers supports the above tiering, both NY and nationwide, except LW, which gets dinged a bit in NY-specific rankings but IMHO they're in the same circle.
Agree with this.
Re: NYC GenCorp Hierarchy
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 5:54 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:03 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:45 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:24 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:28 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:54 am
WLRK stands alone at the top but how are the other elite NYC shops (CSM, PW, S&C, DPW, STB, Debevoise) and the mega firms (K&E, LW, Skadden) viewed on the corporate side of things?
NY V10 associate here. In broad strokes, I think the tiers are something like:
WLRK > CSM/DPW/Skadden/SullCrom/STB > Debevoise/Cleary/K&E/LW/PW
WLRK stands above the rest as you noted, but I think that's largely based on their M&A prowess and the gap with the next tier for general corp isn't actually that wide. Other shops have stronger finance, restructuring, cap markets, tax, and other corporate practices (not to mention, some are close to WLRK's level in M&A). PW is an up-and-comer and they do great work but I'd say they're still not quite at the elite NY level yet bc their group is still somewhat new. Give them a few years tho. I also think Skadden is generally considered better than the other mega shops and should be grouped with the other NY elites (as its M&A, CM, tax and other groups are considered top tier, at least in their NY office).
NY V10 associate. Surprised at third tier. K&E, LW, K&E, Debevoise, but not Weil? See them around more than the other shops. Chambers also has them on par with K&E and LW in corporate groups.
It's because poster's list is inaccurate, about 6 years outdated. Probably closer to:
WLRK > CSM/DPW/Skadden/SullCrom > K&E/LW/PW/STB > Debevoise/Cleary/Weil
Chambers supports the above tiering, both NY and nationwide, except LW, which gets dinged a bit in NY-specific rankings but IMHO they're in the same circle.
Agree with this.
In NYC, I don't think PW, K&E, and LW are higher-tier shops than Weil and Cleary for corporate.
Re: NYC GenCorp Hierarchy
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 6:10 pm
by Anonymous User
Is the difference between these firms outside of WLRK negligible? I swear I feel good about a firm I like and then I read this and I’m like damn what?
Talking specifically about Cleary/Deb. Have some options between the DPW/STB area and those as well as the big shops
Re: NYC GenCorp Hierarchy
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:08 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 6:10 pm
Is the difference between these firms outside of WLRK negligible? I swear I feel good about a firm I like and then I read this and I’m like damn what?
Talking specifically about Cleary/Deb. Have some options between the DPW/STB area and those as well as the big shops
Midlevel corp at one of the firms mentioned above. I'll be honest, I don't get the sense that lawyers at these firms really spend much time thinking about their relative prestige vis-a-vis other top NY shops. By and large, competence varies by lawyer not by firm. I would focus more on the type of work that you want to do and whether you think you'd be a good fit. Even comparing these firms directly is a little misleading. There's a pretty big difference in the types of clients that a STB, Deb or PW represents (largely private equity) versus a WLRK, SASMF or Cravath (more mega-corporates). Those deals are actually fairly different.
Re: NYC GenCorp Hierarchy
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:50 pm
by Anonymous User
Where does S&C fit into the break down in terms of work?
Re: NYC GenCorp Hierarchy
Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:20 am
by Sackboy
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 6:10 pm
Is the difference between these firms outside of WLRK negligible? I swear I feel good about a firm I like and then I read this and I’m like damn what?
Talking specifically about Cleary/Deb. Have some options between the DPW/STB area and those as well as the big shops
Yes. The differences are marginal, and some posters on here refuse to put LW and KE in tier 1 with the old white shoe shops because of preffffftige despite Chambers recognizing both firms as Band 1 in elite M&A. A lot of advice on this board clings to some NY hierarchy that was true a decade ago, and it's mostly useless beyond figuring out if a group has toxic personalities or what type of work a group generally does. The rankings of actual firms/groups is pretty shit outside of clear #1 situations like WLRK in M&A, Weil/KE in debtor BK, DPW in CM, etc.
Re: NYC GenCorp Hierarchy
Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 2:57 pm
by Anonymous User
Anyone have a hierarchy for banking/cap markets?
I know STB is up there as well as Latham. Not sure about the others. Would it be a huge mistake to go to Deb or Weil over a Latham for banking?
Re: NYC GenCorp Hierarchy
Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 3:37 pm
by Arca9
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 2:57 pm
Anyone have a hierarchy for banking/cap markets?
I know STB is up there as well as Latham. Not sure about the others. Would it be a huge mistake to go to Deb or Weil over a Latham for banking?
Can't speak for cap markets, but from my experience with banking, Cahill/DPW are the go-to for lender-side and K&E/STB for sponsor-side. I don't see LW as much, but my understanding is their banking practice is also supposed to be top-tier as well.
Re: NYC GenCorp Hierarchy
Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 5:35 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 12:24 pm
I realize this is off-topic, but since the previous anon brought up Paul Weiss . . . what do people think of that long piece Business Insider published about the Apollo-PW relationship?
https://outline.com/mBRcDa
Is working for mega-PE shops truly as terrible as the article suggests?
Bump
Re: NYC GenCorp Hierarchy
Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:29 pm
by Anonymous User
Sackboy wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:20 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 6:10 pm
Is the difference between these firms outside of WLRK negligible? I swear I feel good about a firm I like and then I read this and I’m like damn what?
Talking specifically about Cleary/Deb. Have some options between the DPW/STB area and those as well as the big shops
Yes. The differences are marginal, and some posters on here refuse to put LW and KE in tier 1 with the old white shoe shops because of preffffftige despite Chambers recognizing both firms as Band 1 in elite M&A. A lot of advice on this board clings to some NY hierarchy that was true a decade ago, and it's mostly useless beyond figuring out if a group has toxic personalities or what type of work a group generally does. The rankings of actual firms/groups is pretty shit outside of clear #1 situations like WLRK in M&A, Weil/KE in debtor BK, DPW in CM, etc.
+1
LW was recognized as the top firm in Capital Markets and M&A by Chambers, and KE regularly pays above market and has a premier PE practice but muh preftigeeee
Re: NYC GenCorp Hierarchy
Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:56 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 2:57 pm
Anyone have a hierarchy for banking/cap markets?
I know STB is up there as well as Latham. Not sure about the others. Would it be a huge mistake to go to Deb or Weil over a Latham for banking?
No. Weil has a strong banking group that is actually pretty diversified. Great culture too. Certainly couldn't go wrong with Latham, either, but I wouldn't call it a mistake.
Re: NYC GenCorp Hierarchy
Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:34 pm
by Anonymous User
Would it be a mistake to go Deb over S&C with general corp interests that skew M&A or cap markets
Re: NYC GenCorp Hierarchy
Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:52 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:56 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 2:57 pm
Anyone have a hierarchy for banking/cap markets?
I know STB is up there as well as Latham. Not sure about the others. Would it be a huge mistake to go to Deb or Weil over a Latham for banking?
No. Weil has a strong banking group that is actually pretty diversified. Great culture too. Certainly couldn't go wrong with Latham, either, but I wouldn't call it a mistake.
LW is one of the top banking shops but weil has pretty solid banking practice as well according to chambers
https://chambers.com/legal-rankings/ban ... :6:12806:1
https://chambers.com/legal-rankings/ban ... :6:12788:1
Capital markets wise you can also check chambers - I think its the same situation, LW is one of the top shops, but weil is also pretty good. if you have legit reasons to believe Weil is a better fit, go for it
Re: NYC GenCorp Hierarchy
Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 4:12 am
by Sackboy
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:34 pm
Would it be a mistake to go Deb over S&C with general corp interests that skew M&A or cap markets
Your life will turn out OK.
Re: NYC GenCorp Hierarchy
Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 10:31 am
by Anonymous User
Sackboy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 06, 2021 4:12 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:34 pm
Would it be a mistake to go Deb over S&C with general corp interests that skew M&A or cap markets
Your life will turn out OK.
Def in a very fortunate position - will absolutely acknowledge that! But both firms seemed pretty great during interviews but Deb has the "polite" rep and S&C seems to have a little more negative reputation online, which scares me a little. Honestly liked the people at S&C a bit more but the rep is making me second guess that.