Top Law Schools

I'm a senior associate at a V10. The last time I paid to Vault rankings was in law school. Given all this chatter about Milbank moving up, etc., I got curious and took a look.

What the hell happened?? Back in my day, Wachtell was firmly firmly No. 1 (they even advertised that at career fairs and OCI receptions), followed by Cravath. How on earth did they fall to No. 3??

More interestingly, how the hell did Skadden cop No. 2?? They're a great firm and all but ranking above Wachtell seems out there.

Before you say it, I know Vault doesn't really matter in practice, but it does matter to law students. Guess Skadden had really good internal messaging about completing the Vault survey and Wachtell didn't (or their associates didn't have the time).

Anyone have any insights on these interesting Vault developments?

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:19 am

Anyone have any insights on these interesting Vault developments?

Yes. Vault is dumb. Resume not paying attention to it.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:19 am

I'm a senior associate at a V10. The last time I paid to Vault rankings was in law school. Given all this chatter about Milbank moving up, etc., I got curious and took a look.

What the hell happened?? Back in my day, Wachtell was firmly firmly No. 1 (they even advertised that at career fairs and OCI receptions), followed by Cravath. How on earth did they fall to No. 3??

More interestingly, how the hell did Skadden cop No. 2?? They're a great firm and all but ranking above Wachtell seems out there.

Before you say it, I know Vault doesn't really matter in practice, but it does matter to law students. Guess Skadden had really good internal messaging about completing the Vault survey and Wachtell didn't (or their associates didn't have the time).

Anyone have any insights on these interesting Vault developments?

Two things.

(1) Yes, Vault matters to law students, but I promise there are exactly 0 students choosing Skadden over Wachtell because it’s V2 versus V3.

(2) “internal messaging” is irrelevant because associates are not allowed to rate their own firms.

Good firms with larger physical footprints do better in vault because more people have heard of them. That is why Skadden, Latham and Kirkland are highly ranked.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:57 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:19 am

I'm a senior associate at a V10. The last time I paid to Vault rankings was in law school. Given all this chatter about Milbank moving up, etc., I got curious and took a look.

What the hell happened?? Back in my day, Wachtell was firmly firmly No. 1 (they even advertised that at career fairs and OCI receptions), followed by Cravath. How on earth did they fall to No. 3??

More interestingly, how the hell did Skadden cop No. 2?? They're a great firm and all but ranking above Wachtell seems out there.

Before you say it, I know Vault doesn't really matter in practice, but it does matter to law students. Guess Skadden had really good internal messaging about completing the Vault survey and Wachtell didn't (or their associates didn't have the time).

Anyone have any insights on these interesting Vault developments?

Two things.

(1) Yes, Vault matters to law students, but I promise there are exactly 0 students choosing Skadden over Wachtell because it’s V2 versus V3.

(2) “internal messaging” is irrelevant because associates are not allowed to rate their own firms.

True, but I think plenty of law students might choose Skadden over say, Latham or DPW or Simpson (which is not to say that's the wrong choice at all--they are all fine firms and each will work you just hard as the next one). Just think it's interesting that Skadden somehow edged past Wachtell. Wonder how it will be this year.

At my V10 there was definitely a push by recruiting to get in our Vault surveys in time. I never do it so didn't know. Why would my firm push us to do it if it didn't matter for us?

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:39 am

True, but I think plenty of law students might choose Skadden over say, Latham or DPW or Simpson (which is not to say that's the wrong choice at all--they are all fine firms and each will work you just hard as the next one). Just think it's interesting that Skadden somehow edged past Wachtell. Wonder how it will be this year.

At my V10 there was definitely a push by recruiting to get in our Vault surveys in time. I never do it so didn't know. Why would my firm push us to do it if it didn't matter for us?

IDK, at my T6 law school, students were cognizant of Vault but within certain tiers of firm, I don’t think it was a major factor in people’s decision-making. The kind of students that landed multiple V10 offers were typically sophisticated enough to actually diligence the firms and form their own POV on what would be the best fit. Students were still prestige-driven but relied on institutional knowledge and/or prestige hierarchies that were extrinsic to Vault. Hence a lot of people clamoring for DPW/STB despite those firms being “lower” than K&E/Latham.

Associates rank their own firms on the “ancillary” Vault metrics (Firm Culture, Career Outlook, etc.), which is why recruiting still has a vested interest in people getting it done. But that shouldn’t affect the main Vault ranking (aka the prestige ranking).

I agree that most V10-quality law students tend to view NY firms in rough tiers, including my peers when I was a law student at a T-10. But agree that the large geographic footprint is probs what pushed Skadden over the edge over Wachtell. I disagree with that ranking, but I don't find it that absurd since Skadden is clearly elite as well.

I think the general consensus among NY lawyers is something like the following:
Wachtell > Cravath/Skadden/S&C/DPW/STB/PW > Cleary > Kirkland/Latham/Gibson > Weil/Debevoise

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:29 am

I agree that most V10-quality law students tend to view NY firms in rough tiers, including my peers when I was a law student at a T-10. But agree that the large geographic footprint is probs what pushed Skadden over the edge over Wachtell. I disagree with that ranking, but I don't find it that absurd since Skadden is clearly elite as well.

I think the general consensus among NY lawyers is something like the following:
Wachtell > Cravath/Skadden/S&C/DPW/STB/PW > Cleary > Kirkland/Latham/Gibson > Weil/Debevoise

I would say the consensus somewhat shifted to the following (at least in corporate): Wachtell > Cravath/S&C/DPW > Skadden/STB/PW/Cleary/Kirkland/Latham > Gibson/Weil/Debevoise

2013 wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:16 am

Good firms with larger physical footprints do better in vault because more people have heard of them. That is why Skadden, Latham and Kirkland are highly ranked.

Sure, bigger firms benefit, but also Skadden, Latham, and Kirkland are all highly ranked because they have insane PPP and RPL, like the rest of the tippy top firms.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:29 am

I agree that most V10-quality law students tend to view NY firms in rough tiers, including my peers when I was a law student at a T-10. But agree that the large geographic footprint is probs what pushed Skadden over the edge over Wachtell. I disagree with that ranking, but I don't find it that absurd since Skadden is clearly elite as well.

No one is saying Skadden isn't a fine firm. What is being said is that you would be crazy to think it is on the same level as Wachtell.

The geographic argument also doesn't make a ton of sense here because one-domestic-office Cravath is ranked 1. People know Cravath because of the "Cravath scale," though, which indicates that a lot of people filling out the survey are clearly just oblivious to Wachtell's stature.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:41 am

I would say the consensus somewhat shifted to the following (at least in corporate): Wachtell > Cravath/S&C/DPW > Skadden/STB/PW/Cleary/Kirkland/Latham > Gibson/Weil/Debevoise

I agree with this

2013 wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:16 am

Good firms with larger physical footprints do better in vault because more people have heard of them. That is why Skadden, Latham and Kirkland are highly ranked.

Exactly. If you've ever filled out the vault survey, it's just a massive list of firms that random associates rank from 1 to 10 in terms of prestige. There's the usual v100 suspects, plus a bunch of other NLJ250ish firms that you may not have heard of.

As such, the vault survey tends to reward scale. Nobody is going to rank a firm highly that they haven't heard of or aren't familiar with. You'll sometimes find super elite boutiques way down the vault scale because there are a bunch of junior associates who don't know what they are. By contrast, most people in biglaw have had dealings with firms like Skadden, Latham, and Jones Day and therefore tend to over-rank them.

I also note that the difference between the very top firms is tiny in terms of absolute rankings. The difference between v1 and v3 may be .2 points on the survey. Some of that is just statistical noise.

Vault is really no different from USNWR. The top firms/schools are still the top regardless of what some publication ranks them. If USNWR randomly bumped Yale down to #20, that alone wouldn't change the fact that Yale is certainly among the very top schools. Likewise, if vault randomly made Wachtel a v50 firm, it wouldn't' change the fact that it is handling some of the biggest deals. Clients don't really care much about vault rankings.

Too bad about the timing. Milbank deserves to be top 15.

lolwutpar wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:19 pm

Too bad about the timing. Milbank deserves to be top 15.

It would have to muscle out one of Covington, Cleary, Quinn, Weil or Sidley, and leapfrog Deb and Ropes. I get that the more prolific posters here care only about comp but there are other factors at play for vault.

I'm also not sure the physical footprint theory holds--if vault really rewarded physical footprint that much, places like Dentons, Mayer and Baker would rank more highly than they do.

dyemond wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:06 pm

lolwutpar wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:19 pm

Too bad about the timing. Milbank deserves to be top 15.

It would have to muscle out one of Covington, Cleary, Quinn, Weil or Sidley, and leapfrog Deb and Ropes. I get that the more prolific posters here care only about comp but there are other factors at play for vault.

I'm also not sure the physical footprint theory holds--if vault really rewarded physical footprint that much, places like Dentons, Mayer and Baker would rank more highly than they do.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:19 am

I'm a senior associate at a V10. The last time I paid to Vault rankings was in law school.

Obviously you still pay attention to vault since you started the post by saying you were at a V10

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:41 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:29 am

I agree that most V10-quality law students tend to view NY firms in rough tiers, including my peers when I was a law student at a T-10. But agree that the large geographic footprint is probs what pushed Skadden over the edge over Wachtell. I disagree with that ranking, but I don't find it that absurd since Skadden is clearly elite as well.

I think the general consensus among NY lawyers is something like the following:
Wachtell > Cravath/Skadden/S&C/DPW/STB/PW > Cleary > Kirkland/Latham/Gibson > Weil/Debevoise

I would say the consensus somewhat shifted to the following (at least in corporate): Wachtell > Cravath/S&C/DPW > Skadden/STB/PW/Cleary/Kirkland/Latham > Gibson/Weil/Debevoise

It’s more like Wachtell > CSM/S&C/DPW/Simpson > Cleary > P, W/Debevoise/Skadden > Kirkland/Latham/Weil/Gibson for NY corporate at my T6.

Debevoise and Cleary are extremely school snobby firms and that is rewarded at top schools. Nobody wants to socialize with the riffraff.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:57 pm

It’s more like Wachtell > CSM/S&C/DPW/Simpson > Cleary > P, W/Debevoise/Skadden > Kirkland/Latham/Weil/Gibson for NY corporate at my T6.

Debevoise and Cleary are extremely school snobby firms and that is rewarded at top schools. Nobody wants to socialize with the riffraff.

It is funny to me how obvious it is that Cleary would much rather take a median — or even slightly below median — kid at NYU/CLS, rather than (god forbid) scooping up somebody in the top 10-15% at Fordham. I think their summer class numbers would bear that out.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:41 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:29 am

I agree that most V10-quality law students tend to view NY firms in rough tiers, including my peers when I was a law student at a T-10. But agree that the large geographic footprint is probs what pushed Skadden over the edge over Wachtell. I disagree with that ranking, but I don't find it that absurd since Skadden is clearly elite as well.

I think the general consensus among NY lawyers is something like the following:
Wachtell > Cravath/Skadden/S&C/DPW/STB/PW > Cleary > Kirkland/Latham/Gibson > Weil/Debevoise

I would say the consensus somewhat shifted to the following (at least in corporate): Wachtell > Cravath/S&C/DPW > Skadden/STB/PW/Cleary/Kirkland/Latham > Gibson/Weil/Debevoise

It’s more like Wachtell > CSM/S&C/DPW/Simpson > Cleary > P, W/Debevoise/Skadden > Kirkland/Latham/Weil/Gibson for NY corporate at my T6.

Debevoise and Cleary are extremely school snobby firms and that is rewarded at top schools. Nobody wants to socialize with the riffraff.

I agree with this. Cleary and Debevoise are very strong NYC firms and seem to be more sought after than the KE and Latham type at my T6, but not quite at the STB/Cravath/etc. level.

Regardless, Vault rankings are trash. Use Chambers.

wldecisions wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:24 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:41 am

I would say the consensus somewhat shifted to the following (at least in corporate): Wachtell > Cravath/S&C/DPW > Skadden/STB/PW/Cleary/Kirkland/Latham > Gibson/Weil/Debevoise

I agree with this

I think this is interesting. What do the groupings look like as you keep moving down through the ~V100ish (assuming NYC corporate focus as a baseline)?

Definitely Not North wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:06 pm

wldecisions wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:24 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:41 am

I would say the consensus somewhat shifted to the following (at least in corporate): Wachtell > Cravath/S&C/DPW > Skadden/STB/PW/Cleary/Kirkland/Latham > Gibson/Weil/Debevoise

I agree with this

I think this is interesting. What do the groupings look like as you keep moving down through the ~V100ish (assuming NYC corporate focus as a baseline)?

Not a thing

cheaptilts wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:21 pm

Definitely Not North wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:06 pm

wldecisions wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:24 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:41 am

I would say the consensus somewhat shifted to the following (at least in corporate): Wachtell > Cravath/S&C/DPW > Skadden/STB/PW/Cleary/Kirkland/Latham > Gibson/Weil/Debevoise

I agree with this

I think this is interesting. What do the groupings look like as you keep moving down through the ~V100ish (assuming NYC corporate focus as a baseline)?

Not a thing

It's bad assumptions like that one that leads me to tearing my hair out trying to convince people to ignore Vault. It's so, so worthless, and I'm convinced that there are swathes of low-info law students who make bad decisions based on it.

It's a survey that uses black box methodology to assign rankings of the ill-defined notion of "prestige" based on the rushed, uninformed, and uncaring opinions of people whose opinions don't matter very much. Who even decided that this garbage was worth paying attention to? It's not like it has some storied history, it's only been around for ~20 years.

ExpOriental wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:50 pm

cheaptilts wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:21 pm

Definitely Not North wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:06 pm

wldecisions wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:24 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:41 am

I would say the consensus somewhat shifted to the following (at least in corporate): Wachtell > Cravath/S&C/DPW > Skadden/STB/PW/Cleary/Kirkland/Latham > Gibson/Weil/Debevoise

I agree with this

I think this is interesting. What do the groupings look like as you keep moving down through the ~V100ish (assuming NYC corporate focus as a baseline)?

Not a thing

It's bad assumptions like that one that leads me to tearing my hair out trying to convince people to ignore Vault. It's so, so worthless, and I'm convinced that there are swathes of low-info law students who make bad decisions based on it.

It's a survey that uses black box methodology to assign rankings of the ill-defined notion of "prestige" based on the rushed, uninformed, and uncaring opinions of people whose opinions don't matter very much. Who even decided that this garbage was worth paying attention to? It's not like it has some storied history, it's only been around for ~20 years.

Eh, it may be flawed, but the V50 (or V20) are pretty much the top 50 (or 20) firms you'd want to work at. Kind of a wisdom of crowds thing.

I'll keep believing in Vault until Wachtell falls out of V10. Until then, it's as good a proxy as any for 1Ls.

IIRC, something called "Paul Hastings" has been V25 for the past decade.

Even if you haven't looked at them for a while, you should know they're flawed.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:10 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:57 pm

It’s more like Wachtell > CSM/S&C/DPW/Simpson > Cleary > P, W/Debevoise/Skadden > Kirkland/Latham/Weil/Gibson for NY corporate at my T6.

Debevoise and Cleary are extremely school snobby firms and that is rewarded at top schools. Nobody wants to socialize with the riffraff.

It is funny to me how obvious it is that Cleary would much rather take a median — or even slightly below median — kid at NYU/CLS, rather than (god forbid) scooping up somebody in the top 10-15% at Fordham. I think their summer class numbers would bear that out.

No, no, you are deeply mistaken. Median at NYU is not getting Debevoise or Cleary. Those firms generally hire only top 10% from NYU.