STL/KC Raises Forum

[Anonymous User]

Anyone hear anything about comp movement in these markets? I saw Polsinelli announced a bump to 170 or so (which is a fucking massive increase) but the details are kinda weird and I don’t know that it’ll get other firms to budge. Figured I’d start this thread to keep track of any announcements.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Just realized this thread got triple posted (no clue how that happened).

Mods, please feel free to delete the other two.

[2013]

NRF said it would move its small market (STL/Minneapolis) scale.

[Anonymous User]

NRF said it would move its small market (STL/Minneapolis) scale.

I saw they were increasing for some offices, but I thought the smaller markets were still up in the air. Curious to see how big the bumps are.

[Anonymous User]

.

[Anonymous User]

BCLP raised effective July 1 (Polsinelli isn't effective until fall 2022 lol). Key BCLP change is huge new bonus structure. They were already way outpacing the market if you billed decently but now just destroy it with bonuses of up to 100k - 150k for 2100-2300, inclusive of pro bono and certain firm requested non billable hours. This is the way it should be handled in secondary markets, where it doesn't make sense to have huge base salaries but associates should absolutely be PAID for billing 2k+.

Woah! Source?

[Anonymous User]

BCLP (St. Louis office) bonus for 2300 is 90k now. I read the memo too fast and it confused my simple mind. Still well outpacing the market.

New salaries in effect July 1.

[Anonymous User]

BCLP raised effective July 1 (Polsinelli isn't effective until fall 2022 lol). Key BCLP change is huge new bonus structure. They were already way outpacing the market if you billed decently but now just destroy it with bonuses of up to 100k - 150k for 2100-2300, inclusive of pro bono and certain firm requested non billable hours. This is the way it should be handled in secondary markets, where it doesn't make sense to have huge base salaries but associates should absolutely be PAID for billing 2k+.

Is BCLP's change only to bonuses, or is there an increase in base salary as well?

[Anonymous User]

BCLP (St. Louis office) bonus for 2300 is 90k now. I read the memo too fast and it confused my simple mind. Still well outpacing the market.

New salaries in effect July 1.

What’s the new base salary?

[Anonymous User]

BCLP (St. Louis office) bonus for 2300 is 90k now. I read the memo too fast and it confused my simple mind. Still well outpacing the market.

New salaries in effect July 1.

What’s the new base salary?

170

[Anonymous User]

BCLP (St. Louis office) bonus for 2300 is 90k now. I read the memo too fast and it confused my simple mind. Still well outpacing the market.

New salaries in effect July 1.

What’s the new base salary?

170

These are some massive increases. But I guess it’s on pace with the historic gap between NYC and Midwest wages. STL/KC have been seriously lagging for the past few years.

[Anonymous User]

BCLP (St. Louis office) bonus for 2300 is 90k now. I read the memo too fast and it confused my simple mind. Still well outpacing the market.

New salaries in effect July 1.

What’s the new base salary?

170

These are some massive increases. But I guess it’s on pace with the historic gap between NYC and Midwest wages. STL/KC have been seriously lagging for the past few years.

Yeah this is huge. I wonder how widely this will be matched.

[Anonymous User]

BCLP (St. Louis office) bonus for 2300 is 90k now. I read the memo too fast and it confused my simple mind. Still well outpacing the market.

New salaries in effect July 1.

What’s the new base salary?

170

These are some massive increases. But I guess it’s on pace with the historic gap between NYC and Midwest wages. STL/KC have been seriously lagging for the past few years.

Yeah this is huge. I wonder how widely this will be matched.

I’m not even sure who else can match it. Shook Hardy and HB come to mind. But, like, can other Midwest firms really shell out that money?

[Anonymous User]

I've heard through the grapevine that Lewis Rice is also raising salaries (though can't confirm to 170k). It'll be hard for the other larger shops in the city to stay at ~140k if BCLP, Polsinelli, and Lewis Rice all raise salaries. Armstrong, TC, and Husch will have a lot of trouble recruiting and retaining good talent at a 30k deficit.

[Anonymous User]

I've heard through the grapevine that Lewis Rice is also raising salaries (though can't confirm to 170k). It'll be hard for the other larger shops in the city to stay at ~140k if BCLP, Polsinelli, and Lewis Rice all raise salaries. Armstrong, TC, and Husch will have a lot of trouble recruiting and retaining good talent at a 30k deficit.

Not just that, it’ll be hard to keep people (specifically WashU grads) from fleeing to larger markets if that gap continues to widen. 140 vs 205 is pretty remarkable, even accounting for COL…

[Anonymous User]

I've heard through the grapevine that Lewis Rice is also raising salaries (though can't confirm to 170k). It'll be hard for the other larger shops in the city to stay at ~140k if BCLP, Polsinelli, and Lewis Rice all raise salaries. Armstrong, TC, and Husch will have a lot of trouble recruiting and retaining good talent at a 30k deficit.

Not just that, it’ll be hard to keep people (specifically WashU grads) from fleeing to larger markets if that gap continues to widen. 140 vs 205 is pretty remarkable, even accounting for COL…

I agree that without a raise, 140 vs. 205 is a huge gap even when taking COL into account. But at the same time, 170 vs. 205, once you take into account COL/taxes, is actually pretty close to being on-par. Obviously the scale is highly compressed. But in the first year or two, they're probably very close.

But within St. Louis and Kansas City, I think we're going to see the top regional firms pull away from the others. There were already some firms that had been called "local biglaw" in the past that have been paying slightly below market. At this point it would take a raise of $40,000+ to catch up. I just don't see it happening.

[Anonymous User]

I've heard through the grapevine that Lewis Rice is also raising salaries (though can't confirm to 170k). It'll be hard for the other larger shops in the city to stay at ~140k if BCLP, Polsinelli, and Lewis Rice all raise salaries. Armstrong, TC, and Husch will have a lot of trouble recruiting and retaining good talent at a 30k deficit.

Not just that, it’ll be hard to keep people (specifically WashU grads) from fleeing to larger markets if that gap continues to widen. 140 vs 205 is pretty remarkable, even accounting for COL…

I agree that without a raise, 140 vs. 205 is a huge gap even when taking COL into account. But at the same time, 170 vs. 205, once you take into account COL/taxes, is actually pretty close to being on-par. Obviously the scale is highly compressed. But in the first year or two, they're probably very close.

But within St. Louis and Kansas City, I think we're going to see the top regional firms pull away from the others. There were already some firms that had been called "local biglaw" in the past that have been paying slightly below market. At this point it would take a raise of $40,000+ to catch up. I just don't see it happening.

Which ones do you consider the top regional firms, if you don’t mind sharing?

[Anonymous User]

I've heard through the grapevine that Lewis Rice is also raising salaries (though can't confirm to 170k). It'll be hard for the other larger shops in the city to stay at ~140k if BCLP, Polsinelli, and Lewis Rice all raise salaries. Armstrong, TC, and Husch will have a lot of trouble recruiting and retaining good talent at a 30k deficit.

Not just that, it’ll be hard to keep people (specifically WashU grads) from fleeing to larger markets if that gap continues to widen. 140 vs 205 is pretty remarkable, even accounting for COL…

I agree that without a raise, 140 vs. 205 is a huge gap even when taking COL into account. But at the same time, 170 vs. 205, once you take into account COL/taxes, is actually pretty close to being on-par. Obviously the scale is highly compressed. But in the first year or two, they're probably very close.

But within St. Louis and Kansas City, I think we're going to see the top regional firms pull away from the others. There were already some firms that had been called "local biglaw" in the past that have been paying slightly below market. At this point it would take a raise of $40,000+ to catch up. I just don't see it happening.

Which ones do you consider the top regional firms, if you don’t mind sharing?

I know St. Louis better than Kansas City. In St. Louis, people have talked about six or seven firms as being "St. Louis biglaw" for a long time. These would be Bryan Cave, Thompson Coburn, Polsinelli, Husch Blackwell, Armstrong Teasdale, Lewis Rice and Greensfelder. (You can find threads on this site from 10+ years ago naming these firms as St. Louis biglaw.) The first six of those were all paying market to first years, i.e. $140,000, prior to last week. Greensfelder's paid a bit below market for a little while now, though. And Sandberg Phoenix has grown to the point where they're now about as big as Lewis Rice and Greensfelder. I'm not sure what they pay.

There are also some boutique firms that are probably more prestigious/more difficult to get hired at, but I'm referring really to the big firms that operate essentially on a "biglaw" model, though obviously on a smaller scale. (BCLP, Husch and Polsinelli are big enough that they probably could be considered actual biglaw.)

[Anonymous User]

Polsinelli raises for current associates are happening this year (ie before Dec 31) per recent firm communication.

[Anonymous User]

TC punted on raises. Management says they are aware of the changes at other firms and will give the associates an update on salaries and bonuses later in the summer. My guess is that they will ultimately match BC on salary (maybe slightly more compressed at the top) but not on bonus structure. That’s basically where they’ve been for the last 10 years.

[Anonymous User]

I've heard through the grapevine that Lewis Rice is also raising salaries (though can't confirm to 170k). It'll be hard for the other larger shops in the city to stay at ~140k if BCLP, Polsinelli, and Lewis Rice all raise salaries. Armstrong, TC, and Husch will have a lot of trouble recruiting and retaining good talent at a 30k deficit.

Not just that, it’ll be hard to keep people (specifically WashU grads) from fleeing to larger markets if that gap continues to widen. 140 vs 205 is pretty remarkable, even accounting for COL…

I agree that without a raise, 140 vs. 205 is a huge gap even when taking COL into account. But at the same time, 170 vs. 205, once you take into account COL/taxes, is actually pretty close to being on-par. Obviously the scale is highly compressed. But in the first year or two, they're probably very close.

But within St. Louis and Kansas City, I think we're going to see the top regional firms pull away from the others. There were already some firms that had been called "local biglaw" in the past that have been paying slightly below market. At this point it would take a raise of $40,000+ to catch up. I just don't see it happening.

Which ones do you consider the top regional firms, if you don’t mind sharing?

I know St. Louis better than Kansas City. In St. Louis, people have talked about six or seven firms as being "St. Louis biglaw" for a long time. These would be Bryan Cave, Thompson Coburn, Polsinelli, Husch Blackwell, Armstrong Teasdale, Lewis Rice and Greensfelder. (You can find threads on this site from 10+ years ago naming these firms as St. Louis biglaw.) The first six of those were all paying market to first years, i.e. $140,000, prior to last week. Greensfelder's paid a bit below market for a little while now, though. And Sandberg Phoenix has grown to the point where they're now about as big as Lewis Rice and Greensfelder. I'm not sure what they pay.

There are also some boutique firms that are probably more prestigious/more difficult to get hired at, but I'm referring really to the big firms that operate essentially on a "biglaw" model, though obviously on a smaller scale. (BCLP, Husch and Polsinelli are big enough that they probably could be considered actual biglaw.)

Agreed that BLCP, HB, and Polsinelli are the only real “Biglaw” firms by non-STL standards. Though if Lewis Rice is raising salaries before HB that obviously complicates the general analysis

[Anonymous User]

As a St. Louis vet, I'd also advise people with options at multiple of these firms to figure out the bonus structure at each firm, too. It's been the case for a while that you can earn a ton more at BCLP than the other firms if you're billing a lot but, just as true, you're less likely to NEED to bill a lot at the other firms, especially on the transactional side. It's all part of the puzzle and, unlike true major-market biglaw, these other factors are not the same firm to firm.

[Anonymous User]

As a St. Louis vet, I'd also advise people with options at multiple of these firms to figure out the bonus structure at each firm, too. It's been the case for a while that you can earn a ton more at BCLP than the other firms if you're billing a lot but, just as true, you're less likely to NEED to bill a lot at the other firms, especially on the transactional side. It's all part of the puzzle and, unlike true major-market biglaw, these other factors are not the same firm to firm.

Also worth considering the chances of making partner at each firm (if that’s something you’re interested in). All StL firms will give you a better shot than firms in major markets, but the chances vary substantially between firms, both due to voluntary attrition and push-out rates. This one is tough to get a great feel for if you’re not familiar with the market, but you can get a decent approximation by looking at the associate to partner ratio. The more partner-heavy, the better the chance of making partner. Lewis Rice is at something like 1:3, TC is at 1:2, and BCLP is about 1:1. Partner salaries are obviously different at each, but very comfortable for StL.

[Anonymous User]

Curious to see what Dowd Bennet does since they were already paying 180k

[Anonymous User]

Curious to see what Dowd Bennet does since they were already paying 180k

My understanding is that was always sort of a nominal thing, since they almost never hire first years. I could be wrong, but my impression was that people join them (a) after clerking or (b) as laterals. No clue what comp looks like for those associates, though I’d have to imagine it’s pretty substantial.