GC at tech start-up - AMA Forum

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GC at tech start-up - AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:28 am

Thought I'd see if I can pay it forward a little and field some questions about my career path if anyone is curious.

My practice area is IP, mainly patent prosecution but also have transactional and litigation experience. My career progression was big law (~4 years) -> IP boutique (~2 years) -> in-house at large, multinational corporation (~4 years) -> currently GC at early stage tech start-up (recently joined).

Pozzo

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Re: GC at tech start-up - AMA

Post by Pozzo » Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:40 am

Thanks for doing this!

Were you corp or lit in biglaw? How do in-house roles in IP-focused industries differ from others, both in what companies are looking for in candidates and what the day to day work is like?

Thanks again.

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Re: GC at tech start-up - AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:46 am

Really appreciate you doing this!

What's your compensation package look like as GC at an early tech-startup? How much of is it equity based?

How did you hear about the early stage tech start-up? Were you recruited to it from a headhunter or did you get in touch based off connections you had previously formed?

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Re: GC at tech start-up - AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:50 am

I've recently made the switch from white shoe M&A practice to an EC/VC firm (Cooley/Fenwick/Gunderson/Wilson/Goodwin/etc.). I'm wondering what someone in your position and your experience thinks about exit opportunities at one of these EC/VC shops vs a white shoe M&A practice.

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Re: GC at tech start-up - AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:52 am

Pozzo wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:40 am
Were you corp or lit in biglaw? How do in-house roles in IP-focused industries differ from others, both in what companies are looking for in candidates and what the day to day work is like?

I was in corporate. In-house roles mainly want flexibility, whether in IP-focused industries or otherwise. They may hire you with one role in mind (e.g., patent prosecution), but they want to be able to lean on you to do a host of related things as the situation comes up. For example, at the large corporation I was expected to do mainly patent prosecution and IP management, but I was well-respected there because I could also tackle M&A, IP lit, licensing and other agreements, data privacy + security, export controls + customs, etc. as the needs called for it. I did not have deep expertise in all those areas, but I had some basic knowledge and was willing to learn.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: GC at tech start-up - AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:53 am

Edit: double post

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Re: GC at tech start-up - AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:02 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:46 am
Really appreciate you doing this!

What's your compensation package look like as GC at an early tech-startup? How much of is it equity based?

How did you hear about the early stage tech start-up? Were you recruited to it from a headhunter or did you get in touch based off connections you had previously formed?

My comp package is salary and equity, no bonus or 401k match. The ratio of salary to equity is variable depending on which part you push for during negotiation - you usually compromise one for the other. At the early stage, equity is in terms of fully diluted shares, not RSUs or the like. But generally in performance reviews you can get more equity in addition to higher salary, so my thought was to weigh salary heavier than equity in negotiations (if the company goes belly up, equity means squat).

I heard about the position from a job posting, although they also used a recruiter. I didn't know anyone at the company. Nobody there had any real connections to the legal industry, so they didn't try to use their network.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: GC at tech start-up - AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:10 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:50 am
I've recently made the switch from white shoe M&A practice to an EC/VC firm (Cooley/Fenwick/Gunderson/Wilson/Goodwin/etc.). I'm wondering what someone in your position and your experience thinks about exit opportunities at one of these EC/VC shops vs a white shoe M&A practice.

Exit opportunities are what you make of them, no matter at what firm. That said, since you usually work on a wide variety of legal issues for a client in the EC/VC space rather than one specific topic for a large corporation, you are more intimately familiar with all of the operations of EC/VC clients, and therefore it may be easier to make connections and convince them to bring you on board. The key is to become a trusted resource for the client, so when they reach the point that they can save money by hiring a lawyer rather than paying for outside counsel, they will naturally think of you.

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Re: GC at tech start-up - AMA

Post by ElCuervo » Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:12 am

Thanks for taking the time to do this. I want to ask a different type of question, and I think it would be really interesting to hear your thought process.

Now that you're GC, and having had prior in-house experience, how are you going to decide who to hire as outside counsel when/if the time comes? Do you already have friends/associates/former colleagues hitting you up for work, and you'll just field those requests for work when the time comes, or do you think you'll proactively reach out to people you have in mind when specific issues arise? Do you think as a young startup you anticipate not hiring outside counsel often at all, if possible?

I realize this could totally depend on the specific situation you're dealing with. I'd be especially interested in your thought process when faced with a regulatory/enforcement/investigations issue but would love to hear your thoughts on hiring outside counsel generally.

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Re: GC at tech start-up - AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:47 am

ElCuervo wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:12 am
Thanks for taking the time to do this. I want to ask a different type of question, and I think it would be really interesting to hear your thought process.

Now that you're GC, and having had prior in-house experience, how are you going to decide who to hire as outside counsel when/if the time comes? Do you already have friends/associates/former colleagues hitting you up for work, and you'll just field those requests for work when the time comes, or do you think you'll proactively reach out to people you have in mind when specific issues arise? Do you think as a young startup you anticipate not hiring outside counsel often at all, if possible?

I realize this could totally depend on the specific situation you're dealing with. I'd be especially interested in your thought process when faced with a regulatory/enforcement/investigations issue but would love to hear your thoughts on hiring outside counsel generally.

You actually touched on something pretty amusing. It's funny how many people in my network, whether I know them well or not, came out of the woodwork once my hiring was announced on LinkedIn to ask if I would use them as outside counsel or hire them to work under me.

When I came in, the company was already using outside counsel. So, not wanting to rock the boat, I am working with them for the time being. They are an expensive big law firm, so I am going to evaluate their performance versus cost and also our needs. If there is a mismatch, I will look for additional counsel, and I will probably draw from my network. At this stage in my career, I know a host of partners across a number of firms and practice areas, so it's a matter of going to firms/people I know that are experts in the fields of law that we need, and then requesting RFPs.

There are partners/colleagues that regularly contact me just to catch up without pressuring me for work. I appreciate that, because it shows they care about me and my career, and not just for the money I can bring in for them. That doesn't necessarily mean that I'll use them when the time comes, but it does put them near the front of the line.

Cost is always a big factor when selecting outside counsel. For example, our outside counsel does IP work for us right now, at big law rates. There are many smaller firms that can do the same work at a lower price, so at some point in the future I probably want to move that work to another firm. However, I'll need to build a case for switching and that takes time, since I'll need the C-suite to buy into these decisions.

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Re: GC at tech start-up - AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:19 pm

From a skills standpoint, do you think your IP experience made it easier to lateral to a tech start up than someone in the generalist EC/VC space?

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Re: GC at tech start-up - AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:19 pm
From a skills standpoint, do you think your IP experience made it easier to lateral to a tech start up than someone in the generalist EC/VC space?

No, not necessarily. I think I was a special case. They were actually initially looking for IP counsel, and I upsold myself into a GC role. I said I was willing to learn about all the legal aspects pertinent to the company, manage outside counsel on matters that I have no expertise in, and grow my expertise over time. I had plenty of experience in the IP and IP-related agreements that they needed the most help in, and they trusted that I would be able to learn everything else over time. If this company were not so IP-centric and were looking for more general corporate experience, I would probably not have been considered.

Inhousefuture

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Re: GC at tech start-up - AMA

Post by Inhousefuture » Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:57 pm

For In-House Start-up Roles including yours, what percentage of the work is pure legal and what percent if any is business or business-adjacent? Do Start-up in house counsels have a shot at switching over to nonlegal roles or perhaps even becoming startup co-founders? How does it feel psychologically to have some equity with an upside rather than just a salary? What is WL balance like?

Thanks

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Re: GC at tech start-up - AMA

Post by soft blue » Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:33 pm

What's your budgeting process? Do you have an annual budget for everything, do you budget matter-by-matter, something else entirely? Do you have a Westlaw/Lexis sub?

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Re: GC at tech start-up - AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:28 pm

Inhousefuture wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:57 pm
For In-House Start-up Roles including yours, what percentage of the work is pure legal and what percent if any is business or business-adjacent? Do Start-up in house counsels have a shot at switching over to nonlegal roles or perhaps even becoming startup co-founders? How does it feel psychologically to have some equity with an upside rather than just a salary? What is WL balance like?

Thanks

I would say my role is 75-80% purely legal. The rest is advising on business decisions from a legal perspective. For example, how to engage with potential partners/collaborators while protecting our interests, how to handle competitors, best practices for the company as a whole, etc.

Whether in-house counsel can jump into other roles is highly dependent on the company, their un-met needs, and your skills. They presumably hired you because they need a lawyer, so you can't just abandon your legal duties immediately. More likely, over time you can see what deficits they may have and start picking that up, and eventually discuss migrating your role. In a start-up, flexibility and initiative are good, but you have to make sure not to step on someone else's toes by taking their responsibilities away from them. You start by proving you are a good lawyer, and then proving you can fulfill other needs at the company. You cannot become a co-founder after the fact, but being an early employee is almost as good.

I treat equity like a lottery ticket - I'm not banking on it at all, but it's nice that it's there as a potential pay-out. It was a risk to take this position. My all-in comp at my last employer is higher and the job was cushy, but I moved for the title, career growth, and possibility of it all succeeding. I admit it is exciting to think about cashing it in if the company goes big, but I try not to get too carried away with it.

W/L balance is overall good, but that is partly because of the company culture. We work hard, but we respect each other's time. I will say that it can vary between slow and intense for me. When they need something, they usually they need it quick. But sometimes other people are bottlenecks and I get down time. However, since I'm the only lawyer, I usually can fill my time by essentially planning, organizing, and building out the "legal department" as I want it. For example, if I have spare time I may organize documents, create SOPs, or generate agreement templates.

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Re: GC at tech start-up - AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:36 pm

soft blue wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:33 pm
What's your budgeting process? Do you have an annual budget for everything, do you budget matter-by-matter, something else entirely? Do you have a Westlaw/Lexis sub?

I have not been around long enough to tackle making the next annual budget, but yes there is an annual legal budget that is split between IP and non-IP. The budget is not a hard and fast thing at an early stage start-up, it's more like a target. One of my responsibilities is of course to monitor outside counsel spend and find ways to make our interactions with them more cost-effective.

I don't have a Westlaw/Lexis subscription, and I probably won't need one for a while. It's not necessary for IP matters, and on the corporate side we mostly draft and negotiate industry-standard agreements. There isn't much need to dive into case law. At any rate, outside counsel can inform us of any case developments that may affect contract terms.

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Re: GC at tech start-up - AMA

Post by johndhi » Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:08 pm

Are you glad you made the switch?

Why do you need to go to the board to switch to a different IP counsel? Shouldn't you control that?

How big is your team?

The one experience area I lack is "managing the board" or managing the C-Suite. how have you found that experience -- do you feel like you need to be a neutral party there, have an important role, or do you just feel like one of the other business leads?

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Re: GC at tech start-up - AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:20 pm

johndhi wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:08 pm
Are you glad you made the switch?

Why do you need to go to the board to switch to a different IP counsel? Shouldn't you control that?

How big is your team?

The one experience area I lack is "managing the board" or managing the C-Suite. how have you found that experience -- do you feel like you need to be a neutral party there, have an important role, or do you just feel like one of the other business leads?

So far, I'm glad I made the switch. While I lose the support of a large legal department and infrastructure, I like being nimble and not tied up in red tape all the time. I am also building a legal department from scratch, implementing all the good parts from my prior job and improving on things I thought were not as good. I am a team of one - it's an early stage start-up, so they only need one in-house lawyer to handle everything. Presumably as the company grows I will hire more people.

I didn't say I needed the board's consent. I need approval from the C-suite to switch counsel, and this is because they already had outside counsel they were using as a one-stop shop. If I were to peel away the IP work to another firm, the corporate work would remain with current outside counsel, and the C-suite thinks highly of current outside counsel. So the problem is not so much that I don't have control of the decision, but that I have to manage things politically to make sure C-suite is comfortable switching some of the work while preserving the relationship with the corporate side of the outside counsel team, and also having C-suite trust my judgment.

I don't (yet) directly interact with the board. Managing the C-suite requires you to be a bit of a chameleon. When interacting with them collectively, I act as a neutral party, advising them of the legal pros and cons of their decisions. When interacting with them individually, I try to act as a trusted confidant and a sounding board. I also try to understand their way of working and motivations. By figuring out how to best interact with each C-suite member, I can better serve them in their individual roles and also help them reach consensus on C-suite decisions.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Inhousefuture

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Re: GC at tech start-up - AMA

Post by Inhousefuture » Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:32 am

How hard would you say it is in a general sense to get a job at a startup or established tech style company as an attorney? Do startup or multinational corporate in-house attorneys (which you also were) tend to usually be from Big Law? Is it advisable to stop at a boutique on the way? Finally, do you think going to law school for the purpose of one day working in house makes sense?

Thanks

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Re: GC at tech start-up - AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:28 am

Inhousefuture wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:32 am
How hard would you say it is in a general sense to get a job at a startup or established tech style company as an attorney? Do startup or multinational corporate in-house attorneys (which you also were) tend to usually be from Big Law? Is it advisable to stop at a boutique on the way? Finally, do you think going to law school for the purpose of one day working in house makes sense?

Thanks

Generally, it is tough to go in-house just because it’s a numbers game. There are less in-house attorney positions than there are attorneys seeking to go in-house. I know from my current and prior positions, as well as a few in-house positions for which I was a finalist but didn’t get, that the number of applicants they got for one position ranged from several dozen to over 100. Going to a startup is even tougher because they need so few lawyers when they are small.

Generally, it is easier to go in-house from big law than elsewhere, but it’s not overwhelmingly in favor of big law applicants. I know plenty of in-house counsel that came from mid or small size firms. I’d say that the preference for big law comes from blue chip / elite companies, less so at other companies. But generally the overriding factor is your work experience, not where you came from.

With respect to boutiques, it’s less about whether it’s good to stop there and more what experience you will get no matter what firm you are at. In-house positions tend to value flexibility and a wide range of work experience since in-house positions are generalist rather than specialist. If your practice is limited to one particular thing and you don’t have experience picking up a variety of work, you will be less attractive to companies.

You can aim to go in-house entering law school, but you should remain flexible rather than be fixated. You never know where your career and life will take you, and you shouldn’t close off interesting opportunities just because you’ve set your sights in-house. Also, you will likely face setbacks along the way, and you have to learn to take things in stride rather than constantly worry that you aren’t achieving your goal. Plenty of people arrive in-house through convoluted ways. Again, it’s a matter of getting good legal experience. If you have that, opportunities will follow.

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